WHAT IS 1 PETER 3:21 REALLY SATING TO US ??

[Dan Perez]

Was God lying when he said that he gave prophecy in dark sayings, sentences, speeches (riddles) in Nu 12:8?

And I checked the ESA , ASV , YLT , NKJV , LXX and they used the word RIDDLE .

Num 12:8 is the only translation that used the word , DARK SAYING .

And this not unusable , as that many Hebrew and Greek words can have many different translations and many of Greek scholars , do nor always agree .

dan p

 

[concretecamper]

There is a double figure here. The flood symbolizes baptism, and baptism symbolizes salvation.

The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure (baptism is a figure/symbol of Christ's death, burial and resurrection which saves) also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The flood symbolized baptism which baptism symbolizes Christ's death (judgment), burial and resurrection which saves.

The flood is a symbol of baptism in that in both instances the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4) is the water that saves.
Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences.

"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."

"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life; i.e., that as Christ died for sin, so the believer will die to sin.

Hmm, Cyprian or some self appointed scripture scholar. Who to look to for scriptural interpretation?

I'll choose Cyprian every time.

If I am looking for some novel ideas, I'll ask you.

 

[Clare73]

And I checked the ESA , ASV , YLT , NKJV , LXX and they used the word RIDDLE .

KJV uses "dark saying."

Num 12:8 is the only translation that used the word , DARK SAYING .

And this not unusable , as that many Hebrew and Greek words can have many different translations and many of Greek scholars , do nor always agree .

dan p

"Dark saying" (hidden; unable to see the meaning) and "riddle" mean the same thing to me.

 

[Clare73]

Hmm, Cyprian or some self appointed scripture scholar. Who to look to for scriptural interpretation?

I'll choose Cyprian every time.

If I am looking for some novel ideas, I'll ask you.

Perhaps to Biblically demonstrate your assertion, you would exegete 1 Pe 3:20-21, showing my error.

 

[Dan Perez]

"Dark saying" (hidden; unable to see the meaning) and "riddle" mean the same thing to me.

And all the verse that I wrote in POST # 141 all used the Greek word HIGA and can be CONNIPTION .

dan p

 

[concretecamper]

Perhaps to Biblically demonstrate your assertion, you would exegete 1 Pe 3:20-21, showing my error.

For what purpose? Like you would change your mind? Close to 2,000 years of consistent Church teaching on the salvific nature of water Baptism and yet you still reject it. Thanks, I needed a laugh today.

You demonstrate nicely the fruit of Sola Scriptura. Everyone's interpretation of scripture is correct and everyone who doesn't agree with ME is wrong .

 

[Dan Perez]

For what purpose? Like you would change your mind? Close to 2,000 years of consistent Church teaching on the salvific nature of water Baptism and yet you still reject it. Thanks, I needed a laugh today.

You demonstrate nicely the fruit of Sola Scriptura. Everyone's interpretation of scripture is correct and everyone who doesn't agree with ME is wrong .

And I see that all should check the Greek word BAPTISM doth also now SAVE US and Many believe that WATER // HUDOR which is NOT in the Greek , and many see the word BAPTISM and LEAP and say it means WATER BAPTISM .

But the Greek word BAPTISM // BAPTISO is NOT in the Greek text .

It is the Greek word BAPTISMA , which changes the meaning to the HOLY SPIRIT , and Eph 4:5 .

But consider you a friend and do not mind being asked to explain any thing that I write !!

dan p

 

[Clare73]

For what purpose? Like you would change your mind?

If you could linguistically and Biblically demonstrate your assertion by exegeting 1 Pe 3:20-21.

You demonstrate nicely the fruit of Sola Scriptura.
Everyone's interpretation of scripture is correct and everyone who doesn't agree with ME is wrong .

Everyone who doesn't agree with the text is wrong.

Feel free to exegete the text to demonstrate your point.

Short of that, it is simply your assertion without demonstration.

 

[concretecamper]

Everyone who doesn't agree with the text is wrong

You mean to say that everyone who doesn't agree with what you say the text means is wrong. We all know that is the case, own it and don't deny it

Feel free to exegete the text to demonstrate your point.

I don't need to. All I can do is highlight your interpretation is new and different that close to 2,000 year of His Church's teaching.

Short of that, it is simply your assertion without demonstration.

Not my assertion, it is His Church's teaching. It is your your assertion that is wrong. Sorry to spoil it for you.

The same Church that said 1 Peter is inspired text says your interpretation is wrong. I'm just here to highlight that for everyone.

 

[Clare73]

You mean to say that everyone who doesn't agree with what you say the text means is wrong. We all know that is the case, own it and don't deny it

I don't need to. All I can do is highlight your interpretation is new and different that close to 2,000 year of His Church's teaching.

And there we have it. . .tradition trumps grammatical construction and meaning of the word of God.

 

[concretecamper]

And there we have it. . .tradition trumps grammatical construction and meaning of the word of God.

It certainly trumps YOUR word.

Tradition safe keeps the meaning of scripture from odd ideas such as the ones you advanced.

 

[Clare73]

It certainly trumps YOUR word.

Tradition safe keeps the meaning of scripture from odd ideas such as the ones you advanced.

Any interpretation of Scripture can get measured by its agreement or disagreement with the rest of Scripture.

Feel free to demonstrate the error of my "ideas" using the NT understood in the context of all Scripture.

 

[Dan Perez]

It certainly trumps YOUR word.

