There is no Rapture

[Jan001]

Revelation 19:11-21 sets it all out very well and Matthew 24:30-31 is indisputable about when His faithful peoples will be gathered.

I understand that this meeting or gathering in the air is at the end of time. This is when Jesus returns to judge everyone who has ever lived. When he returns, all the dead bodies will be raised and re-united with their spirits. These resurrected people will come with Jesus to meet in the air the righteous who are still on earth. When Jesus returns, those who are left on earth will receive their immortal bodies in the twinkling of an eye as they rise to meet Jesus and his angels and saints in the air. When he returns, he will judge the living and the dead. When the judgment is finished, Jesus will then hand his kingdom over to his Father.

John 5:28-30 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Jude 1:14-15 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

 

[keras]

I understand that this meeting or gathering in the air is at the end of time. This is when Jesus returns to judge everyone who has ever lived. When he returns, all the dead bodies will be raised and re-united with their spirits. These resurrected people will come with Jesus to meet in the air the righteous who are still on earth. When Jesus returns, those who are left on earth will receive their immortal bodies in the twinkling of an eye as they rise to meet Jesus and his angels and saints in the air. When he returns, he will judge the living and the dead. When the judgment is finished, Jesus will then hand his kingdom over to his Father.

This simply is not what the Bible tells us.
1 Thess 4:16-17 is quite clear; Jesus will gather His people to He when He Returns.
The only dead people He will raise then, will be the martyrs killed during the 42 months when Satan controls the world. Revelation 20:4-6 NOTE well, in verse 5, ...the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

Only the nations will be Judged when Jesus Returns. Matthew 25:31-33

 

[Jan001]

This simply is not what the Bible tells us.
1 Thess 4:16-17 is quite clear; Jesus will gather His people to He when He Returns.
The only dead people He will raise then, will be the martyrs killed during the 42 months when Satan controls the world. Revelation 20:4-6 NOTE well, in verse 5, ...the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

Only the nations will be Judged when Jesus Returns. Matthew 25:31-33

The Bible shows both of us the same words. The Bible does not tell us, and it can not tell us, if one of us is interpreting these words correctly. We must use critical thinking to figure out what the authors of these writings meant by their words, because we cannot ask them now.

All dead bodies in the graves will be raised at the same exact time and this is at the end of time:

John 5:28-30 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

The “thousand years” is symbolic for the time period between Jesus’ death and resurrection and his second coming.

The first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 occurred when Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus is the firstfruits of this first resurrection. At that time, he accompanied to eternal life in heaven all the made-perfect righteous spirits who were waiting in Hades with Abraham for Jesus to open the gates of heaven. It is these righteous souls who are reigning now in heaven with Jesus, and they will rule with him there until the time of his second coming. Because these souls are in heaven now, they have no fear of the second death, which is condemnation and hellfire.

At that time, the spirits of the people in the Hell part of Hades remained there in hell.

At the time of Jesus' resurrection, the spirits of the people who were in the prison part of Hades remained in prison. They must remain there until Jesus returns at his second coming. These are the spirits of the people who repented when they were drowning while Noah was safe in the ark. These spirits must wait for Jesus' second coming and then they will enter into eternal life. ("The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)" The “thousand years” is symbolic for the time period between Jesus’ death and resurrection and his second coming.

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Matthew 5:23-26 So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

Hebrews 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

We do disagree!

 

[keras]

The “thousand years” is symbolic for the time period between Jesus’ death and resurrection and his second coming.

I reject any theory of belief that has the thousand years, as repeated six times in Revelation 20, as symbolic. It is a literal 1000 years and it commences at the Return and finishes at the Great White Throne Judgment, the comes Eternity.
Logical, sensible and conforms to scripture.

 

[Jan001]

I reject any theory of belief that has the thousand years, as repeated six times in Revelation 20, as symbolic. It is a literal 1000 years and it commences at the Return and finishes at the Great White Throne Judgment, the comes Eternity.
Logical, sensible and conforms to scripture.

