There is no Rapture

[Douggg]

@keras, when the present earth and heaven are destroyed in Revelation 20:11 - where will you then be ?

2Peter3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

There will be a new heaven and new earth after the Great White Throne Judgment.

But in the time between this current earth and heaven destroyed, and the new heaven and earth created - where will you be ?

 

[keras]

when the present earth and heaven are destroyed in Revelation 20:11 - where will you then be ?

Standing before God on His Great White Throne; along with everyone who has ever lived.
On the new Earth, then into Eternity.

You make the mistake of reading 2 Peter 3:7-13, as a single event. It is a sequence of events.
Verses 7 and 10 refer to the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal event, which will mainly affect the Middle East region. Zephaniah 2:4-6
Verse 11 goes on to say how the whole Universe will eventually be gone and in verse 13, THEN; we look forward to the new heavens and earth, where justice and righteousness will be. AFTER the Millennium.

But in the time between this current earth and heaven destroyed, and the new heaven and earth created - where will you be ?

Soon to happen is the world changer of the Sixth Seal.
There will be a one World Govt formed, but we Christians will not be a part of it.
We will live in all of the holy Land, in peace and prosperity; under the Lords protection.
When Jesus Returns; after a 42 month period of world control by Satan, all those people who kept their faith and trust in Jesus, will go with Him into the Millennium. The few survivors of the ungodly peoples after Armageddon, will come annually, to worship the King in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:16-19

This is the right and accurately Biblical scenario of the end times. Any foolish ideas of being raptured to heaven or getting 'glorified bodies', are false and will not happen.

 

[Douggg]

Standing before God on His Great White Throne; along with everyone who has ever lived.
On the new Earth, then into Eternity.

God's throne is in the third heaven. The new earth and new heaven (replacing the destroyed present earth and first and second heavens) is not created until after the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[keras]

God's throne is in the third heaven. The new earth and new heaven (replacing the destroyed present earth and first and second heavens) is not created until after the Great White Throne Judgment.

That is what Revelation 20 says and is what I believe.

Soon to happen is the world changer of the Sixth Seal.
There will be a one World Govt formed, but we Christians will not be a part of it.
We will live in all of the holy Land, in peace and prosperity; under the Lords protection.
When Jesus Returns; after a 42 month period of world control by Satan, all those people who kept their faith and trust in Jesus, will go with Him into the Millennium. The few survivors of the ungodly peoples after Armageddon, will come annually, to worship the King in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:16-19

Where is anything wrong with the above scenario?
Any disagreement with it, will be due to beliefs in false theories, which cause confusion and error.

 

[Douggg]

Where is anything wrong with the above scenario?

The Sixth seal event takes place near the end of the 7 years.

No one world government. Instead the nations will fall into four groups - the West, the North, the South, the East.

Christians from other parts of the world are not going to migrate en masse to the holy land.

Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years and begins his rule over the nations with a rod of iron. So there will be unsaved people who survive the great tribulation, but they won't be in positions of power.

 

[keras]

The Sixth seal event takes place near the end of the 7 years.

An alteration to the given sequence of Revelation made to suit a false belief. Not advisable.
It's impossible; because a scroll cannot be opened before the seals are removed.

No one world government. Instead the nations will fall into four groups

You know more than Daniel 7:23-24 and Revelation 17:12-13? You are wrong.

Christians from other parts of the world are not going to migrate en masse to the holy land.

So when you receive the Call, hear the whistle, Zechariah 10:6-12, Isaiah 11:11-12, Jeremiah 3:12-14, +, will you say to the Lord: Nah, I want to stay here, the leader of the world government seems like a nice man.

Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years and begins his rule over the nations with a rod of iron. So there will be unsaved people who survive the great tribulation, but they won't be in positions of power.

Most if not all of the ungodly peoples will die at Armageddon.
The world rule of King Jesus for the thousand years, will be benign and an amazing time of living the way God always wanted humans to live.

Your entire post #565, is a litany of Douggggish opinion. Why waste forum space on unsupported guesswork and wacky theories?

 

[Douggg]

An alteration to the given sequence of Revelation made to suit a false belief. Not advisable.
It's impossible; because a scroll cannot be opened before the seals are removed.

The seals on the scroll were opened by Jesus 2000 years ago so that we can know what was inside the scroll.

The 7 seals cover the 7 years before Jesus returns. Seal 1 is the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, given a crown, i.e. anointed the King of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

 

[Douggg]

You know more than Daniel 7:23-24 and Revelation 17:12-13? You are wrong.

