VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Oseas]

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?1Cor.14:8

 

[keras]

Rev 12:17 is how the 2nd half’s GM are killed. All of the GM are converted believers. So, they are unbelievers before the Trib. They are converted during the Trib.

That you are wildly incorrect, is plainly seen by the impossibility of unbelievers becoming Christians under the rule of the Anti-Christ beast.
Revelation 13:8 says; All the world will follow after the beast........ All the secular world, that is.

Revelation 12 tells how the Christian people; the great multitude, are divided into two halves, at the commencement of the Great Trib; the last three and a half years before Jesus Returns.
The faithful ones will be taken to a place of safety on earth and the ones who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, as stated in Rev 12:17.

1 Peter 4 is not about the Trib. It’s about daily living and the trials and tribulations we face in daily life.

How many fiery trials have you faced?
No; Peter is referring to the terrible Sixth Seal, the forthcoming great test of our faith and many who believed false doctrines will fail it. Isaiah 66:15-17

There is no verse that proves believers enter the Trib.

Revelation 13:7 The 'beast' was allowed to wage war on Gods people and defeat them...... Also Daniel 7:25

The false idea of a pre-trib rapture to heaven is thoroughly debunked. You have fallen for a lie, which is not so bad, but you strongly promote and teach that lie. God will not be happy with you!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That you are wildly incorrect, is plainly seen by the impossibility of unbelievers becoming Christians under the rule of the Anti-Christ beast.
Revelation 13:8 says; All the world will follow after the beast........ All the secular world, that is.

Revelation 12 tells how the Christian people; the great multitude, are divided into two halves, at the commencement of the Great Trib; the last three and a half years before Jesus Returns.
The faithful ones will be taken to a place of safety on earth and the ones who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, as stated in Rev 12:17.

How many fiery trials have you faced?
No; Peter is referring to the terrible Sixth Seal, the forthcoming great test of our faith and many who believed false doctrines will fail it. Isaiah 66:15-17

Revelation 13:7 The 'beast' was allowed to wage war on Gods people and defeat them...... Also Daniel 7:25

The false idea of a pre-trib rapture to heaven is thoroughly debunked. You have fallen for a lie, which is not so bad, but you strongly promote and teach that lie. God will not be happy with you!

Rev 6:9-11 is the first half of the GM. Rev 20:4 is the 2nd half of the GM. They are all resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They then appear in Rev 7:9-17, in Heaven. They will serve Jesus in the MK.

All as of the GM were unbelievers before being converted by the 144k. You never give the 144k any credit for the greatest revival in the Trib.

Rev 13:7 is about the killing of the 2nd half of the GM. Those are the martyrs in Rev 20:4. They entered the Trib as unbelievers and were converted by the 144k. Their conversion and testimony of Jesus Christ rightly labels them as saints. They are killed by the beast. Their souls end up in Heaven.

I’m still waiting for one verse that says believers will enter the Trib.

“

 

[keras]

Rev 6:9-11 is the first half of the GM. Rev 20:4 is the 2nd half of the GM. They are all resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They then appear in Rev 7:9-17, in Heaven. They will serve Jesus in the MK.

Opinionated nonsense.
Rev 6:9-11 is all the martyrs from Stephen.
No one is in heaven in Rev 7, all of that chapter describes earthly scenes.

All as of the GM were unbelievers before being converted by the 144k. You never give the 144k any credit for the greatest revival in the Trib.

I do not see any verse saying the 144k convert anybody to Christianity. They just proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

I’m still waiting for one verse that says believers will enter the Trib.

Are Gods people not believers? Rev 13:7 and Daniel 7:25
THEY will be on earth, if you are a believer, why do you think you won't be here?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That you are wildly incorrect, is plainly seen by the impossibility of unbelievers becoming Christians under the rule of the Anti-Christ beast.
Revelation 13:8 says; All the world will follow after the beast........ All the secular world, that is.

