The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[LoveofTruth]

Biblical demonstration?

in the sower and the seed parable to believe is to be saved as the text CLEARLY says. It does not say they were not saved (converted). Peter was saved and then fell and had to be converted again.
read this again slowly in prayer. It clearly, clearly says to believe is to be saved. And notice the word (seed) was sown in their hearts, not just a mere mental, mind hearing work.

"Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. [clearly here he shows that to believe is to be saved, you seem to just ignore this or avoid it or not understand it] 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, [so clearly for a while they are saved as the text shows] and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:12.13 KJV)

So they heard the word and received it and had life and were saved for a while then fell away.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24 KJV)

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3)

“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:15 KJV)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” (John 6:47 KJV)

and so we read inLuke 8 again

"...believe and be saved...." ( Luke 8:12 KJV

and

"which for a while believe,...and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Addressed in post #160.

Addressed in #163 and #164

 

[LoveofTruth]

The born again of the Holy Spirit never lose eternal life (Jn 6:37-39,

it reads

“7All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day"

all who come to Jesus he will save if they come in repentance and faith. But they are kept by the power of God through that continual faith and abiding in him. If they abide (continues) not in him they are cast forth as a branch as Jesus said

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." * John 15:3-6 KJV)

10:28, 17:12, 18:9).
Sheep do not become goats,

Judas was once a sheep as Jesus called him and sent him to the lost sheep and then Judas fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book of life and not written with the righteous in that book He betrayed Jesus and was once a familiar friend of Jesus.

Those not born of the Holy Spirit do not have eternal life,

and eternal life is Jesus Christ and to abide in him is to continue in the life. To abide not or to not remain or continue in him by an evil heart of unbelief is to lose that life.To christian brothers we read

“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” (Hebrews 3;12 KJV)

so it is not by works we were saved (our own works that is) nor by works we ultimately depart from God but by an evil heart of unbelief. This is when a person has a hard heart through the deceitfulness of sin.

"...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3;13 KJV)

 

[Clare73]

in the sower and the seed parable to believe is to be saved as the text CLEARLY says. It does not say they were not saved (converted).
Peter was saved and then fell and had to be converted again.

Not according to the text which makes perfectly clear that Peter's denial of Christ was to save his own skin, it was not a loss of faith.

read this again slowly in prayer. It clearly, clearly says to believe is to be saved. And notice the word (seed) was sown in their hearts, not just a mere mental, mind hearing work.

There is counterfeit faith and there is true faith.
In time/testing, counterfeit faith falls away (Lk 8:11-14). . .true faith does not (Lk 8:15).

Time/testing tells the difference.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The text makes perfectly clear that Peter's denial of Christ was to save his own skin, it was not a loss of faith.

Jesus said to Peter after his denial

“But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

There is counterfeit faith and there is true faith.

no, it says they were saved and received the word. It does not say what you made up there.

In time counterfeit faith falls away (Lk 8:11-14). . .true faith does not (Lk 8:15).

no, Judas had real faith and was belonging to the father before Jesus met him in person. Judas was a sheep sent to the lost sheep at one time.

Time/testing tells the difference.

no, only those who continue in faith until the end and have abided in Christ shall be the ones with Him in the end

 

[Clare73]

it reads

“7All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day"
all who come to Jesus he will save if they come in repentance and faith. But they are kept by the power of God through that continual faith and abiding in him. If they abide (continues) not in him they are cast forth as a branch as Jesus said
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." * John 15:3-6 KJV)
Judas was once a sheep as Jesus called him and sent him to the lost sheep and then Judas fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book of life and not written with the righteous in that book He betrayed Jesus and was once a familiar friend of Jesus.

Where is Judas called "sheep" in the NT?
What I read is "son of perdition."

and eternal life is Jesus Christ and to abide in him is to continue in the life. To abide not or to not remain or continue in him by an evil heart of unbelief is to lose that life.

"To abide not" is to demonstrate that one never really had the life, for eternal life is eternal, not temporary. . .they had counterfeit faith, no eternal life.

To christian brothers we read
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” (Hebrews 3;12 KJV)
so it is not by works we were saved (our own works that is) nor by works we ultimately depart from God but by an evil heart of unbelief. This is when a person has a hard heart through the deceitfulness of sin.
"...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3;13 KJV)

Precisely. . .

Hebrews is a warning to some professing Hebrews who evidently were considering, for whatever reason, a return to Judaism; i.e., failing to enter gospel salvation rest in Jesus Christ, for which they would be punished, just as those who refused to enter (Nu 14) Canaan rest (1 Kgs 5:24) were punished with 40 years in the wilderness.

