VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have not attacked you personally, only your wrong beliefs.

Yes, the martyrs killed during the Great Trib, in the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, will come from those mentioned in Revelation 12:17
But the people in Rev 13:7, are all God's people in the holy Land, before the GT. This conquering of them is Prophesied by Zechariah 14:1-2

It will be after they are conquered, that they are divided into 2 groups as per Rev 12:14 & 17 and Daniel 11:32

It is in the Bible; in over 100 graphically described Prophesies that tell how the Lord will once again reset our civilization; similar to what He did in the days of Noah.
Is it not plain to you that there has to be some kind of dramatic event to commence the end times Prophesies? It won't be a 'rapture to heaven". Nowhere does the Bible say that, it says: We must endure until the end.

What pretentious nonsense!
The Word of Jesus in Revelation says: those ungodly peoples will cry out for help as they dive for cover, knowing they are experiencing Gods wrath.

Rather desperate now! I have refuted those verses, they do not even mention heaven.
What Jesus said 6 times, was that for people to go to live in heaven, was impossible.

Rev 3:10 proves the pre-Trib rapture. We HAVE TO BE in Heaven with Jesus when He cites those “who dwell on the earth.” Thst is a very demeaning description, proven by Rev 11:10 (NIV): The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets

We are NOT “the inhabitants of the earth.” We are “you “ in Rev 3:10, and we are NOT on Earth as the Trib unfolds.

If you don’t accept that, God’s wrath starts no later than seal #2. Wars are a certified form of God’s wrath (please see Ezek 14:21). The 2nd seal is about wars occurring simultaneously all over the world — something never before seen on Earth.

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

What are we waiting for? That “blessed hope.” Titus 2:13,(NIV): while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Where will Jesus next appear? In the air (behind heavenly clouds): 1 Th 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

We “will be with the Lord forever.” Rev 3:10 and John 14:3 put us is in Heaven “to be with the Lord forever.” John 14:3 (specifically says “… I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Where is Jesus now?

You therefore need to factor in who any “saints” are in the Trib: new converts that become martyrs, and ultimately the GM.

It is difficult to account for who are in Matt 24:13 and 22. Those folks go through the Trib, and they appear to be Israelites. There isn’t enough available data to know.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have not attacked you personally, only your wrong beliefs.

Yes, the martyrs killed during the Great Trib, in the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, will come from those mentioned in Revelation 12:17
But the people in Rev 13:7, are all God's people in the holy Land, before the GT. This conquering of them is Prophesied by Zechariah 14:1-2

It will be after they are conquered, that they are divided into 2 groups as per Rev 12:14 & 17 and Daniel 11:32

It is in the Bible; in over 100 graphically described Prophesies that tell how the Lord will once again reset our civilization; similar to what He did in the days of Noah.
Is it not plain to you that there has to be some kind of dramatic event to commence the end times Prophesies? It won't be a 'rapture to heaven". Nowhere does the Bible say that, it says: We must endure until the end.

What pretentious nonsense!
The Word of Jesus in Revelation says: those ungodly peoples will cry out for help as they dive for cover, knowing they are experiencing Gods wrath.

Rather desperate now! I have refuted those verses, they do not even mention heaven.
What Jesus said 6 times, was that for people to go to live in heaven, was impossible.

You also never connect the dots with the martyrs in Rev 6:9. Verse 11 says, “Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Their “fellow servants” are in Rev 20:4.

Both groups of martyrs (Rev 6:9 and Rev 20:4) comprise the GM.

 

[keras]

We are NOT “the inhabitants of the earth.” We are “you “ in Rev 3:10, and we are NOT on Earth as the Trib unfolds.

Your fantasy.

God made the earth for mankind to live in, You have yet to show any scripture that says we will leave the earth. Even for a short while.

We “will be with the Lord forever.” Rev 3:10 and John 14:3 put us is in Heaven “to be with the Lord forever.

I agree; The faithful Christians will be with the Lord forever. ON EARTH and after that: on the New Earth for Eternity.

