Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[stevevw]

Right. But if we don't do it like Western Christian Culture dictates we're doing it wrong and giving in to our animal instincts and betraying the lack of moral health in our society.

You certainly have some bee in your bonnet over the west. Every reply a dig at the west.

The Christian truth principles and values I am talking about that the west supports are not exclusively western. In fact Christianity stems from the Jews, from the middle east spreading to the Gentiles.

But it is not any cultures truth but transcedent truths and values that all humans know. Its just the west were most prominent in supporting these. They are also natural truths in that Gods order is also natures order. So they are in harmony with the natural order, moral truths which allow humans and society to live together in relative peace and order.

The alternative beliefs I am talking about that have replaced these truths in modern society are what is threatening that order.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You certainly have some bee in your bonnet over the west. Every reply a dig at the west.

I think it's pretty clear that they (I heard "he" in another thread, but I don't know for sure) don't like your association of these cultural preferences of yours (such as the ones you express in the OP) with Christianity.

The Christian truth principles and values I am talking about that the west supports are not exclusively western. In fact Christianity stems from the Jews, from the middle east spreading to the Gentiles.

This is why I don't associate "Western civilization" with Christianity just because it invaded by it. 1600 years influencing Western civ seems like a good run. I favor restoration.

But it is not any cultures truth but transcedent truths and values that all humans know. Its just the west were most prominent in supporting these. They are also natural truths in that Gods order is also natures order. So they are in harmony with the natural order, moral truths which allow humans and society to live together in relative peace and order.

If they are truly transcendent then they aren't Christian, but human.

The alternative beliefs I am talking about that have replaced these truths in modern society are what is threatening that order.

We could go back to discussing these alternative views.

 

[BCP1928]

You certainly have some bee in your bonnet over the west. Every reply a dig at the west.

The Christian truth principles and values I am talking about that the west supports are not exclusively western. In fact Christianity stems from the Jews, from the middle east spreading to the Gentiles.

But it is not any cultures truth but transcedent truths and values that all humans know. Its just the west were most prominent in supporting these.

Generally against the best efforts of the Church.

They are also natural truths in that Gods order is also natures order. So they are in harmony with the natural order, moral truths which allow humans and society to live together in relative peace and order.

The alternative beliefs I am talking about that have replaced these truths in modern society are what is threatening that order.

Perhaps you better lit them again. What are these "truths" that are being replaced? From the way you go on one would think they all have to do with how we do sex.

 

[stevevw]

Generally against the best efforts of the Church.

Yes the church corruped Christs church by becoming to controlling, sticking their fingers in the money jar. Power went to their heads. That seems to be a human tendency as well. We cannot be as one equal in Christ.

But it was also that Christian truth that we are all made in Gods image with natural unalienable rights that set in motion human rights like equality and freedom of speech and belief.

Perhaps you better lit them again. What are these "truths" that are being replaced? From the way you go on one would think they all have to do with how we do sex.

Lol, no. I mention them earlier. Think about the west and what it represents. Why did most people in the world who were oppressed, lacked freedom and opprotunity long for, the US of A lol. I know it has been idolised. But fundementally the US represented what all western nations aspired to.

The freedoms we have come to know such as freedom of speech, belief, political views, conscience, Rule of law, Justice, not to be arbitrarily detained, tortured. To have the right to a decent education, health and to live in peace and order. Democracy, government by the people and for the people.

The idea that you can work hard and sacrifice make something of your life and to support your family. The value of each individual as a unique being, dignity. Charity, helping others, welfare, education, hospitals, charities, missionaries ect ect wanting to make a differences to others. Sacrificing for others. Enlightenment, rationality, science and the benefits to brings.

Though these are being eroded.

Why do you think most disadvantaged people around the world in non westernised nations want to come to western nations. Though I don't think things are the same anymore. The US has millions of people entering the country trying to get a better life as they know the same opportunities and rights are not afforded them.

Though like I said these same truths, rights and values have been eroded and it also doesn't mean that the US and other western nations have not been the best and worst of humankind.

