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A Republican ideal, work until you die

BPPLEE

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Here's where we may disagree. I think the number of people living on welfare is probably trivial, but am open to discussion. But the number of people who make decent money and blow it on drugs, booze, cigarettes, fast food, Door Dash, lottery tickets, manicures, shopping sprees, overpriced vehicles, etc, is depressing.
It seems more abundant to me because I went to school with them and lived in a city that had the highest percentage of people on government assistance in the country.
When I was in school a guy who got free lunch sold it to me at a discount. He got cash and I saved some.
When I was a police officer, when I was in patrol, I spent most of my time dealing with them. The people who hate the police the most are the same ones who call them the most. They couldn’t live without us and I saw abuse of the system. When I was in the drug unit and later on the drug task force I found that a lot of people on government assistance supplemente their income by selling drugs. So I worked where it was common to be on government assistance.
 
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rjs330

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That’s to totally not how the world works. How will a person doing a 7.15 job get more opportunities just because they are older?

You don’t get types of jobs based on how old you are.
Hardly anyone makes 7.15 an hour. And if they do it's not for long.
 
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rjs330

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No, it isn’t. The median wage for full-time workers is about $60k.



No, I don’t. But I think you’re blinded by survivorship bias.
Yes it is. Middle income is a range of wages. $40 grand is on the lower end but it's there.

https://money.usnews.com/money/pers...-i-fall-in-the-american-economic-class-system


No, I don’t. But I think you’re blinded by survivorship bias.
Not at all. I understand how the world works. Not everyone is the same in talent, skills, intelligence, personality, drive, looks etc. etc. Not everyone has the ability to to do any job they wish. For some it's easy, for some it's hard. Bottom line is what you do with what you have is up to you. There are opportunities everywhere. Sometimes you have to go get them.

I noticed you didn't answer how easy you thought it should be. And don't really know what you want to happen. How easy should it be for someone to earn middle income wages? Cause you complained that $40 grand isn't enough. Yet it's middle income wages. What exactly do you think is enough and how do propose to get there?
 
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rjs330

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My wife and I both took early SS and it's enough for a modest but not uncomfortable lifestyle where we live.
Then why all the angst about Social Security in this thread? Social Security is just fine as is. I do t really think SS is going to go broke. There is t a SS anyway. Ita all in the general budget. And as long as there are elderly people who vote Congress isn't going to do away with it. I have a 401K and it's doing pretty well. Yes there are ups and downs. I would like to see this kind of thing as a supplement to SS.
 
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rjs330

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ROFL! Good stuff.
Well I do t know about 90% but the majority of the poor are that way due to self infliction. Bad decisions mostly. Which range all the way from addictions to irresponsibility to laziness.

I also posted other reasons for it as well so I won't list and cover them all here.

No one is holding people back here and holding them in poverty. Except maybe the government.
It's hard for me not to curse when I see people living in the richest country the world has ever known; with a level of income desparity that goes into a perversion say to the poor in their own country "You're not poor. Go to a poor country to see poverty".
Go ahead and curse. Yes the poor here are rich compared to other countries. Prove they are not.


Of my nephews that have gone to school, they have struggled to find "well paying" jobs (though their degrees were pragmatic [BSc and BComm). Though a decade ago those jobs at those pirates would have been very acceptable, now those nephews have partners and scratch along in an apartment.
Sorry don't know what BSc or BComm is. How old are they. How long have they been in the work force? What's wrong with an apartment?
 
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rjs330

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Luxembourg, Switzerland, Singapore, basically the whole Scandinavia...

Also, people in countries that are not richer per capita, but have free education, healthcare and livable social benefits may have a safer and "richer" life, even if financially receiving less money. Good public transport and livable cities may mean they also do not need a car etc.

There are poor people in every country. What differs is how it impacts their daily life and basic needs like food, health, housing, education, commuting - i.e. how their poverty impacts their social mobility and their (or their children) future.
All those countries are very small. About the size of one of our states. They have heavy restrictions all around. Education is free, but not everyone attenda and you can't just take whatever subject you want. They are extremely Nationalistic. The US has good public transportation particularly in the eyeo areas with trains, busses and subways. People there do not just live off welfare and government handouts. You are expected to work. In many places if you don't find a job the government will.find one for you.

An aweful lot of those things are not what people here want.
 
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rjs330

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You seem out of touch with reality. How about one of the 13.6 million single parents?
View attachment 344144
And who's fault is that? It's not mine. We need to hold the fathers accountable. Making them work if necessary. That should take care of a lot of issues.
 