You are a serious recdivist promoter of a wrong belief. You add words to scripture; the word 'heaven' is not in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10, and you fail to comprehend what the Bible actually does say about how we must be ready to prove our faith by never losing our trust in the Lord, thru whatever happens. It is those people who Jesus will reward when He Returns. Matthew 16:27

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have not attacked you personally, only your wrong beliefs.

Yes, the martyrs killed during the Great Trib, in the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, will come from those mentioned in Revelation 12:17
But the people in Rev 13:7, are all God's people in the holy Land, before the GT. This conquering of them is Prophesied by Zechariah 14:1-2

It will be after they are conquered, that they are divided into 2 groups as per Rev 12:14 & 17 and Daniel 11:32

It is in the Bible; in over 100 graphically described Prophesies that tell how the Lord will once again reset our civilization; similar to what He did in the days of Noah.
Is it not plain to you that there has to be some kind of dramatic event to commence the end times Prophesies? It won't be a 'rapture to heaven". Nowhere does the Bible say that, it says: We must endure until the end.

What pretentious nonsense!
The Word of Jesus in Revelation says: those ungodly peoples will cry out for help as they dive for cover, knowing they are experiencing Gods wrath.

Rather desperate now! I have refuted those verses, they do not even mention heaven.
What Jesus said 6 times, was that for people to go to live in heaven, was impossible.

Heaven is mentioned in John 14:2 as “my Father’s house.” That extends to verse 3.

Rev 3:10 is after the rapture; we are with our Lord Jesus, and we view the Trib from Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your fantasy.

God made the earth for mankind to live in, You have yet to show any scripture that says we will leave the earth. Even for a short while.

I agree; The faithful Christians will be with the Lord forever. ON EARTH and after that: on the New Earth for Eternity.

You are a serious recdivist promoter of a wrong belief. You add words to scripture; the word 'heaven' is not in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10, and you fail to comprehend what the Bible actually does say about how we must be ready to prove our faith by never losing our trust in the Lord, thru whatever happens. It is those people who Jesus will reward when He Returns. Matthew 16:27

Your reply does not refute Rev 3:10 and John 14:3.

 

[keras]

Their “fellow servants” are in Rev 20:4.

Both groups of martyrs (Rev 6:9 and Rev 20:4) comprise the GM.

The martyrs in Rev 6:9-11 and in Rev 20:4, are both killed for their Christian faith. They are 'fellow servants'. But the ones killed during the GT are special and it will only be them who Jesus will bring back to life when He Returns.
ALL the rest of the dead must wait for the GWT Judgment, after the thousand years.

Only the GT martyrs will come from the Great Multitude, Rev 7:9. The ones in Rev 6:9-11, are mostly early Christians killed by Rome. and still ongoing by Islamists, etc. today.

 

[keras]

Heaven is mentioned in John 14:2 as “my Father’s house.”

Heaven is where My Fathers House; the New Jerusalem is being prepared. It will come down to the new Earth, AFTER the Millennium.
No one goes up to it.

Your reply does not refute Rev 3:10 and John 14:3.

The Bible refutes your wrong interpretation of those verses and the whole fable pf a rapture to heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Heaven is where My Fathers House; the New Jerusalem is being prepared. It will come down to the new Earth, AFTER the Millennium.
No one goes up to it.

The Bible refutes your wrong interpretation of those verses and the whole fable pf a rapture to heaven.

You’re not understanding 1 Th 1:10. That was Paul’s first wording about the pre-Trib rapture. He confirmed it’s pre-Trib in 2 Th 2:1-3. The original word was “apostasia” and it has two main definitions: (1) defection; revolt; and (2) departure; disappearance. With “departure” paired with “disappearance,” Paul meant definition #2 as a physical departure (rapture).

In 2 Th 2:1. Paul raises to the topic of the rapture. That verse is not about Matt 24:31 because verse 31 does not end in “our gathering to Him,” as does 2 Th 2:1. So, Paul was provably talking about the rapture (1 Th 1:10).