Like the Church can be evil and yet Christ church as the same time western christianity, the path for which Christ early church emerged from has often gone astray and been corrupted. But at the same time Christ church has always been there upholding these truths and values.

 

[stevevw]

I think it's pretty clear that they (I heard "he" in another thread, but I don't know for sure) don't like your association of these cultural preferences of yours (such as the ones you express in the OP) with Christianity.

I cannot help what others feel about the associations. These are just observations of society that people make. How culture changes, how it compares to the past, how moral mores have changed.

I am not the first to make the observation and plenty have including from a non religious perspecvtive such as through anthropology, evolution, genetics, cross cultural psychology which is my area of interest.

This is why I don't associate "Western civilization" with Christianity just because it invaded by it. 1600 years influencing Western civ seems like a good run. I favor restoration.

So you agree that the west was the vehicle for which Christianity was brought to the world. We can't just reject our own history because of the bad stuff that happened. Nor make the bad stuff the only stuff to be fffocused on.

I think its important to remember the truths and values we learnt and keep hold of them, protect them and remind ourselves of them as they are what will keep our sanity, morality and order.

They have been tried and tested and were realised through a lot of mistakes and hardships so we know they work and hold true. Once we let them slip then we begin to decend into chaos. Which is beginning to happen already as we are seeing with the divisions and antagonism between people and groups.

If they are truly transcendent then they aren't Christian, but human.

No there not human because they transcend human ideas and values. Like the natural unalienable rights such as the right to life. This truth transcends any single human, or group or States ideas about rights and human worth. We recognise the truth is law a law of nature and defying it can lead to societies downfall.

Like the right to a free conscience. No one can make a measure or create a value that dictates to another that they have no right to their own freedom of conscience. Its a self evident and transcedent truth that goes with being human. Sure you can deny it but we do at our own peril.

Like reality, our lived reality, our embodied reality. No one can create some human made nature and order for humans or change nature. Like physical reality, we defy it at our own peril. We create disorder when we play god and mess with nature.

We could go back to discussing these alternative views.

Yeah why not, theres so many. The alien saga got everyone excited hoping that some starman was going to visit. But that seemed to have died down.

I reckon its going to be virtual reality and Ai. That is going to be the next big godlike belief. Belief in the power and magic of Ai. I mean we can create Ai gods with supernatural like abilities. A growing number are so immersed in the digital world I don't think they would be able to tell the difference lol. Its scary really.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am interested in this as I was speaking to some friends the other day about how especially in the media, Hollywood, Music and entertainment there seems to be this pagan or even Satanic ritualistism going on. Things like wearing these head dresses with goat horns and other pagan symbols. Its alwats very provocative and sexual as well. Almost a celebration of our animalistic side.

I think I know what is happening. Just loike in the days when people defied God they turned to nature, to animals and nature itself like Stone idols. Now that modern society is rejecting God this same belief is coming back. It may seem natural for people to worship nature as god. But primarily when this happens its not really about gods in nature but the self as god.

Also in those times people were made gods when theres no transcendent God. As self is god desires and feelings and self experience becomes the god. Therefore pleasure and all the good feelings are moral and the aweful feeling ones are sin.

So are we seeing a repeat of the down fall of society like Sodom and Gormorrah or like with how Empires have fallen where sexxual immorality and pleasure and where the created is worshipped and not the Creator.

There's always a "repeat" of this sort of thing everywhere and all the time. But I'm not sure why you'd ask this in a particular forum where many of the people posting don't think we need to address society in a way befitting Jonathan Edwards.

 

[stevevw]

There's always a "repeat" of this sort of thing everywhere and all the time. But I'm not sure why you'd ask this in a particular forum where many of the people posting don't think we need to address society in a way befitting Jonathan Edwards.

It didn't even cross my mind that it would come across like that. I'm not just thinking about religious belief but more along the lines of anthropology, psychology and sociology as well. A more holistic view as to the study of societies and how they rise and fall.

Of course morality comes into it but I am not trying to say that society should take up any particular belief. Only that humans have an inclination to believe and if its not God then its something else and that whatever that belief is it will determine how we order society as to being in harmony with the natural order or something that will unravel society.