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trophy33

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All those countries are very small. About the size of one of our states
The point was that there are quite a lot of countries in which poor people (and also the middle class, IMO) can have a better quality of life than in the USA.

Sure, the USA is bigger, its a union of 50 states. Only Russia, Canada and China are bigger than the USA.
 
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BCP1928

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All those countries are very small. About the size of one of our states. They have heavy restrictions all around. Education is free, but not everyone attenda and you can't just take whatever subject you want. They are extremely Nationalistic. The US has good public transportation particularly in the eyeo areas with trains, busses and subways. People there do not just live off welfare and government handouts. You are expected to work. In many places if you don't find a job the government will.find one for you.

An aweful lot of those things are not what people here want.
Yeah, we're loyal, upstanding patriotic Americans. We don't want universal health care, paid time off, child care, family leave, good public transport, decent public schools, cheap higher Ed, nor none of that commie stuff, 'cause we got boot straps to lift ourself up. Anyway, what happens when you get suckered in by those give-aways is that the working class generally gets a bigger piece of the pie, and we certainly don't want that here.
 
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Larniavc

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Hardly anyone makes 7.15 an hour. And if they do it's not for long.
But why should they make that money at all? If a job is important enough to get a person to do it that person should be paid enough to live on. If the business cannot afford that it should go out of business.
 
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rambot

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Well I do t know about 90% but the majority of the poor are that way due to self infliction. Bad decisions mostly. Which range all the way from addictions to irresponsibility to laziness.
I also posted other reasons for it as well so I won't list and cover them all here.
Step one in thr prosperity gospel thinking. If you're poor it's because you sin and it's punishment.

No one is holding people back here and holding them in poverty. Except maybe the government.
Imagine if suddenly all those lazy poor people suddenly all went to school and got better training, and experience. Let's say the bottom 40% of the wealth grid suddenly did that; 120million or so. Bam! All motivated to "make more money" something they (apparently) didn't want to do before.

pray, how would that solve ANYTHING? what jobs are they going to take? Its not as though there are actually a lot of good paying jobs and just getting the training is gonna solve your problems. All the good jobs are take already. There's no option for them. American society needs people to take those crap jobs because they need to get done. But they are unwilling to pay a decent wage
Go ahead and curse. Yes the poor here are rich compared to other countries. Prove they are not.
1. Why shouldn't they be? It seems hilarious that America even HAS a problem with poverty given the wealth held within. Like talk about poorly managed.

2.poverty in europe is just as good if not better. I'd argue the same in Canada and Australia.

Sorry don't know what BSc or BComm is. How old are they. How long have they been in the work force? What's wrong with an apartment?
Bachelors of science and bachelor's of commerce.
Mid late 20s. Few years. Nothing wrong with an apartment.
 
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BPPLEE

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Yeah, we're loyal, upstanding patriotic Americans. We don't want universal health care, paid time off, child care, family leave, good public transport, decent public schools, cheap higher Ed, nor none of that commie stuff, 'cause we got boot straps to lift ourself up. Anyway, what happens when you get suckered in by those give-aways is that the working class generally gets a bigger piece of the pie, and we certainly don't want that here.
Well I get healthcare and paid time off through my employer. I earn 12 hours PTO every two weeks and more sick time (EID)
If I’m sick that comes out of EID and doesn’t cost me any PTO.
The public schools were okay for my son until 6th grade then I paid for a private school. Even though it was private it accepted minorities and had probably 40% or more black students.
The referees at football games were very biased against us because we had black players but the headmaster who was also football coach said we just had to be that much better.
I was able to put my son through college and law school. It wasn’t all that hard.
We didn’t have public transportation in Selma except for handicapped and elderly people. My job in route sales provided me with a take home car, then I was a K9 Officer so I had a take home car then had one as an investigator. I’ve had my own vehicles since 2008.
Poor people usually have Medicaid and they use the emergency room a lot.
I don’t know why my state doesn’t participate in the Medicaid expansion, the federal government pays 90% of the cost so I really don’t understand the decision not to participate.
 
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BPPLEE

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Step one in thr prosperity gospel thinking. If you're poor it's because you sin and it's punishment.