The fourth kingdom of the end times will be the dominant kingdom in the world during the 7 years.

So when you receive the Call, hear the whistle, Zechariah 10:6-12, Isaiah 11:11-12, Jeremiah 3:12-14, +, will you say to the Lord: Nah, I want to stay here, the leader of the world government seems like a nice man.

No whistle, but "come up hither". Rapture to heaven.

Most if not all of the ungodly peoples will die at Armageddon.
The world rule of King Jesus for the thousand years, will be benign and an amazing time of living the way God always wanted humans to live.

Psalms 2 starts with the Armageddon event.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[keras]

The seals on the scroll were opened by Jesus 2000 years ago so that we can know what was inside the scroll.

Jesus has opened the first five Seals, that is plainly seen with the disasters throughout the age and the martyrdom of many Christians.
But the Sixth and Seventh Seals remain unopened.
What is Written in the Seals, takes place when they are opened, we are told what happens then, so your idea that only then will we know what they say, is foolishness. Revelation 6 describes Seals 1-6 very well and the 7th Seal is a time gap.

The 7 seals cover the 7 years before Jesus returns. Seal 1 is the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, given a crown, i.e. anointed the King of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

A completely wrong belief. Proved wrong by history and by scriptural truths.
No one is crowned King of Israel, during the end times; in the Bible.

The fourth kingdom of the end times will be the dominant kingdom in the world during the 7 years.

Yes, and for several years before the final 7 years. Must be, for their leader to make a 7 year agreement.

No whistle, but "come up hither". Rapture to heaven.

Zephaniah 10:8 says 'I will whistle for them', [the KJV says 'hiss', which is typical of KJV errors] And typical of your errors, you make it say something entirely different and totally impossible.

 

[Douggg]

Zephaniah 10:8 says 'I will whistle for them', [the KJV says 'hiss', which is typical of KJV errors] And typical of your errors, you make it say something entirely different and totally impossible.

In 1Thessalonians 4:15-18 is the rapture/resurrection event.

The rapture is represented in Revelation 4:1. And the resurrection in Revelation 11:12. Both entail "come up hither". No whistle.

John wrote...


Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John heard a voice like a trumpet, "Come up hither", the same as what the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12 who ascend up to heaven in a cloud hear.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

So, what is presented in those two passages is the full representation of the rapture/resurrection event. John was translated and the two witnesses resurrected - and taken to heaven. The voice they hear is that of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

What is Written in the Seals, takes place when they are opened, we are told what happens then, so your idea that only then will we know what they say, is foolishness. Revelation 6 describes Seals 1-6 very well and the 7th Seal is a time gap.

I didn't write "what they (the seals) say", but what is written in the scroll that Jesus opened.

Jesus removed the seals on the scroll and the contents of what is written in the scroll revealed.

A completely wrong belief. Proved wrong by history and by scriptural truths.
No one is crowned King of Israel, during the end times; in the Bible.

The rider on the white horse, representing a messianic figure, anointed as the King of Israel destroys your concept of the Antichrist doesn't it ?

 

[Jan001]

Peter is comparing a thousand years with the word day. The word day does not mean 24 hours, especially not in the first century. You cannot use 24 hours if I cannot use millennium, which means a thousand. "Mille" is the Latin word for thousand.

You seem to just be denying that the Day of the Lord could actually last a thousand years.

Yes, I am denying that the Day of the Lord could actually last a thousand years.

Mark 13:32-33 “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.

 

[Jan001]

It seems to me that your understanding of the Prophetic Word, is to basically ignore it.
Good luck for you in the hard times to come.

I do not ignore it. I don't think it means what you think it means. Time will tell which of us is correct, if either of us is correct.

 

[keras]

In 1Thessalonians 4:15-18 is the rapture/resurrection event.

There is just no mention of anyone going to heaven or a general resurrection in that Prophecy. Only the GT martyrs will be brought back to life when Jesus Returns. Rev 20:4

come up hither; is call for just a few individuals, not in any way a rapture of the Church.

Jesus removed the seals on the scroll and the contents of what is written in the scroll revealed.

John, in the Book of Revelation, has told us what the Seals, Trumpets and the Bowls will do when the right time for their fulfilment comes.

The rider on the white horse, representing a messianic figure, anointed as the King of Israel destroys your concept of the Antichrist doesn't it ?

This is just speculation and guesswork. The rider in the First Seal just represents war, it has been amply fulfilled by the terrible wars and huge numbers of people killed in battle, during this age.

Present proper Biblical proof for your weird beliefs and cease making wild assertions.