I am saying whatever you want to call the new religion or belief, wokism, identity politics, paganism or a host ofother new age ideas have filled the void and we are beginning to see how the new religion compares to Christianity. For the first time in history since Christ I think we have rejected God completely out of the public square.

This is important and is a major turning point. There were reminents of God holding on in recent years but these have falloen one by one with changes in marriage laws, the removal of prayer and the bible from many public places. This has seen Christianity pushed to the fringes and even attacked. This is the first sign of things to come.

The anti west, anti Christian and anti Jew uprising is another sign that things are unraveling. Society is divided and we are at war with ourselves.

Yes this theme has repeated to some extent. By I am not just speaking morally. Things have changed, its not just morality, its a fight for reality itself, for the natural order. People in the past were mainly concerned with morality. But today we have a number of issues all raising their ugly heads.

If we are to go off what most people think and believe they will tell you that they believe things are not good, not safe, and they are worried more than any time in history. We can tell that by the massive increase in mental illness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It didn't even cross my mind that it would come across like that. I'm not just thinking about religious belief but more along the lines of anthropology, psychology and sociology as well. A more holistic view as to the study of societies and how they rise and fall.

Of course morality comes into it but I am not trying to say that society should take up any particular belief. Only that humans have an inclination to believe and if its not God then its something else and that whatever that belief is it will determine how we order society as to being in harmony with the natural order or something that will unravel society.

I am saying whatever you want to call the new religion or belief, wokism, identity politics, paganism or a host ofother new age ideas have filled the void and we are beginning to see how the new religion compares to Christianity. For the first time in history since Christ I think we have rejected God completely out of the public square.

This is important and is a major turning point. There were reminents of God holding on in recent years but these have falloen one by one with changes in marriage laws, the removal of prayer and the bible from many public places. This has seen Christianity pushed to the fringes and even attacked. This is the first sign of things to come.

The anti west, anti Christian and anti Jew uprising is another sign that things are unraveling. Society is divided and we are at war with ourselves.

... I didn't say I disagree. I merely asked why you think you should address this in the secular leaning forum? It's not as if non-Christians and/or Ex-Christians are going to concede or bother to talk about it much.

 

[stevevw]

... I didn't say I disagree. I merely asked why you think you should address this in the secular leaning forum? It's not as if non-Christians and/or Ex-Christians are going to concede or bother to talk about it much.

Oh ok. Um I don't know. I guess I thought it relates mostly to ethics and morality but more along the lines of understanding human evolution as well. I referred to the preflood cultures as worshipping pagan like gods and nature.

I was basing this on the archeology in finding new dicoveries of ancient cultures burried deep which display surprising sophistication and belief considering they are supposedly twice as old as what we thought was the age of the birth of organised living from hunters and gatherers.

It seems there may have been a number of highly formed cultures around at the same time that disappeared relatively quickly around 8 or 10.000 years ago.

So perhaps we are seeing a bigger version of that happening now. History does tend to repeat itself but in bigger ways.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes the church corruped Christs church by becoming to controlling, sticking their fingers in the money jar. Power went to their heads. That seems to be a human tendency as well. We cannot be as one equal in Christ.

But it was also that Christian truth that we are all made in Gods image with natural unalienable rights that set in motion human rights like equality and freedom of speech and belief.

Where do you find in the Bible any specific support for the idea of unalienable rights?

Lol, no. I mention them earlier. Think about the west and what it represents. Why did most people in the world who were oppressed, lacked freedom and opprotunity long for, the US of A lol. I know it has been idolised. But fundementally the US represented what all western nations aspired to.

The freedoms we have come to know such as freedom of speech, belief, political views, conscience, Rule of law, Justice, not to be arbitrarily detained, tortured. To have the right to a decent education, health and to live in peace and order. Democracy, government by the people and for the people.

Yet it is the Christian church which stands against these things in the US today.

 

[BCP1928]

It didn't even cross my mind that it would come across like that. I'm not just thinking about religious belief but more along the lines of anthropology, psychology and sociology as well. A more holistic view as to the study of societies and how they rise and fall.