 

[Aviel]

Hebrew 6:4-6


This passage seems to put a dagger into the argument that a save person

No one is saved in that chapter other than the Apostle.

They are all Christ Rejectors, who are all Jews, who have been given every possible opportunity to Trust in their Messiah, and they will not have it.
Paul calls this being "Stiff-necked".

So, they have "willfully sinned", and that one in this case is the Unpardonable sin, and that is why Paul told them that "there remains no more sacrifice for them..
As once they rejected Christ, who is THEIR Sacrifice for THEIR SIN.. then "there remains no more Sacrifice" as they have "trodded underfoot" their only Sacrifice.

These are unsaved "Hebrews"... and if anyone is interested, this chapter and chapter 10, are the same situation.... as im both cases you have HEBREWS who are "willfully sinning".

Now, turn to the "ACTS of the Apostles", and read Acts 28:28.

its the same, and here we see more clearly that its the Jew, tho (Hebrews) is pretty obvious.

 

[Mercy Shown]

No one is saved in that chapter other than the Apostle.

They are all Christ Rejectors, who are all Jews, who have been given every possible opportunity to Trust in their Messiah, and they will not have it.
Paul calls this being "Stiff-necked".

So, they have "willfully sinned", and that one in this case is the Unpardonable sin, and that is why Paul told them that "there remains no more sacrifice for them..
As once they rejected Christ, who is THEIR Sacrifice for THEIR SIN.. then "there remains no more Sacrifice" as they have "trodded underfoot" their only Sacrifice.

These are unsaved "Hebrews"... and if anyone is interested, this chapter and chapter 10, are the same situation.... as im both cases you have HEBREWS who are "willfully sinning".

Now, turn to the "ACTS of the Apostles", and read Acts 28:28.

its the same, and here we see more clearly that its the Jew, tho (Hebrews) is pretty obvious.

So, in essence, then, are you saying that a person who has been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age is a lost Hebrew?

 

[Aviel]

So, in essence, then, are you saying that a person who has been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age is a lost Hebrew?

Im saying that if you are in a Church service and the Preaching of the Cross is being given by Me... and the Holy Spirit is opening your heart to know its true..
Then you have "tasted" the power of God, as the Holy Spirit, you have tasted the heavenly gift that is the Holy Spirit, and you are enlightened by the Holy Spirit.....

You have now had an EXPERIENCE with GOD.....and "God is A Spirit" and you just encountered the "conviction of the Holy Spirit".. and "Christ is THAT Spirit"..

To RESIT.. to REJECT that ..... = That is to commit the UNPARDONABLE sin, and that is what the verse is showing you, along with Chapter 10.

And those HEBREWS did also EXPERIENCE THIS HEAVENLY opportunity.. ....and they SPIT on the Cross, and would not have it.... on PURPOSE>....""""Willfully.""""


And Paul told them....."then i'll take this GOSPEL to the GENTILES" as THEY will believe it.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said to Peter after his denial

“But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

In the Greek that is: "when having turned."

Jesus prayed for Peter's rejection of (turning from) his denial (which was for the sake of his skin, not for lack of love/belief).
Peter denied for the sake of his skin--(1) which is not the same as disbelieving, (2) Jesus prayer preserving him from any true apostasy.
Peter turned from his false denial (which was for the sake of his skin), which is not same as turning from unbelief.

no, it says they were saved and received the word. It does not say what you made up there.

no, Judas had real faith and was belonging to the father before Jesus met him in person. Judas was a sheep sent to the lost sheep at one time.

Biblical textual demonstration?

Judas had "real" faith that Jesus was going to be an earthly king and that Judas would be ruling one of the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said to Peter after his denial

“But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

no, it says they were saved

Where is that stated?

 

[Aviel]

In the Greek that is: "when having turned."

Jesus prayed for Peter's rejection of (turning from) his denial (which was for the sake of his skin, not for lack of love/belief).

When Jesus was on the Cross He said....>>"Father forgive THEM, for they know not what they do"..

So, who is the "them"?

Was it the handful who were blaspheming Jesus and saying.>>"fly on down from the nails if you are the Messiah".....

Or was Jesus praying a corporate prayer for everyone who was involved in the Trial, as well.?

So, God answered that Prayer.
They WERE forgiven for nailing Jesus to the Tree, but they were NOT forgiven for Rejecting Their Messiah.

