There is no Rapture

[keras]

Isaiah 29 was fulfilled in AD 70 when the Roman armies burnt down the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

Ariel is a symbolic name for Jerusalem.

Isaiah 29 was fulfilled when Jerusalem, prophetically called Ariel, became like the altar, i.e., a scene of holocaust, in AD 70.

Isaiah 35 was fulfilled in the BC 530s when Cyrus allowed the Israelites to return to Israel and rebuild their temple.

Its amazing how preterists just throw the Prophesies into the past.
Do they think they can just play with scripture to suit themselves?

In the past nearly 6000 years of history, it is possible to find some event that roughly fits a Prophecy. But they don't exactly fit, so preterists are the 'near enough is good enough' people.
The end times events will come as a great surprise to them. Shame really, as knowing the future will be a great help in getting thru the hard times ahead.

 

[Guojing]

Not all prophecies are symbolic. The Roman armies, which were comprised of soldiers from the various nations of the Roman Empire, sieged Jerusalem for 42 months, as prophesied. Revelation 11:2


It is because the Jews of the first century sometimes used round numbers with zeros as symbolic numbers. 12,000 and 144,000 are symbolic numbers as is "a thousand."

Psalm 50:10 Every animal in the forest belongs to me, and so do the cattle on a thousand hills.

The "a thousand hills" is symbolic. God actually owns all the cattle on all the hills. There are hundreds of thousands of hills on earth.

Check out: Judaism-numbers

Sometimes approximate numbers are rounded to numbers ending in zero.

Luke 9:13-14 Jesus answered, “You give them something to eat.” But they replied, “We have only five small loaves of bread and two fish. If we are going to feed all these people, we will have to go and buy food.” 14 There were about 5,000 men in the crowd.

Symbolic:

Revelation 14:3-4 And a new song was being sung in front of God's throne and in front of the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn that song, except the 144,000 who had been rescued from the earth. 4 All of these are pure virgins, and they follow the Lamb wherever he leads.


Did God wait until he had exactly 144,000 pure virgins and then stop rescuing the other pure virgins who were still on earth? I don't think so.

​

I see, thanks for explaining.

Would you accept that the 1000 years could actually be literal, or are you 100% convinced it cannot be?

 

[Jan001]

Its amazing how preterists just throw the Prophesies into the past.
Do they think they can just play with scripture to suit themselves?

Jesus plainly stated "this generation," not a future generation. I believe him. These prophecies were fulfilled before 40 years had passed. A generation in Jesus' time was 40 years.

In the past nearly 6000 years of history, it is possible to find some event that roughly fits a Prophecy. But they don't exactly fit, so preterists are the 'near enough is good enough' people. The end times events will come as a great surprise to them. Shame really, as knowing the future will be a great help in getting thru the hard times ahead.

For exactly 42 months, the Roman armies sieged Jerusalem and destroyed it. I think this is very specific. Jesus said it would be the Roman armies which would cause the desolation. They did exactly this and finished in AD 70.

Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Jesus instructed his church (symbolically the the woman) to flee Jerusalem when they saw the Roman armies (comprised of soldiers from many nations) building encampments outside the city. Many Christians fled to Pella or fled to outlying Christian communities in other regions of the Roman empire. No Christian lives were lost.

Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

The "nations" were the many soldiers from the different nations in the Roman armies.

Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

The beast is imperial Rome. Jerusalem is the harlot who rejected her husband, Jesus Christ.

 

[Jan001]

I see, thanks for explaining.

Would you accept that the 1000 years could actually be literal, or are you 100% convinced it cannot be?

If Scripture claimed that it would be exactly one thousand years, that would be a literal one thousand years.

However, "a thousand" is not a specific number. It symbolically means "many."

Deuteronomy 7:8-11 It was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath that he swore to your ancestors, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, 10 and who repays in their own person those who reject him. He does not delay but repays in their own person those who reject him. 11 Therefore, observe diligently the commandment—the statutes and the ordinances—that I am commanding you today.

