The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[LoveofTruth]

One was disobedience (to God), the other was blasphemy (rejection of God).

Show scripture for you own understanding that would be best. Not just speculation

 

[LoveofTruth]

Actually it means he lied when he denied, for in his heart he believed.

His sin was against the truth about his faith.

More made up stuff as I see your words. No scripture.

All liars will be lost as scripture shows as well

Revelation 21: 8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

And Peter denied Jesus with a curse

Mark 14: 71. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.@

 

[LoveofTruth]

If he lost it, he lost it forever. Hebrews 6:4-7

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Judas is a good e sample of a saved sheep of Jesus at one time (as Jesus called all 22 his sheep) who was sent to the lost sheep being one of Jesus 12 apostles and given power by Jesus to cast out devils and he had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed as Matthew 10 shows. Then he betrayed Jesus and fell by transgression and was lost and blotted out of the book of life where the righteous were in. As scripture shows clearly.

 

[Clare73]

More made up stuff as I see your words. No scripture.

All liars will be lost as scripture shows as well

All unrepentant liars will be lost. . .Peter was repentant.

Revelation 21: 8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

And Peter denied Jesus with a curse

Mark 14: 71. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.@

And only those who die without repenting of their sin are condemned.
Peter is not in that category.

Do you know the New Testament. . .do you believe the NT?

 

[Clare73]

Show scripture for you own understanding that would be best. Not just speculation

Read the Biblical account for yourself.

 

[LoveofTruth]

All unrepentant liars will be lost. . .Peter was repentant.

And only those who die without repenting of their sin are condemned.
Peter is not in that category.

Do you know the New Testament. . .do you believe the NT?

Peter had to repent if he didn’t repent what would have happened. While he was in sun he was not ok with God contrary to the doctrine sone hold that think all is well while they willfully sin.

 

[Clare73]

Peter had to repent if he didn’t repent what would have happened. While he was in sin he was not ok with God contrary to the doctrine some hold that think all is well while they willfully sin.

He was not "OK" with God, but he also was not eternally lost/condemned.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You should hear my dog if you think your tom cat is a furry human. He's a total skeptic. He believes there is no dog!

 

[bbbbbbb]

As long as they trust in the law again sacrifices and crucify the Son of God afresh they will not be brought to repentance. But if they repent of these things perhaps. Or this could a evidence of a person who ultimately lost it.

Nowhere in Hebrews 6 is anything like that even implied, much less stated. Here it is again. Please read it carefully.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Perhaps you can show me where it says anything about trusting in the law again. How possible is impossible? Under what conditions can something impossible happen?

 

[Mercy Shown]

One was disobedience (to God), the other was blasphemy (rejection of God).

Very good answer. I haven't thought of that before.

 

[Aviel]

Just to help you out,.... we don't assume things in scripture.

I don't accept what you are trying to teach because it is not grounded in scripture correctly. Do yourself a favor and seek more from The Holy Spirit and learn from Him.

As i was explaining to you.

Sometimes there isn't a verse that explains, specifically, a Topic.

For example...

"where do the demons come from", or depending on the Version, it can say "devils"..

So, there are 3 options, and i teach my students #2.

Let me show you the options @ARBITER01


1.) God made the demons... and if that is so, then the Bible forgot to tell us that in Genesis.

2.) I TEACH..... "fallen angles" who are now = "the Devil's angels'".... are the demonic "spirits".... and i showed you how to see that, clearly.

Now there is a 3rd option...

And that is... that in the "Pre-Adamic world" .. these demonic beings, (created by God).... were a part of Satan's dominion, (Throne)... and they are still here, after the Flood and after the New Earth was made.

So, i teach #2, but #3, is certainly an option.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Nowhere in Hebrews 6 is anything like that even implied, much less stated. Here it is again. Please read it carefully.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Perhaps you can show me where it says anything about trusting in the law again. How possible is impossible? Under what conditions can something impossible happen?