 

[Clare73]

When Jesus was on the Cross He said....>>"Father forgive THEM, for they know not what they do"..

So, who is the "them"?

In context, it is the soldiers who put him there.

 

[Aviel]

In context, it is the soldiers who put him there.

Its our SIN that put Him there, as that is why He Died on the Cross. @Clare73

Jesus was sent by God to the Cross for our sin.

So, God's Love for you and me and Christ's Love for you and me sent Him to the Cross.

The Romans only nailed Him there.

The reason it was a Cross, is because He was fulfilling MORE OT Prophecy.

 

[ARBITER01]

Hebrew 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This passage seems to put a dagger into the argument that a save person cannot ever be lost for it describes a person who was enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partaker of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. To most of us, that sounds like a saved person, but as one reformed saint explained to me, these people were never saved in the first place. When I asked how he knew this, he replied, "Because they fell away."

I did not want to jump into the swirl of that circular argument so I let sleeping dogs lie. But I have thought about what he said for a long time. He was also a proponent of total depravity, often citing 1 Corinthians 2:14 in the King James Version of the Bible, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So we have two conflicting statements. When I combine his two arguments, I have a paradox. Either these people were saved and fell away from it, or they were never saved and yet were able to be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, partake of the Holy Spirit, and taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, all of which seem to be denied possible to a lost person according to1 Corinthians 2:14.

Are the lost sinners who were able to understand spiritual things until they fell away, or were they saved saints until they chose to fall away? If they were lost sinners, what did they fall away from?

If John Calvin were here, I'd ask him. (If I had a fire proof suit to wear.)

Satan fell away, and he was more perfect than we were.

What makes anyone think that Christians can't betray GOD also?

 

[Aviel]

Satan fell away, and he was more perfect than we were.

Satan was not more perfect then Adam.

The difference is, that Humans are "Let us create man in OUR image" and angels are not created like this...
They are spiritual beings, but not in the same Light as we are..

Its interesting to note that Angles can sin, but they can't receive Salvation., nor can the Devil... who is a specific CLASS of angelic being.. known as a Cherub...
You can find examples of them here.. on the Ark of the Covenant.
Satan (Lucifer was one of THOSE..
-

-

What makes anyone think that Christians can't betray GOD also?

Peter betrayed the Lord 3x.

Later He wrote 2 Epistle in the NT and was martyr'd for Christ, on a Cross, hanging upside down.

 

[ARBITER01]

Satan was not more perfect then Adam.

What makes you say that?

Of creation at the time, satan was the most perfect being before his fall, just like adam and eve were before their fall.

Peter betrayed the Lord 3x.

Later He wrote 2 Epistle in the NT and was martyr'd for Christ, on a Cross, hanging upside down.

If a person was to seek forgiveness for their betrayal, it is within Jesus to forgive that person. But if they don't, their chains await them in a pit surrounded by fire.

I know of a person that it strongly in satanism who used to be a Christian. She had an accident that paralyzed her from the waist down. Satan was right there to help her blame GOD for it and turn her towards witchcraft and satanism. She's still in it.

Will she seek forgiveness before her death? I doubt it.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Satan was not more perfect then Adam.

The difference is, that Humans are "Let us create man in OUR image" and angels are not created like this...
They are spiritual beings, but not in the same Light as we are..

Peter uses the warning about angels sinning for humans as well. And the fallen angels will end up in the lake of fire created for them, but so will all those who reject jesus Christ end up there.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4 KJV)

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15 KJV)

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41 KJV)

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10 KJV)

Its interesting to note that Angles can sin, but they can't receive Salvation., nor can the Devil... who is a specific CLASS of angelic being.. known as a Cherub...

God did not give them a redemptive plan perhaps because they had full knowledge already and still sinned.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Where is that stated?

Luke 22:32 I believe

and Peter was saved as we read

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17 KJV)

Said before the cross and before peters denial, compare with what he said to Johns words about such a confession

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.” (1 John 5:1 KJV)

“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15 KJV)

 

[Clare73]

Its our SIN that put Him there, as that is why He Died on the Cross. @Clare73

Agreed. . .but someone had to execute the sentence.

Jesus was sent by God to the Cross for our sin.
So, God's Love for you and me and Christ's Love for you and me sent Him to the Cross.
The Romans only nailed Him there.

Agreed. . .but murdering the Messiah, knowingly or unknowingly, is an offense against God.

The reason it was a Cross, is because He was fulfilling MORE OT Prophecy.

Agreed. . .