Revelation 12 tells how the Christian people; the great multitude, are divided into two halves, at the commencement of the Great Trib; the last three and a half years before Jesus Returns.
The faithful ones will be taken to a place of safety on earth and the ones who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, as stated in Rev 12:17.

How many fiery trials have you faced?
No; Peter is referring to the terrible Sixth Seal, the forthcoming great test of our faith and many who believed false doctrines will fail it. Isaiah 66:15-17

Revelation 13:7 The 'beast' was allowed to wage war on Gods people and defeat them...... Also Daniel 7:25

The false idea of a pre-trib rapture to heaven is thoroughly debunked. You have fallen for a lie, which is not so bad, but you strongly promote and teach that lie. God will not be happy with you!

You never factor in the 144k, who are God’s servants for the greatest revival in the Trib, evidenced by Rev 7.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Opinionated nonsense.
Rev 6:9-11 is all the martyrs from Stephen.
No one is in heaven in Rev 7, all of that chapter describes earthly scenes.

I do not see any verse saying the 144k convert anybody to Christianity. They just proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

Are Gods people not believers? Rev 13:7 and Daniel 7:25
THEY will be on earth, if you are a believer, why do you think you won't be here?

You also never factor in the 2W. They, too, proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are discounting their tremendous efforts and those of the 144k. Rev 7 is about the greatest revival in the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That you are wildly incorrect, is plainly seen by the impossibility of unbelievers becoming Christians under the rule of the Anti-Christ beast.
Revelation 13:8 says; All the world will follow after the beast........ All the secular world, that is.

Revelation 12 tells how the Christian people; the great multitude, are divided into two halves, at the commencement of the Great Trib; the last three and a half years before Jesus Returns.
The faithful ones will be taken to a place of safety on earth and the ones who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, as stated in Rev 12:17.

How many fiery trials have you faced?
No; Peter is referring to the terrible Sixth Seal, the forthcoming great test of our faith and many who believed false doctrines will fail it. Isaiah 66:15-17

Revelation 13:7 The 'beast' was allowed to wage war on Gods people and defeat them...... Also Daniel 7:25

The false idea of a pre-trib rapture to heaven is thoroughly debunked. You have fallen for a lie, which is not so bad, but you strongly promote and teach that lie. God will not be happy with you!

Rev 13:7 are the new converts in the Trib.

The first group of new converts becomes the first group of the GM in Rev 6:9-11. They are slain after proclaiming “the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.”

The second group of new converts is found slain in Rev 20:4 “because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Opinionated nonsense.
Rev 6:9-11 is all the martyrs from Stephen.
No one is in heaven in Rev 7, all of that chapter describes earthly scenes.

I do not see any verse saying the 144k convert anybody to Christianity. They just proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

Are Gods people not believers? Rev 13:7 and Daniel 7:25
THEY will be on earth, if you are a believer, why do you think you won't be here?

The GM is in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

The 144k saves the GM. Rev 7:1-8 is the celebration of their tremendous achievement.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That you are wildly incorrect, is plainly seen by the impossibility of unbelievers becoming Christians under the rule of the Anti-Christ beast.
Revelation 13:8 says; All the world will follow after the beast........ All the secular world, that is.

Revelation 12 tells how the Christian people; the great multitude, are divided into two halves, at the commencement of the Great Trib; the last three and a half years before Jesus Returns.
The faithful ones will be taken to a place of safety on earth and the ones who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, as stated in Rev 12:17.

How many fiery trials have you faced?
No; Peter is referring to the terrible Sixth Seal, the forthcoming great test of our faith and many who believed false doctrines will fail it. Isaiah 66:15-17

Revelation 13:7 The 'beast' was allowed to wage war on Gods people and defeat them...... Also Daniel 7:25

The false idea of a pre-trib rapture to heaven is thoroughly debunked. You have fallen for a lie, which is not so bad, but you strongly promote and teach that lie. God will not be happy with you!