1 Chronicles 16:15 Remember his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

The Jews of today claim Moses was born in 1393 BCE. He led the Israelites out of Egypt when he was 80 years old. This covenant that Moses brought to the Israelites did not last a literal 1000 generations. It lasted only until Jesus ratified his New Covenant with his own blood shed on the cross. Hebrews 8:8, Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 12:24

With Jesus' understanding of the number of years in a generation (40), the first covenant lasted through about 33 actual generations of Israelites.

Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt in about 1310 BCE. About 1340 years passed before Jesus Christ died on the cross in 33 AD. 1340 divided by 40 equals about 33 generations. This is not one thousand (1000) actual generations. It is "many" generations.

Even if a generation is calculated to be only 20 years, this would still be only about 66 actual generations that the first covenant lasted, definitely not a literal 1000 generations.

 

[keras]

Jesus plainly stated "this generation," not a future generation

You missed out; ....who sees all these things. What things? The sign of Judah's resurgence and return to the holy Land. As just happened in 1948.

Bible Prophecy has many precursors and matching time periods. There is no reason that the 42 month time of gentiles trampling the holy city, will not be properly fulfilled in the future.

We DO have a future, and those who reject what the Bible Prophets tell us about it, are missing out on being prepared for what must happen.

 

[Guojing]

If Scripture claimed that it would be exactly one thousand years, that would be a literal one thousand years.

However, "a thousand" is not a specific number. It symbolically means "many."

So you are convinced there is no way you can be wrong?

That was actually my question.

 

[Jan001]

So you are convinced there is no way you can be wrong?

That was actually my question.

About what, exactly? I can be wrong about a lot of things.

I believe I proved that a thousand generations was not literally one thousand generations, so I already disproved that a thousand means literally one thousand.

 

[Jan001]

You missed out; ....who sees all these things. What things? The sign of Judah's resurgence and return to the holy Land. As just happened in 1948.

Bible Prophecy has many precursors and matching time periods. There is no reason that the 42 month time of gentiles trampling the holy city, will not be properly fulfilled in the future.

We DO have a future, and those who reject what the Bible Prophets tell us about it, are missing out on being prepared for what must happen.

I agree that a prophecy may have more than one fulfillment.

What scripture points to 1948 to be an important prophetic event?

It is true that British interference in the government of Palestine in 1948 showed the mindset of the elites in that they believed that the scriptures in Revelation still had a future fulfillment instead of their actual fulfillment in the 1st century AD.

Why do you believe the Holy Land may only belong to the Jews?

In Jesus' New Covenant, there is now no distinction between Jew and non-Jew.

Jerusalem and the Holy Land belong to all of God's children. It makes no difference what nationality they are.

Genesis 12:7 And the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him: To thy seed will I give this land. And he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

Romans 9:8 That is to say, not they that are the children of the flesh, are the children of God; but they, that are the children of the promise, are accounted for the seed.

Galatians 3:29 And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

The first covenant was fulfilled by Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross, and so its fulfillment made it obsolete and no longer a valid law. Jesus ratified, put into force of law, his New Covenant by his sacrificial death on the cross.

This first covenant is now obsolete, whether the Jews of today believe it or not! The first covenant is now obsolete, whether the Christians of today believe it or not!

Hebrews 8:13a In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete.

 

[Guojing]

About what, exactly? I can be wrong about a lot of things.

I believe I proved that a thousand generations was not literally one thousand generations, so I already disproved that a thousand means literally one thousand.

My original question was "Would you accept that the 1000 years could actually be literal, or are you 100% convinced it cannot be?"

You can believe your interpretation is correct but still accept that there is a chance you might be wrong.

 

[keras]

Why do you believe the Holy Land may only belong to the Jews?

Many Prophesies make it clear; All of the holy Land will belong to the peoples of God. Psalms 37:29, Romans 9:24-26 - and v 27 says: of Israel, only a remnant will be saved.

 

[Jan001]

My original question was "Would you accept that the 1000 years could actually be literal, or are you 100% convinced it cannot be?"

You can believe your interpretation is correct but still accept that there is a chance you might be wrong.

"A thousand" is not a literal number. "One thousand may or may not be a literal number.


Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

This is not a literal one thousand hills. All the cattle on all the hills belong to God.


2 Peter 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is not meant to be literal.
It means that time in our way of thinking is not how God views time.
God actually uses all the time he needs to accomplish his purposes for the salvation of humans, utilizing the free will of people to accomplish his salvation plan.