I have heard that when a Jewish believer who was in faith in Christ denied Jesus there were some who went back under the law again and sacrificed an animal and trampled under foot the blood of The animal as if that was Jesus blood and did this publically denying Jesus and counting the blood an unholy thing. If that was done despite the Spirit of grace that would be damnable as they were in that sun and didn’t repent. It even says in Hebrews 6 they crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to open shame.

I can’t find that historical reference right now but I have Hearst hat . What do you think crucifying the Son of God afresh and putting him to OPEN shame means. As long as they would do this and trust in another eay if salvation they will not repent. It is impossible to bring them to repentance as long as they are crucifying the Son of shod afresh and putting him to open shame.

So we read these two verses that imply this

Hebrews 10: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

And with

Hebrews 6: 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
.
Also, the book of Hebrews was written partly to show the Jews that they are no longer under the law and that the old covenant was fading away because many were still under the law (Acts 21:29 KJV)

And we do read much of the law and faith to these Hebrews he talks of the sacrifices of the law and Christ sacrifices

Hebrews 7: 27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”

Hebrews 8: 13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Hebrews 10: 1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”

Hebrews 10: 11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”

Hebrews 10: 26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Hebrews 13: 9. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. 10. We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Nowhere in Hebrews 6 is anything like that even implied, much less stated. Here it is again. Please read it carefully.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Perhaps you can show me where it says anything about trusting in the law again. How possible is impossible? Under what conditions can something impossible happen?

I have heard that when a Jewish believer who was in faith in Christ denied Jesus there were some who went back under the law again and sacrificed an animal and trampled under foot the blood of The animal as if that was Jesus blood and did this publically denying Jesus and counting the blood an unholy thing. If that was done despite the Spirit of grace that would be damnable as they were in that sun and didn’t repent. It even says in Hebrews 6 they crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to open shame.

I can’t find that historical reference right now but I have Hearst hat . What do you think crucifying the Son of God afresh and putting him to OPEN shame means. As long as they would do this and trust in another eay if salvation they will not repent. It is impossible to bring them to repentance as long as they are crucifying the Son of shod afresh and putting him to open shame.

So we read these two verses that imply this

Hebrews 10: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

And with

Hebrews 6: 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
.
Also, the book of Hebrews was written partly to show the Jews that they are no longer under the law and that the old covenant was fading away because many were still under the law (Acts 21:29 KJV)

And we do read much of the law and faith to these Hebrews he talks of the sacrifices of the law and Christ sacrifices

Hebrews 7: 27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”

Hebrews 8: 13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Hebrews 10: 1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”

Hebrews 10: 11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”

Hebrews 10: 26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have heard that when a Jewish believer who was in faith in Christ denied Jesus there were some who went back under the law again and sacrificed an animal and trampled under foot the blood of The animal as if that was Jesus blood and did this publically denying Jesus and counting the blood an unholy thing. If that was done despite the Spirit of grace that would be damnable as they were in that sun and didn’t repent. It even says in Hebrews 6 they crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to open shame.

I can’t find that historical reference right now but I have Hearst hat . What do you think crucifying the Son of God afresh and putting him to OPEN shame means. As long as they would do this and trust in another eay if salvation they will not repent. It is impossible to bring them to repentance as long as they are crucifying the Son of shod afresh and putting him to open shame.

So we read these two verses that imply this

Hebrews 10: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

And with

Hebrews 6: 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
.
Also, the book of Hebrews was written partly to show the Jews that they are no longer under the law and that the old covenant was fading away because many were still under the law (Acts 21:29 KJV)

And we do read much of the law and faith to these Hebrews he talks of the sacrifices of the law and Christ sacrifices

Hebrews 7: 27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”

Hebrews 8: 13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Hebrews 10: 1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”

Hebrews 10: 11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”

Hebrews 10: 26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

The writer of Hebrews makes it quite clear that he is not speaking of anyone in his audience. Thus, if you examine the pronouns in chapter six which speak of "they" and "them", it is evident that believers are not being addressed. If so, then who is he talking about? I believe that he is talking about unbelieving Israel as a people, not as individuals. That nation was, indeed, once enlightened and had tasted of the heavenly gift and had been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. Like ground that drinks the rain which often fell on it and brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it was also tilled, received a blessing from God; but it yielded thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it will end up being burned.