You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe. I am also free to believe whatever I wish to believe.

 

[Guojing]

You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe. I am also free to believe whatever I wish to believe.

Would you consider yourself an "amillennialist"?

 

[Jan001]

Actually that's not accurate in Christ Jesus.

We all have free will. I choose to do what I believe Jesus wants me to do. This is our freedom in Christ Jesus. We have the freedom to choose him.

Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become slaves to one another.

1 Peter 2:16 As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil.

 

[Jan001]

Would you consider yourself an "amillennialist"?

I don't use labels. I share my current understanding of the Scriptures, which can be wrong. I will change my understanding if I learn a clearer picture of what the writers of the Scriptures meant to portray.

 

[keras]

You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe. I am also free to believe whatever I wish to believe.

Right; but there are consequences! Especially if we promote and teach our beliefs. James 3:1
One day, we will all stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

It will be very unpleasant for God to ask: Why did you believe things that are not Written in the Bible I gave you?
Believing in Jesus is sufficient for us to be saved, John 3:16, but spreading error and confusion, will mean; saved, yet so as by fire. I Corinthians 3:15

 

[Guojing]

I don't use labels. I share my current understanding of the Scriptures, which can be wrong. I will change my understanding if I learn a clearer picture of what the writers of the Scriptures meant to portray.

But you are at least aware you share the same doctrine of them, regarding the 1000 years being symbolic?

 

[Marilyn C]

I understand that this meeting or gathering in the air is at the end of time. This is when Jesus returns to judge everyone who has ever lived. When he returns, all the dead bodies will be raised and re-united with their spirits. These resurrected people will come with Jesus to meet in the air the righteous who are still on earth. When Jesus returns, those who are left on earth will receive their immortal bodies in the twinkling of an eye as they rise to meet Jesus and his angels and saints in the air. When he returns, he will judge the living and the dead. When the judgment is finished, Jesus will then hand his kingdom over to his Father.

John 5:28-30 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Hi Jan,

However, God`s word tells us that the believers in the Body of Christ do not go to the grave but are `asleep in Christ.` They will be brought with the Lord when He comes for those still alive on earth.

`For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

 

[Jan001]

Right; but there are consequences! Especially if we promote and teach our beliefs. James 3:1
One day, we will all stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

It will be very unpleasant for God to ask: Why did you believe things that are not Written in the Bible I gave you?
Believing in Jesus is sufficient for us to be saved, John 3:16, but spreading error and confusion, will mean; saved, yet so as by fire. I Corinthians 3:15

You are assuming that you are the only person who can possibly be correct. Time will tell...

 

[Jan001]

But you are at least aware you share the same doctrine of them, regarding the 1000 years being symbolic?

I have not studied their views, but if this is their view, I do agree with it.

At the time that the Book of Revelation was written, it showed, in symbolic language, past events, current problems within the church, soon-to-be events, and end-of-time events in vignette form.

 

[Jan001]

Hi Jan,

However, God`s word tells us that the believers in the Body of Christ do not go to the grave but are `asleep in Christ.` They will be brought with the Lord when He comes for those still alive on earth.

`For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

I think we both agree that the spirits of the believers do not go into their graves with their bodies in the cemetery.

"Asleep in Christ" is a mid-eastern way of stating that after righteous people die, their spirits are abiding in heaven with Jesus Christ.

I do believe that these people's spirits are more awake now than when they were on earth.

A spirit cannot literally sleep or die. Matthew 22:31-33

The deceased Samuel's spirit was down in Hades, enjoying being a member of God's people in the bosom of Abraham, when the medium woman called him up to appear to her. 1 Samuel 28:3-19, Luke 16:19-31

When the last trumpet sounds, the spirits of God's people in heaven will rejoin with their resurrected, immortal, perfected bodies, and then these saints will accompany Jesus back to earth to meet in the air Christ's people from the earth who are rising to meet them. As these people rise to meet Jesus and the saints who are accompanying him, their mortal bodies will instantly transform into immortal bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

[keras]

You are assuming that you are the only person who can possibly be correct. Time will tell...