2 Th 2:2 cites the deception suffered by his flock (a fraudulent letter) saying they had missed the rapture and were now in the Trib (“Day of the Lord”).

2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

So, proper contextual analysis from 2 Th 2:1 makes it clear that Paul was correcting his flock about the timing of the rapture in verse 3. Many Bible versions have botched their interpretation of 2 Th 2:1-3.

Why, to this day, will KJV not say why they caused the sea change in 2 Th 2:3 by CHANGING IT from apostasia’s 2nd definition to its 1st definition? The falling away occurs years later in Matt 24:10, during the Trib.

John 14:3 (GNV): “And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there may ye be also.”

Jesus will “come again” to rapture the Church. He never touches earth, and, per John 14:3, we go directly to Heaven.

We are “you” in Rev 3:10; we are not “those who dwell on the earth.”

The next return of Jesus Christ will solely be to rapture the Church (all dead in Christ and all living in Christ). We meet Jesus in the air (1 Th 4:17). We proceed to “my Father’s house,” per John 14:2-3.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Heaven is where My Fathers House; the New Jerusalem is being prepared. It will come down to the new Earth, AFTER the Millennium.
No one goes up to it.

The Bible refutes your wrong interpretation of those verses and the whole fable pf a rapture to heaven.

 

[keras]

The next return of Jesus Christ will solely be to rapture the Church (all dead in Christ and all living in Christ). We meet Jesus in the air (1 Th 4:17). We proceed to “my Father’s house,” per John 14:2-3.

This fantastic belief, is a contradiction of many scriptures. It will not and cannot happen, as we Christian peoples have work to do here; WE will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land. His people, displaying His Light to the world. Acts 13:47

You generalize. You never prove me wrong. You say “Heaven” isn’t in John 14:3. What does “my Father’s house” mean in verse 2? It does mean we are raptured to Heaven.

I continually prove you wrong, you just can't accept correction, as you are locked into your delusions. 2 Timothy 2:11
You fail to properly study all of what the Bible Prophets say. The Fathers House, the new Jerusalem; will come to us. Revelation 21:1

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually it started with a vision a child named Margaret MacDonald had in 1830, which Darby ran with, and then Moody popularized. As far as I know the mid and post positions developed after that.

Thank you for that bit of information. Perhaps you might open a thread or send me a PM about the subject of John Nelson Darby? I am wanting to improve my understanding of the history of his teachings and of the Plymouth Brethren

 

[ozso]

Thank you for that bit of information. Perhaps you might open a thread or send me a PM about the subject of John Nelson Darby? I am wanting to improve my understanding of the history of his teachings and of the Plymouth Brethren

I don't know/remember anything about him beyond what I wrote.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This fantastic belief, is a contradiction of many scriptures. It will not and cannot happen, as we Christian peoples have work to do here; WE will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land. His people, displaying His Light to the world. Acts 13:47

I continually prove you wrong, you just can't accept correction, as you are locked into your delusions. 2 Timothy 2:11
You fail to properly study all of what the Bible Prophets say. The Fathers House, the new Jerusalem; will come to us. Revelation 21:1

Keras, you generalize to the max. You avoid my questions that point to the obvious truth of the pre-Trib rapture.

For instance, you often say, “It doesn’t say “Heaven,” when other words are present that mean Heaven.

Example: John 14:2 says “my Father’s house.” You say, “It doesn’t say ‘Heaven!’”

This fantastic belief, is a contradiction of many scriptures. It will not and cannot happen, as we Christian peoples have work to do here; WE will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land. His people, displaying His Light to the world. Acts 13:47

I continually prove you wrong, you just can't accept correction, as you arelocked into your delusions. 2 Timothy 2:11
You fail to properly study all of what the Bible Prophets say. The Fathers House, the new Jerusalem; will come to us. Revelation 21:1

You are ignoring the timeline.

The NHNE won’t appear until Rev 21.