 

[Jan001]

Many Prophesies make it clear; All of the holy Land will belong to the peoples of God. Psalms 37:29, Romans 9:24-26 - and v 27 says: of Israel, only a remnant will be saved.

The "land," planet earth, will belong to God's people after his second coming.

Matthew 5:5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Yes, only a remnant of the Israelites will be saved, and that is because most of the Israelites, for two thousand years so far, have rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. These "remnant" Israelites will come to believe that Jesus is their Messiah shortly before the end of time.

I think Enoch and Elijah will return to earth and preach to the Jews that Jesus Christ is their Messiah. These men did not physically die, and so they are able to return to the earth in the flesh before the second coming at any time God chooses.


Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 35 Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

 

[keras]

The "land," planet earth, will belong to God's people after his second coming.

Sure; and Jesus will be the Ruler.
But the Land referred to in many Prophesies is Eretz Israel; The holy Land, the area from the Nile to the Euphrates.

You still seem unable to see how the Lord is going to clear and cleanse the holy Land to enable His faithful peoples to live there, Before the glorious Return.

The Devastation of the holy Land:
Ezekiel 20:47 The Lord says: I am about to kindle a fire, one that will consume anything flammable. All of the Land and people from the Negev northward will be scorched by it.

Ezekiel 21:4 It is because I intend to make away with both righteous and wicked alike, that My sword of punishment is against everyone from the Negev northward.

Jeremiah 22:6-7 The Lord says about the Royal House of Judah: Though you are dear to Me, I swear that I shall turn your Land into a desert; a Land of towns no longer inhabited. A destructive host will come upon you and burn your dwellings.

Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish you as you deserve, I shall set fire to your open Land, it will devour everything round about.

Hosea 4:3 Therefore the Land will be desolate, all that lives in it will be wasted, even the wild animals, birds and the fish of the sea will vanish.

Jeremiah 7:34 From the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, I shall banish all sounds of joy and gladness, for the whole Land will become a desert.

Zephaniah 1:18 On the Day of the Lord’s wrath, by the fire of His jealousy, the whole Land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

Jeremiah 8:16 The sound of the Destroyer approaches and the whole Land trembles, it comes and consumes everything, crops, trees, city and citizens alike.

Joel 1:15-20 The Day of the Lord comes; a mighty destruction from the Almighty, all food is cut off, the Land is shrivelled and dry, for fire has consumed the pastures and every tree is burned up. Jeremiah 25:38 The Land has become a waste and ruined because of the fierce anger of the Lord.

Jeremiah 10:19 The Land says: O the pain of my wounds, I have suffered cruel injuries and am laid low, but I must endure it, because the shepherds of the people are fools and never consult the Lord; so their flock is scattered.

Jeremiah 9:10 I shall chant a dirge over the mountains and pastures, for all is scorched and untrodden, I hear no sound of livestock, even the birds have fled and gone.

Jeremiah 4:26-28 The fertile Land has become a wilderness, its towns all razed to the ground before the fierce anger of the Lord. The Lord says: the whole Land will be desolate, totally destroyed. All the earth will be in mourning for this and the sky will be black. For now I have made known My purpose, I will not relent or change it.

Isaiah 32:12 Go into mourning for your pleasant fields and fruitful Land; for every happy home in the bustling city. Houses are forsaken and the streets are deserted.

Isaiah 33:8a-9 The roads are deserted, the Land is parched and dry. Lebanon is dried out, Sharon is like a desert and Bashan and Gilead are stripped bare.

Isaiah 24:10 & 13 The city is shattered and in chaos....all joy and merriment has gone from the Land. Nothing but desolation is left and the entrances to the city are smashed.

Jeremiah 12:4 &10-13 How long must the country lie parched, its grass withered? No birds or beasts are left, because God has judged the wicked inhabitants, they said: God does not see what we are doing. A sword from the Lord has devoured the Land from end to end and now it’s all a desolate wilderness. Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

Then the Lord will send rain, the Land will be regenerated and the Lords people will travel to it and live there; Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16

 

[Guojing]

"A thousand" is not a literal number. "One thousand may or may not be a literal number.


Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

This is not a literal one thousand hills. All the cattle on all the hills belong to God.


2 Peter 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is not meant to be literal.
It means that time in our way of thinking is not how God views time.
God actually uses all the time he needs to accomplish his purposes for the salvation of humans, utilizing the free will of people to accomplish his salvation plan.

So you are 100% convinced about this? It was a yes or no question.

 

[Timtofly]

"A thousand" is not a literal number. "One thousand may or may not be a literal number.


Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

This is not a literal one thousand hills. All the cattle on all the hills belong to God.


2 Peter 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is not meant to be literal.
It means that time in our way of thinking is not how God views time.
God actually uses all the time he needs to accomplish his purposes for the salvation of humans, utilizing the free will of people to accomplish his salvation plan.

Is the Day of the Lord, then, just many years?

Is Satan bound just many years?

Is a millennium just many years?

Does each millennium only have many years, but not quite a thousand years?

Actually when you say this is time from God's perspective, are you not refuting God, that a thousand years could be literal? Is God forcing us to guess on how many years would many years be? Would some guess 700 years, or others guess 800 years, since it is wrong to just go with an exact 1,000 years?

I get the point that in the OT, the writers used a more symbolic process. After God did come in human flesh and lived as a human, could we not conclude that in the NT, Holy Spirit inspired writers could be more exact, as now God views humanity from the human perspective as well? Not that God could not before, but just saying why are we using this excuse that God's perspective cannot be our perspective post the Cross?

 

[Jan001]

Sure; and Jesus will be the Ruler.
But the Land referred to in many Prophesies is Eretz Israel; The holy Land, the area from the Nile to the Euphrates.

You still seem unable to see how the Lord is going to clear and cleanse the holy Land to enable His faithful peoples to live there, Before the glorious Return.

I don't think billions of Christians will ever fit in Israel, but I have not done the math.

Jesus returns just once more, at the end of time, to collect the people on earth, and then all people who have ever lived will be subjected to the final judgment. Jesus ascended into heaven to prepare a place for us there.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?


These events occur when Jesus returns at the end of time:

​

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 ​

Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

The Devastation of the holy Land:
Ezekiel 20:47 The Lord says: I am about to kindle a fire, one that will consume anything flammable. All of the Land and people from the Negev northward will be scorched by it.

Ezekiel 21:4 It is because I intend to make away with both righteous and wicked alike, that My sword of punishment is against everyone from the Negev northward.

Jeremiah 22:6-7 The Lord says about the Royal House of Judah: Though you are dear to Me, I swear that I shall turn your Land into a desert; a Land of towns no longer inhabited. A destructive host will come upon you and burn your dwellings.

Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish you as you deserve, I shall set fire to your open Land, it will devour everything round about.

Hosea 4:3 Therefore the Land will be desolate, all that lives in it will be wasted, even the wild animals, birds and the fish of the sea will vanish.

Jeremiah 7:34 From the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, I shall banish all sounds of joy and gladness, for the whole Land will become a desert.

Zephaniah 1:18 On the Day of the Lord’s wrath, by the fire of His jealousy, the whole Land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

Jeremiah 8:16 The sound of the Destroyer approaches and the whole Land trembles, it comes and consumes everything, crops, trees, city and citizens alike.

Joel 1:15-20 The Day of the Lord comes; a mighty destruction from the Almighty, all food is cut off, the Land is shrivelled and dry, for fire has consumed the pastures and every tree is burned up. Jeremiah 25:38 The Land has become a waste and ruined because of the fierce anger of the Lord.

Jeremiah 10:19 The Land says: O the pain of my wounds, I have suffered cruel injuries and am laid low, but I must endure it, because the shepherds of the people are fools and never consult the Lord; so their flock is scattered.

Jeremiah 9:10 I shall chant a dirge over the mountains and pastures, for all is scorched and untrodden, I hear no sound of livestock, even the birds have fled and gone.

Jeremiah 4:26-28 The fertile Land has become a wilderness, its towns all razed to the ground before the fierce anger of the Lord. The Lord says: the whole Land will be desolate, totally destroyed. All the earth will be in mourning for this and the sky will be black. For now I have made known My purpose, I will not relent or change it.