Of course morality comes into it but I am not trying to say that society should take up any particular belief. Only that humans have an inclination to believe and if its not God then its something else and that whatever that belief is it will determine how we order society as to being in harmony with the natural order or something that will unravel society.

I am saying whatever you want to call the new religion or belief, wokism, identity politics, paganism or a host ofother new age ideas have filled the void and we are beginning to see how the new religion compares to Christianity. For the first time in history since Christ I think we have rejected God completely out of the public square.

This is important and is a major turning point. There were reminents of God holding on in recent years but these have falloen one by one with changes in marriage laws, the removal of prayer and the bible from many public places. This has seen Christianity pushed to the fringes and even attacked. This is the first sign of things to come.

The anti west, anti Christian and anti Jew uprising is another sign that things are unraveling. Society is divided and we are at war with ourselves.

Yes this theme has repeated to some extent. By I am not just speaking morally. Things have changed, its not just morality, its a fight for reality itself, for the natural order. People in the past were mainly concerned with morality. But today we have a number of issues all raising their ugly heads.

If we are to go off what most people think and believe they will tell you that they believe things are not good, not safe, and they are worried more than any time in history. We can tell that by the massive increase in mental illness.

Oh, woe is me! Right-wing Evangelical Protestantism is falling out of fashion. We're all doomed!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Where do you find in the Bible any specific support for the idea of unalienable rights?

Yet it is the Christian church which stands against these things in the US today.

... would it be too much for me to ask that you qualify your semantics in a more precise way? Thanks.

 

[BCP1928]

... would it be too much for me to ask that you qualify your semantics in a more precise way? Thanks.

The "unalienable rights" referred to in the Declaration of Independence. At least, that's what I take Steve to mean by it. He credits it as Christian doctrine, but I am not aware of any such doctrine, so I ask what is the biblical support for it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The "unalienable rights" referred to in the Declaration of Independence. At least, that's what I take Steve to mean by it. He credits it as Christian doctrine, but I am not aware of any such doctrine, so I ask what is the biblical support for it.

Understood. But I was attempting to refer more to your second statement in your last post rather than your first statement. My apologies. I should have been more clear on that.

 

[BCP1928]

Steve made a list of valuable concepts which he wants to give credit to Christianity for:

"The freedoms we have come to know such as freedom of speech, belief, political views, conscience, Rule of law, Justice, not to be arbitrarily detained, tortured. To have the right to a decent education, health and to live in peace and order. Democracy, government by the people and for the people."

The Christian church has never been consistently supportive of any of those things, Taken together, they constitute a good working definition of "woke" which the Christian church is firmly set against.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Steve made a list of valuable concepts which he wants to give credit to Christianity for:

"The freedoms we have come to know such as freedom of speech, belief, political views, conscience, Rule of law, Justice, not to be arbitrarily detained, tortured. To have the right to a decent education, health and to live in peace and order. Democracy, government by the people and for the people."

The Christian church has never been consistently supportive of any of those things, Taken together, they constitute a good working definition of "woke" which the Christian church is firmly set against.

Again, my apologies for any misunderstanding. So, in your historical estimation, when do you think "the Christian Church" began to be unsupportive of woke ideals?

 

[BCP1928]

Again, my apologies for any misunderstanding. So, in your historical estimation, when do you think "the Christian Church" began to be unsupportive of woke ideals?

To begin with, "the Christian Church" is not all one thing. What we are responding to here is Steve's idea of the Christian Church, I.e. politically entangled Evangelical Protestantism. What is loosely termed "white anglo-Protestantism" in this country. To answer your question, probably somewhere between the Scopes trial and Brown v. Board.

 

[BPPLEE]

Again, my apologies for any misunderstanding. So, in your historical estimation, when do you think "the Christian Church" began to be unsupportive of woke ideals?

I don’t agree that those are woke ideas

 

[BCP1928]

I don’t agree that those are woke ideas

I know. A lot of effort has been put into making sure that you don't, so it doesn't surprise me and I don't intend to try and change your mind about it. I only used the term here as an ad hoc way of bundling Steve's list of left-wing ideals.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don’t agree that those are woke ideas

That's ok. I didn't say they were.