Tradition safe keeps the meaning of scripture from odd ideas such as the ones you advanced.

AND traditions can be BAD or GOOD as REFERENCED in Col 2:8 !!

Take heed LEST // ME is a DISJNCATIVE PARTICLE , LESTTTTTTT anyone shall be ROBBING you through the LOVE of Human Wisdom and empty deceit to the Wisdom according to the instruction of men , according to the basic principles of MEN , according to the basic principles of the WORLD , and NOT // another DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , according to Christ .

dan p

 

[concretecamper]

AND traditions can be BAD or GOOD as REFERENCED in Col 2:8 !!

Take heed LEST // ME is a DISJNCATIVE PARTICLE , LESTTTTTTT anyone shall be ROBBING you through the LOVE of Human Wisdom and empty deceit to the Wisdom according to the instruction of men , according to the basic principles of MEN , according to the basic principles of the WORLD , and NOT // another DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , according to Christ .

dan p

I agree, you said tradition and I said Tradition.

 

[Dan Perez]

I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and which are subject to more than one interpretation.
I take my doctrine only from apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

However, my personal view of this prophetic riddle is that it is a promise of the Holy Spirit and new nature in the NT (as in Jn 3:5), where Eze 36:26 is fulfilled in Heb 10:6, 2 Co 3:3, etc.

Baptism, does not save, 1 Pe 3:21 is to tell us that baptism is a type, symbol of what does save; i.e., death, burial and resurrection of/in Christ (Ro 6:3-7).

A SYMBOL you say ?/

In Rom 6:3 reads , Or are you IGNORANT , that as MANY as were BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED into His DEATH ??

And is BAPTISM in Rom 6:3 SYMBOLISM ?/

And you say that it is SYMBOLISM , without and explanation ??

dan p

 

[Clare73]

A SYMBOL you say ?/

In Rom 6:3 reads , Or are you IGNORANT , that as MANY as were BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED into His DEATH ??

And is BAPTISM in Rom 6:3 SYMBOLISM ?/

And you say that it is SYMBOLISM , without and explanation ??

dan p

Previously addressed (post #121, 123, 125, 127, 131). . .

 

[Dan Perez]

There is a double figure here. The flood symbolizes baptism, and baptism symbolizes salvation.

The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure (baptism is a figure/symbol of Christ's death, burial and resurrection which saves) also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The flood symbolized baptism which baptism symbolizes Christ's death (judgment), burial and resurrection which saves.

The flood is a symbol of baptism in that in both instances the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4) is the water that saves.
Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences.

"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."

"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life; i.e., that as Christ died for sin, so the believer will die to sin.

It seem to me , that you have OPENED the door for a way for many others to use the word SYNBOLISM as a system of INTERPRETATION .

Good luck with that !!

dan p

 

[Clare73]

It seem to me , that you have OPENED the door for a way for many others to use the word SYNBOLISM as a system of INTERPRETATION .

Good luck with that !!

You'll have to take that up with Peter. He's the one who said, "Baptism, which figure (antitupos) now saves us."

Baptism is a figure of the spiritual reality which saves, it is not the spiritual reality itself.

The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants formed (pictured) the spiritual realities of the death, burial and resurrection of the believer in their identification with Christ.
Baptism likewise forms (pictures) the spiritual realities of the death, burial and resurrection of the believer in their identification with Christ.
Both the flood and baptism set forth the same spiritual realities: the death, burial and resurrection of the believer in their identification with Christ.
Both the flood and baptism are symbols/figures of the spiritual reality of the believer's identification with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.
Neither baptism nor the flood are the spiritual realities themselves, they are only figures/symbols.

I don't advise corralling Peter's use of "figure/symbol" for the sake of remedying the errors of others.
Rather, I maintain that the real remedy lies in informing others of their error, so they can correct them and not remain in them.

 

[Dan Perez]

You'll have to take that up with Peter. He's the one who said, "Baptism, which figure (antitupos) now saves us."

Baptism is a figure of the spiritual reality which saves, it is not the spiritual reality itself.

The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants formed (pictured) the spiritual realities of the death, burial and resurrection of the believer in their identification with Christ.
Baptism likewise forms (pictures) the spiritual realities of the death, burial and resurrection of the believer in their identification with Christ.
Both the flood and baptism set forth the same spiritual realities: the death, burial and resurrection of the believer in their identification with Christ.
Both the flood and baptism are symbols/figures of the spiritual reality of the believer's identification with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.
Neither baptism nor the flood are the spiritual realities themselves, they are only figures/symbols.

I don't advise corralling Peter's use of "figure/symbol" for the sake of remedying the errors of others.
Rather, I maintain that the real remedy lies in informing others of their error, so they can correct them and not remain in them.

I will never have Peter explain ANY THING to us , period .

IN 2 Cor 5:10 reads , It is necessary for all of us to be made MAIFEST in Front of the JUDGEMENT Seat of Christ in order that EACH one will receive back the THINGS { DONE } by the body ACCORDING to hat things HE PRACTISIED whether GOOD or BAD >


dan p

 

[Clare73]

I will never have Peter explain ANY THING to us , period .

IN 2 Cor 5:10 reads , It is necessary for all of us to be made MAIFEST in Front of the JUDGEMENT Seat of Christ in order that EACH one will receive back the THINGS { DONE } by the body ACCORDING to hat things HE PRACTISIED whether GOOD or BAD >

I believe all of the NT.

Sorry that you don't. . .your loss.