The 2A occurs after the Trib. It is biblically impossible for the 2A to align with Acts 1:11. The 2A fails because it immediately puts Jesus in the view of unbelievers. That is all well and perfect for the 2A. But, Acts 1:11 requires Jesus to NEXT return only in the view of believers. That will be attained only through 1 Th 4:16-17. Jesus is in the view of unbelievers from the 2A to the GWTJ.

Lastly, the NHNE is brought to us. Rev 21:2 (NIV): I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The rapture requires a context of unbelievers dwelling on Earth and having their view of Jesus obstructed by heavenly clouds (1 Th 4:17).

As of the NHNE, there are no more unbelievers dwelling on the Earth.

Therefore, the rapture occurs pre-Trib because heavenly clouds are required (1 Th 4:17) to obstruct the view of unbelievers, and that context isn’t found anywhere after the Trib starts.

The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied to occur as the next return of Jesus Christ, in strict accordance with Acts 1:11 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't know/remember anything about him beyond what I wrote.

Well what you wrote was quite interesting, that in other words, the idea of the Rapture was based on a dream or a vision had by the child that Darby was caring for at the time?

 

[ozso]

Well what you wrote was quite interesting, that in other words, the idea of the Rapture was based on a dream or a vision had by the child that Darby was caring for at the time?

It was during a 19th century tent revival in Scotland that both 15 year old Margaret MacDonald and Darby happened to be present at separately. She got a revelation, like many have at those things, which Darby heard and latched onto. Then when Darby got to America he presented it to D.L. Moody who was a very popular evangelist, and when he started preaching it, it spread like wildfire.

Here's good concise overview of it:

 

[keras]

The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied to occur as the next return of Jesus Christ, in strict accordance with Acts 1:11 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

In strict accordance with your beliefs, or else; God!!!!!!

Why do you want to go to heaven? Isn't that rather an escapist desire?
People who believe in the rapture, should really consider their motives and whether going to live in heaven is such a good idea for we humans.
Also; those rapture believers should be very careful to not teach anything not accurately and clearly in the scriptures. There will be penalties for false teachers.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It was during a 19th century tent revival in Scotland that both 15 year old Margaret MacDonald and Darby happened to be present at separately. She got a revelation, like many have at those things, which Darby heard and latched onto. Then when Darby got to America he presented it to D.L. Moody who was a very popular evangelist, and when he started preaching it, it spread like wildfire.

Here's good concise overview of it:

That video is full of lies. The timing of the rapture as a pre-Trib event was first taught by Apostle Paul.

Paul began his teaching on the pre-Trib timing of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

“Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

In the Trib, the wrath of God begins in the 2nd seal, Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere.

In the Trib, wars are a form of God’s wrath, as proven in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured to Heaven before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1 of the Trib, complementing Paul’s other writing in 1 Th 5:1-3.

The gentleman in your video is no match for the biblical truth above.

 

[ozso]

That video is full of lies. The timing of the rapture as a pre-Trib event was first taught by Apostle Paul.

Paul began his teaching on the pre-Trib timing of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

“Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

In the Trib, the wrath of God begins in the 2nd seal, Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere.

In the Trib, wars are a form of God’s wrath, as proven in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured to Heaven before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1 of the Trib, complementing Paul’s other writing in 1 Th 5:1-3.

The gentleman in your video is no match for the biblical truth above.

Before Margaret MacDonald's vision, absolutely no Christian ever had any such interpretation or belief.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Before Margaret MacDonald's vision, absolutely no Christian ever had any such interpretation or belief.

Interpretations and beliefs aside, Apostle Paul first wrote about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10. Paul wrote 1 Th 1:10 at least 1,700 years before “Darby.”

The reference I supplied on the meaning of “deliver” in 1 Th 1:10, proves that Paul was talking about the pre-Trib rapture.

That video is false on at least a few very significant points.

 

[Douggg]

Before Margaret MacDonald's vision, absolutely no Christian ever had any such interpretation or belief.

Darby wrote out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to Margaret MacDonald's 1830 vision.

Also Margaret MacDonald's vision was of a post tribulation nature.

Margaret MacDonald (visionary) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org