I think that summarizes the concept of crucifying to themselves the Son of God. IMO anything beyond this requires reading into scripture facts and concepts which may or may not have been intended by the writer.

 

[Clare73]

Show scripture for you own understanding that would be best. Not just speculation

Disobedience and blasphemy are not a matter of understanding, they are a matter of definition.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The writer of Hebrews makes it quite clear that he is not speaking of anyone in his audience. Thus, if you examine the pronouns in chapter six which speak of "they" and "them", it is evident that believers are not being addressed. If so, then who is he talking about? I believe that he is talking about unbelieving Israel as a people, not as individuals. That nation was, indeed, once enlightened and had tasted of the heavenly gift and had been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. Like ground that drinks the rain which often fell on it and brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it was also tilled, received a blessing from God; but it yielded thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it will end up being burned.

I think that summarizes the concept of crucifying to themselves the Son of God. IMO anything beyond this requires reading into scripture facts and concepts which may or may not have been intended by the writer.

You are not accurate the writer already addressed believers who he earned (including himself in that warning) of being hardened through the deceitful ness of sin and to taker heed lest any of them have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from God (Hebrews 3:12 KJV)

And in Hebrews 6 he is speaking of those who were once believers and were enlightened and partakers of the Holy Ghost etc.

Read my comments on that in other post. Also read my comments on a Judas once being saved and a sheep sent to the lost sheep and given power to cast out devils etc. Then he fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book that the righteous were in.

As scripture shows.

And to crucify the Son of God afresh strongly implies that they were once saved and then by thier sin crucified him afresh and put him to open shame. Read my comments of what history records (as I have heard in the past but I would haves to find that history) how the believing Jews would go back to the law and trampled underfoot blood of an animal as if it was christ blood and unholy and they did this openly and despite the Spirit who is warning them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are not accurate the writer already addressed believers who he earned (including himself in that warning) of being hardened through the deceitful ness of sin and to taker heed lest any of them have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from God (Hebrews 3:12 KJV)

And in Hebrews 6 he is speaking of those who were once believers and were enlightened and partakers of the Holy Ghost etc.

Read my comments on that in other post. Also read my comments on a Judas once being saved and a sheep sent to the lost sheep and given power to cast out devils etc. Then he fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book that the righteous were in.

As scripture shows.

And to crucify the Son of God afresh strongly implies that they were once saved and then by thier sin crucified him afresh and put him to open shame. Read my comments of what history records (as I have heard in the past but I would haves to find that history) how the believing Jews would go back to the law and trampled underfoot blood of an animal as if it was christ blood and unholy and they did this openly and despite the Spirit who is warning them.

Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[Clare73]

You are not accurate the writer already addressed believers who he earned (including himself in that warning) of being hardened through the deceitful ness of sin and to taker heed lest any of them have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from God (Hebrews 3:12 KJV)
And in Hebrews 6 he is speaking of those who were once believers and were enlightened and partakers of the Holy Ghost etc.
Read my comments on that in other post. Also read my comments on a Judas once being saved and a sheep sent to the lost sheep and given power to cast out devils etc. Then he fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book that the righteous were in.
As scripture shows.

And to crucify the Son of God afresh strongly implies that they were once saved

All who reject Jesus Christ crucify the Son of God, including those who reject him after a counterfeit confession of accepting him.

and then by thier sin crucified him afresh and put him to open shame. Read my comments of what history records (as I have heard in the past but I would haves to find that history) how the believing Jews would go back to the law and trampled underfoot blood of an animal as if it was christ blood and unholy and they did this openly and despite the Spirit who is warning them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Yes because he is talking about a warning to any who were once enlightened not to those who continue in the faith.

He already addressed all believers including himself in Hebrews 3:12 and warned them of departing from God through an evil heart of unbelief.

He is writing to believers and he does mention the apostasy danger

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

And they had to continue vin the faith till the end as he said