The rapture is proven by Acts 1:9-11 to be the next prophecy to occur. 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 3:10 prove we are raptured pre-Trib.

Acts 1:9-11 are all about Jesus being raptured to Heaven, and that His next return will be exclusively for the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10’s “delivers us” is about rapturing us before the Trib. The same goes for Rev 3:10, as we are kept “from the hour of trial” that is only directed at “those who dwell on earth.” “Those” are proven to be unbelievers per Rev 6:10.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The rapture is proven by Acts 1:9-11 to be the next prophecy to occur. 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 3:10 prove we are raptured pre-Trib.

Acts 1:9-11 are all about Jesus being raptured to Heaven, and that His next return will be exclusively for the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10’s “delivers us” is about rapturing us before the Trib. The same goes for Rev 3:10, as we are kept “from the hour of trial” that is only directed at “those who dwell on earth.” “Those” are proven to be unbelievers per Rev 6:10.

Opinionated nonsense.
Rev 6:9-11 is all the martyrs from Stephen.
No one is in heaven in Rev 7, all of that chapter describes earthly scenes.

I do not see any verse saying the 144k convert anybody to Christianity. They just proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

Are Gods people not believers? Rev 13:7 and Daniel 7:25
THEY will be on earth, if you are a believer, why do you think you won't be here?

Here’s definitive proof that “those who dwell on the earth” are only unbelievers. This is just a first biblical accounting, but this an accounting from the 5th seal. That might as well be an accounting in day 1 of the Trib because the seals are held to be opened in relatively quick succession. And no; no seals have been opened, yet.

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Here’s definitive proof that the 144k (God’s evangelical servants for most of the Trib) and unbelievers, are the only folks on Earth at the time of Rev 9:4:

Rev 9:4 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Therefore, it is proven from Rev 6:10 that only unbelievers enter the Trib. That could only be possible from a pre-Trib rapture.

Many of those unbelievers left behind after the pre-Trib rapture, will see their grave mistakes in rejecting Jesus. They will repent and turn to God for forgiveness. They are the martyrs in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4.

You are missing the relevance of Rev 6:11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Those “fellow servants and brothers” are the martyrs in Rev 20:4. These two groups complete “the number” (Rev 6:11) required for the GM. They are all resurrected together in the last sentence to Rev 20:4. They then appear together in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

The 144k are taken to Heaven in Rev 14:3 (ESV): and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

In Acts 1:9-11, the pre-Trib rapture is prophesied to occur in Jesus’ next return.

 

[keras]

You never factor in the 144k, who are God’s servants for the greatest revival in the Trib, evidenced by Rev 7.

The 144k are just messengers. Isaiah 66:10
There will be no revival during the 3 1/2 years of the GT and of world control by the 'beast'. Rev 13:1-18

You need to read the Bible Prophesies for what they actually say, not for what suits your false beliefs.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The 144k are just messengers. Isaiah 66:10
There will be no revival during the 3 1/2 years of the GT and of world control by the 'beast'. Rev 13:1-18

You need to read the Bible Prophesies for what they actually say, not for what suits your false beliefs.

Your verse from Isaiah appears to be the wrong verse you meant to show.

Rev 7:3-4 (NLT): “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

4 And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

Mere “messengers” aren’t so highly honored with an interruption of the GT (Rev 7:1-2,14), and later raptured to Heaven (Rev 17:

Rev 9:4 (NLT):
They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

As of Rev 9, the 144k are busy spreading the gospel of Jesus, to unbelievers.

As of Rev 14:3 (NLT), they are raptured to Heaven.

If they are “messengers,” they are messengers of God.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The 144k are just messengers. Isaiah 66:10
There will be no revival during the 3 1/2 years of the GT and of world control by the 'beast'. Rev 13:1-18

You need to read the Bible Prophesies for what they actually say, not for what suits your false beliefs.

All of Rev 7 is a celebration of the 144k and their incredible accomplishment of spreading the gospel that saved a multitude.