It is the Bible Prophets who are correct. I promote what they told us.
Soon, the Lord will arise and take action in His Creation and for those who have fallen for false teachings, it will be very a difficult. time.

 

[Guojing]

At the time that the Book of Revelation was written, it showed, in symbolic language, past events, current problems within the church, soon-to-be events, and end-of-time events in vignette form.

You are aware that, had you lived in the time period of OT, many predictions of the Christ coming to Israel will largely be viewed as symbolic as well?

Riding on the donkey
Born of a virgin
Not one bone will be broken
Hang on a tree.

Yet, when it came to pass, it was actually almost all literal?

Knowing this, why do you think 1000 years, repeated so many times in Rev 20, is more likely to be symbolic rather than literal?

 

[Jan001]

It is the Bible Prophets who are correct. I promote what they told us.
Soon, the Lord will arise and take action in His Creation and for those who have fallen for false teachings, it will be very a difficult. time.

Of course, the Bible prophets are correct, but not every person understands correctly the meaning of their prophecies.

 

[Jan001]

You are aware that, had you lived in the time period of OT, many predictions of the Christ coming to Israel will largely be viewed as symbolic as well?

Riding on the donkey
Born of a virgin
Not one bone will be broken
Hang on a tree.

Yet, when it came to pass, it was actually almost all literal?

Not all prophecies are symbolic. The Roman armies, which were comprised of soldiers from the various nations of the Roman Empire, sieged Jerusalem for 42 months, as prophesied. Revelation 11:2

Knowing this, why do you think 1000 years, repeated so many times in Rev 20, is more likely to be symbolic rather than literal?

It is because the Jews of the first century sometimes used round numbers with zeros as symbolic numbers. 12,000 and 144,000 are symbolic numbers as is "a thousand."

Psalm 50:10 Every animal in the forest belongs to me, and so do the cattle on a thousand hills.

The "a thousand hills" is symbolic. God actually owns all the cattle on all the hills. There are hundreds of thousands of hills on earth.

Check out: Judaism-numbers

Sometimes approximate numbers are rounded to numbers ending in zero.

Luke 9:13-14 Jesus answered, “You give them something to eat.” But they replied, “We have only five small loaves of bread and two fish. If we are going to feed all these people, we will have to go and buy food.” 14 There were about 5,000 men in the crowd.

Symbolic:

Revelation 14:3-4 And a new song was being sung in front of God's throne and in front of the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn that song, except the 144,000 who had been rescued from the earth. 4 All of these are pure virgins, and they follow the Lamb wherever he leads.


Did God wait until he had exactly 144,000 pure virgins and then stop rescuing the other pure virgins who were still on earth? I don't think so.

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[keras]

Of course, the Bible prophets are correct, but not every person understands correctly the meaning of their prophecies.

We are told the reason for this. It is because people have chosen to believe false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12 Their eyes are blinded and their ears are stopped to the truths of the Prophetic Word.
Only as things unfold, will those people be able to understand. Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 35:4-5,

 

[Jan001]

We are told the reason for this. It is because people have chosen to believe false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12 Their eyes are blinded and their ears are stopped to the truths of the Prophetic Word.
Only as things unfold, will those people be able to understand. Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 35:4-5,

Isaiah 29 was fulfilled in AD 70 when the Roman armies burnt down the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

Ariel is a symbolic name for Jerusalem.

Isaiah 29 was fulfilled when Jerusalem, prophetically called Ariel, became like the altar, i.e., a scene of holocaust, in AD 70.



Isaiah 35 was fulfilled in the BC 530s when Cyrus allowed the Israelites to return to Israel and rebuild their temple.