 

[Douggg]

This is just speculation and guesswork. The rider in the First Seal just represents war, it has been amply fulfilled by the terrible wars and huge numbers of people killed in battle, during this age.

Not war, but a messiah figure. The rider on the red horse represents war as peace is taken from the earth.

Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

The peace that will be taken will be that false sense of peace that the world will have, thinking it has entered the messianic age.

The rider on the white horse....

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

From the Judaism 101 site about their expectation of their moshiach (messiah).

"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

In the "Who do you guess/think is the Antichrist" thread, I posted my opinion is possibly Zelensky. He is both a political leader and military leader, and is a Jew.

In Revelation 6:2, the "he went forth conquering, and to conquer" - could represent two things (1) his conquering the Russians in the Russian/Ukraine conflict and then later at the time of the Russsian/Muslim attack on Israel in Gog/Magog as staging his EU army in Greece to act as a deterrent by a show of force.

or (2) in his act to move into the middle east following Gog/Magog, as peace keeper, and if any flare ups among Muslim militant groups in the middle east opposing the Jews tearing down the dome of the rock and al asqa mosque to make room for building their temple - he will quickly put down those Muslim militant groups.

There is just no mention of anyone going to heaven or a general resurrection in that Prophecy.

1Thessalonians4:15-18 is not a general resurrection - but a specific resurrection of them who have died in Christ. And when it happens...

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

in heaven, while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, I am denying that the Day of the Lord could actually last a thousand years.

Mark 13:32-33 “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.

The Second Coming is not the same event as the Day of the Lord.

In your logic, Jesus was placed on the Cross as a baby, and hung there for 33 years without dying. The first coming and the Cross were two distinct events, although the Cross was the result of the first coming.

The Day of the Lord is the result of the Second Coming. Your verses address the Second Coming, not the actual Day of the Lord. Jesus does not show up for the Day of the Lord. Jesus has a lot of work to accomplish, on earth, before the Day of the Lord can even start.

 

[keras]

in heaven, while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth.

An unscriptural fantasy.
I have just provided the verses that prove you wrong, on the 'Vote how many believe rapture.....thread:

The verses proving that Gods people are present in the holy Land during the end times, are:

Revelation 12:14 & 17, Half of the Christian peoples will be kept in a safe place and the other half must stay under the beasts control, for 1260 days.
Revelation 13:7 The 'beast' was [will be] allowed to wage war on Gods people and he will defeat them........Also in Revelation 17:14, Zephaniah 14:1-2

Plus many OT Prophesies; Psalms 69:35-36....those who serve the Lord will possess the holy Land.

People going to live in heaven, is a false teaching, made by those lacking the fortitude to face the difficult times ahead.

The Day of the Lord is the result of the Second Coming

Try it around the other way: The result of the Day of the Lord, will be the Second Coming.
It is plainly stated in Rev 6:17, that the DoL is the Sixth Seal, which must be at least 10 years before the glorious Return.

 

[Douggg]

An unscriptural fantasy.
I have just provided the verses that prove you wrong, on the 'Vote how many believe rapture.....thread:

The verses proving that Gods people are present in the holy Land during the end times, are:

Revelation 12:14 & 17, Half of the Christian peoples will be kept in a safe place and the other half must stay under the beasts control, for 1260 days.
Revelation 13:7 The 'beast' was [will be] allowed to wage war on Gods people and he will defeat them........Also in Revelation 17:14, Zephaniah 14:1-2

Plus many OT Prophesies; Psalms 69:35-36....those who serve the Lord will possess the holy Land.

People going to live in heaven, is a false teaching, made by those lacking the fortitude to face the difficult times ahead.

keras, there are people who miss the rapture, who become Christians during the great tribulation.

 

[keras]

keras, there are people who miss the rapture, who become Christians during the great tribulation.

First; prove there will be a rapture. to heaven.
1 Thess 4:17 may be construed as a 'rapture', but it cannot be to heaven, as Jesus will have departed from heaven and is on His way to Jerusalem.

As for converts during the Great Trib, the Bible does not support that, as Revelation 13:3b=4, says all the peoples not mentioned in Rev 12, will go after the beast in wondering admiration.
Also in Revelation 9:20-21, the rest of mankind .......did not repent of their sins. [rest of mankind, that is: those people who didn't receive white robes and the Seal of God, as per Rev 7.

 

[contratodo]

Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,
and there shall be 1. famines and 2. pestilences, and 3. earthquakes in various places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to tribulation, and you shall be hated by all nations
for my name's (words) sake.
And then shall many have cause to sin, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Matthew 24::7-10