 

[keras]

Your verse from Isaiah appears to be the wrong verse you meant to show.

Sorry: Isaiah 66:19

Mere “messengers” aren’t so highly honored with an interruption of the GT (Rev 7:1-2,14), and later raptured to Heaven (Rev 17:

You have no say in who is honoured and who is not,
Going to heaven is not an option for them, or for anyone.

As of Rev 14:3 (NLT), they are raptured to Heaven.

If they are “messengers,” they are messengers of God.

The great choir in heaven are angels.
A messenger, as the 144k are, have to convey their message. They have to be on earth.

All of Rev 7 is a celebration of the 144k and their incredible accomplishment of spreading the gospel that saved a multitude.

Your wrong ideas are glaringly evident, - If the Great multitude are saved by the 144k, during the GT, then according to you, Revelation 7 is when Jesus Returns.
A belief that is easily refuted, as the 144k are only just selected then.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Sorry: Isaiah 66:19

You have no say in who is honoured and who is not,
Going to heaven is not an option for them, or for anyone.

The great choir in heaven are angels.
A messenger, as the 144k are, have to convey their message. They have to be on earth.

Your wrong ideas are glaringly evident, - If the Great multitude are saved by the 144k, during the GT, then according to you, Revelation 7 is when Jesus Returns.
A belief that is easily refuted, as the 144k are only just selected then.

Rev 14:3 is about the 144k being raptured to Heaven and singing a song only they had learned:

Rev 14:3 (NKJV): They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

“… and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.”

The 144k are “redeemed from the earth” means they are raptured to Heaven.

Isaiah 66 is about after the Jews were led out of captivity, continuing their rejection of Jesus.

Rev 7 is an interruption of the GT to acknowledge the glorious achievement of the 144k, in evangelizing to and leading to God a multitude of new converts from the Trib.

The GT is interrupted to honor the 144k:

Rev 7:3-4 (NIV): “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Then:

Rev 7:9 (NIV): After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

They’re all in Heaven:

Rev 7:15 (NIV):

15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.

 

[keras]

Rev 14:3 is about the 144k being raptured to Heaven and singing a song only they had learned:

Rev 14:3 (NKJV): They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

“… and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.”

The 144k are “redeemed from the earth” means they are raptured to Heaven.

Isaiah 66 is about after the Jews were led out of captivity, continuing their rejection of Jesus.

Rev 7 is an interruption of the GT to acknowledge the glorious achievement of the 144k, in evangelizing to and leading to God a multitude of new converts from the Trib.

The GT is interrupted to honor the 144k:

Rev 7:3-4 (NIV): “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Then:

Rev 7:9 (NIV): After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

They’re all in Heaven:

Rev 7:15 (NIV):

15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.

All imaginative guesswork.
NOWHERE in scriptures is it said that anyone goes to live in heaven. John, Elijah and the two Witnesses are said to go to heaven, but it is never stated for anyone that they will stay there and live in heaven. John came back to Patmos. Elijah was on earth afterward; 2 Chronicles 21:12, and
the 2W will go with Jesus to Jerusalem.

Your Revelation 7:15-17 quote describes Eternity, when God comes to dwell with mankind. Proved by how it is then: He will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

All imaginative guesswork.
NOWHERE in scriptures is it said that anyone goes to live in heaven. John, Elijah and the two Witnesses are said to go to heaven, but it is never stated for anyone that they will stay there and live in heaven. John came back to Patmos. Elijah was on earth afterward; 2 Chronicles 21:12, and
the 2W will go with Jesus to Jerusalem.

Your Revelation 7:15-17 quote describes Eternity, when God comes to dwell with mankind. Proved by how it is then: He will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21

All imaginative guesswork.
NOWHERE in scriptures is it said that anyone goes to live in heaven. John, Elijah and the two Witnesses are said to go to heaven, but it is never stated for anyone that they will stay there and live in heaven. John came back to Patmos. Elijah was on earth afterward; 2 Chronicles 21:12, and
the 2W will go with Jesus to Jerusalem.