Isaiah 32:12 Go into mourning for your pleasant fields and fruitful Land; for every happy home in the bustling city. Houses are forsaken and the streets are deserted.

Isaiah 33:8a-9 The roads are deserted, the Land is parched and dry. Lebanon is dried out, Sharon is like a desert and Bashan and Gilead are stripped bare.

Isaiah 24:10 & 13 The city is shattered and in chaos....all joy and merriment has gone from the Land. Nothing but desolation is left and the entrances to the city are smashed.

Jeremiah 12:4 &10-13 How long must the country lie parched, its grass withered? No birds or beasts are left, because God has judged the wicked inhabitants, they said: God does not see what we are doing. A sword from the Lord has devoured the Land from end to end and now it’s all a desolate wilderness. Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

It seems to me that these are all references to past events as punishment for the Israelites' sins. The Lord has already vented his wrath several times on earth. He did not come in person to do it. Sometimes he used the enemies of Israel to do it. He also destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah without coming down to earth from heaven to do it.

Then the Lord will send rain, the Land will be regenerated and the Lords people will travel to it and live there; Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16

It seems to me that this is a reference to the Israelites' return to Jerusalem after exile.

It seems to me that the verses you referenced in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, and Zephaniah are prophetic-speak and are not exactly literal.

 

[Jan001]

So you are 100% convinced about this? It was a yes or no question.

Yes.

 

[Jan001]

Is the Day of the Lord, then, just many years?

There is not just one day of the Lord. His power is used on earth whenever he chooses and on whatever days he chooses.

Is Satan bound just many years?

Satan's power is curbed or lessened for the time period between Jesus' death and resurrection, until shortly before his second coming. Satan's power has been lessened for about 2000 years so far, unless he has been given his full power back for the time we are living in now.

Is a millennium just many years?

Why do you call a biblical "a thousand years" a "millennium"? "A thousand years" in scripture means "many," or else it means we are not meant to know the exact number.

The scriptures were written for the early Christians. We have the benefit of them now, but they were written to the early Christians for their own lifetime and situation.

In the following scripture passage, Peter is teaching the early Christians that the heaven and earth of the Jews, the city of Jerusalem, with its temple and its priestly religious system, will soon face fiery judgment.

2 Peter 3:3-9 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water, 6 through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

No one knew how many exact years it would take until God punished the unbelieving, murdering Jewish leaders for their many sins. In this case, their punishment was from 67 AD until the end of 70 AD. The Jews, their temple, and their city were destroyed by fire, just as Peter prophesied.

Does each millennium only have many years, but not quite a thousand years?

A scriptural "a thousand years" is not equivalent to a millennium of exactly one thousand years.

Actually when you say this is time from God's perspective, are you not refuting God, that a thousand years could be literal? Is God forcing us to guess on how many years would many years be? Would some guess 700 years, or others guess 800 years, since it is wrong to just go with an exact 1,000 years?

The point is that we are not meant to know the exact number of years. The point is that we must always, every moment, be ready to die and be judged.

I get the point that in the OT, the writers used a more symbolic process. After God did come in human flesh and lived as a human, could we not conclude that in the NT, Holy Spirit inspired writers could be more exact, as now God views humanity from the human perspective as well? Not that God could not before, but just saying why are we using this excuse that God's perspective cannot be our perspective post the Cross?

The point is that we are not meant to know the exact number of years that will pass until God works his will on earth. That is his business and not ours. The point is that every Christian must always, at every moment, be ready to die and be judged.

 

[Timtofly]

A scriptural "a thousand years" is not equivalent to a millennium of exactly one thousand years.

Peter is comparing a thousand years with the word day. The word day does not mean 24 hours, especially not in the first century. You cannot use 24 hours if I cannot use millennium, which means a thousand. "Mille" is the Latin word for thousand.

You seem to just be denying that the Day of the Lord could actually last a thousand years.

 

[keras]

It seems to me that the verses you referenced in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, and Zephaniah are prophetic-speak and are not exactly literal.

It seems to me that your understanding of the Prophetic Word, is to basically ignore it.
Good luck for you in the hard times to come.