Your Revelation 7:15-17 quote describes Eternity, when God comes to dwell with mankind. Proved by how it is then: He will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

As for the GM going to Heaven, that you call "imaginative guesswork," what do these words mean in Rev 7:15?

15 Therefore,

they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.

Where are the 144k in Rev 14:3? Rev 14:3 (NKJV): They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; ...

 

[Oseas]

There are interesting events in the sermon of JESUS described in Matthew 24:

1st EVENT-DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF JERUSALEM (DEN OF THIEVES)
1- When our Lord came out from the Temple, the disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the Temple. (Certainty they were exultant and excited and talked with the Lord of the greatness and beauty of the Temple)
2- And JESUS said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
See, the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. What JESUS said above was LITERALLY fulfilled in the year 70AD, around 40 years after His ascension. There should NEVER AGAIN be built another similar man-made Temple, the old Temple-the den of the thieves- never came to be rebuilt as it had been before.
Notice that concerning the destruction of the Temple", it has nothing to do with Mount Olives; Mount Olives has to do only with the destruction of the world of Devil in this current time, now, even now, from now on.
The NATION of Israel, included the Temple-the den of thieves- , were destroyed. Israel was destroyed from 70 to 1948AD, 1878 years of severe punishments and curses -Deuteronomy 28:15-68- and the Temple -the den of thieves- there should never again be built another. The father of the Jews-John 8:44- will be cast down into the bottomless pit, that he should deceive the nations no more-Revelation 20:1-4.

2nd EVENT- DESTRUCTION OF THE DEVIL's WORLD & SIGNS OF JESUS's COMING
3 And JESUS sat upon the mount of Olives. The disciples came unto Him privately, saying: Tell us, when shall these things be?
1- What shall be the sign of thy coming?
2- And of the END of the world?

4And Jesus answered the questions above and gave a list of signs unto them,saying the things that AT FIRST will happen:
(1) Take heed that no man deceive you;
(2) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (John 5:43-48); and shall deceive many;
(3) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet;
(4) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
(5) and there shall be famines;
(6) and pestilences;
(7) and earthquakes, in divers places;
And JESUS warned: All these are the beginning of sorrows. At first, all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet. <--> In fact, the period of sorrows is a PRE-TRIBULATION PERIOD.

JESUS continued prophesying and warning His people -His Church- about the signs of His coming, and END of the world of Devil from now on, or in this current time, saying what shall happen with His people in this period of sorrows:
(1) they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you;
(2) and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake;
(3) then shall many be offended;
(4) and shall betray one another;
(5) and shall hate one another.
(6) many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
(7) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


The promise of our Lord JESUS
He that shall endure unto the END of the world, the same shall be saved,
the gospel of the kingdom of GOD shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all NATIONS;
Then shall the END come; So,

when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place-JERUSALEM-, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.-Daniel 12:1-
except these days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened. So

if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; BELIEVE NOT, -John 5:43-47-.for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before.
Get ready

 

[keras]

Where are the 144k in Rev 14:3? Rev 14:3 (NKJV): They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; ...

On earth.
It is never said the 144k go to heaven, you make that up,

As for the GM going to Heaven, that you call "imaginative guesswork," what do these words mean in Rev 7:15?

I have already proved to you that Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy about Eternity, THEN: God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

There is no Biblical support for a rapture to heaven, it is a false teaching and just because millions have fallen for it, that does not give it any credibility.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

On earth.
It is never said the 144k go to heaven, you make that up,

I have already proved to you that Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy about Eternity, THEN: God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

There is no Biblical support for a rapture to heaven, it is a false teaching and just because millions have fallen for it, that does not give it any credibility.

Tell me, who are “they” in Rev 7:15?

Where’s the throne of God in Rev 14::3?