Imagine if suddenly all those lazy poor people suddenly all went to school and got better training, and experience. Let's say the bottom 40% of the wealth grid suddenly did that; 120million or so. Bam! All motivated to "make more money" something they (apparently) didn't want to do before.

pray, how would that solve ANYTHING? what jobs are they going to take? Its not as though there are actually a lot of good paying jobs and just getting the training is gonna solve your problems. All the good jobs are take already. There's no option for them. American society needs people to take those crap jobs because they need to get done. But they are unwilling to pay a decent wage

1. Why shouldn't they be? It seems hilarious that America even HAS a problem with poverty given the wealth held within. Like talk about poorly managed.

2.poverty in europe is just as good if not better. I'd argue the same in Canada and Australia.


Bachelors of science and bachelor's of commerce.
Mid late 20s. Few years. Nothing wrong with an apartment.
Doesn’t fit the narrative that there are jobs that we need illegal immigrants to fill and that if we deported them it would cause a major recession or depression.
You can’t have it both ways
 
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rambot

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Doesn’t fit the narrative that there are jobs that we need illegal immigrants to fill and that if we deported them it would cause a major recession or depression.
You can’t have it both ways
OK. That's a narrative I'm not telling so I'm not having it both ways.

Or are you worried that hard working motivated illegal immigrants are going to take good paying jobs away from lazy entitled Americans who don't want to work?
 
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BCP1928

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Doesn’t fit the narrative that there are jobs that we need illegal immigrants to fill and that if we deported them it would cause a major recession or depression.
You can’t have it both ways
Because many employers would rather have employees who are willing to work without regard for US labor laws (as weak as they are compared to other modern economies).
 
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BCP1928

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I don’t know why my state doesn’t participate in the Medicaid expansion, the federal government pays 90% of the cost so I really don’t understand the decision not to participate.
That's the kind of thing that those of us on "The Left" don't know either.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Yes it is. Middle income is a range of wages. $40 grand is on the lower end but it's there.

https://money.usnews.com/money/pers...-i-fall-in-the-american-economic-class-system
A couple things: that data was from the first half of 2023, so it's a little outdated now (not a lot, but a little). The current BLS data covers all of 2023.

But also, its definition of lower/middle/upper income is based on Pew's definition that defines "middle" as being between 2/3 and 2x the median. That's not an unreasonable guideline, but it is a bit arbitrary and it doesn't account for the way incomes are distributed above or below the median, which can matter if you're talking about a number on the cusp of a threshold, like we are.

Say you have 9 people, and their wages are $1/hr, $2/hr, $3/hr, etc up through $9/hr. The median is $5/hr.
But if you have four people making $1/hr, four making $9/hr, and one making $5/hr, then the median is still $5/hr.

What constitutes "middle income" for both of those groups is quite different, even though the median is the same.

Here's the BLS wage data broken down by quartile and top/bottom decile:

$20/hr or $800/wk puts you just over the top of the first quartile, by $8/wk. So probably 26th percentile. According to Pew, you're still in the "middle" if 3/4 of workers make more than you. Granted, this is subjective, but I think Pew's definition of "middle" is too broad. The lower bound of their definition extends down into the first quartile and the upper bound extends well into the fourth quartile. Using the current median of $1170/wk, their "middle" covers $780/wk - $2340/wk, or $40,560/yr - $121,680. Does that look right to you? That doesn't look right to me. Do you consider $40k/yr to be as "middle" as $120k/yr? Because that's how Pew's range defines it.

I noticed you didn't answer how easy you thought it should be. And don't really know what you want to happen. How easy should it be for someone to earn middle income wages? Cause you complained that $40 grand isn't enough. Yet it's middle income wages. What exactly do you think is enough and how do propose to get there?

I didn't answer because it's a hard question with multiple answers.

I think minimum wages should be raised and I think education and other support services need massive investments. I think efforts should be made to increase worker mobility, like severing the link between employment and health insurance, requiring every job posting to list a reasonable (and accurate) wage range. I think some requirements should be instituted to give workers more regular, predictable, and consolidated schedules so that if they want to work multiple jobs, they have the availability to do so (e.g. first shift at one job, second shift at another). Non-competes should be outlawed everywhere except in very specific circumstances for very high-level workers. Union power should be strengthened (which I concede doesn't increase worker mobility, but makes it up in other areas). There are ways to get more money into workers' pockets without handing them a fistful of cash.

On a much larger and longer scale, I think there should be efforts made to make our population less diffuse - not because I have anything wrong with rural living (on the contrary, I think it has many appeals), but because it's clear that isolation and low density is expensive and leads to problems over time. This congregating of people could result from many efforts such as subsidized relocation, increased immigration, and zoning and other legislative changes. But we have a lot of small towns that are slowly dying but are too big to become ghost towns but too small and remote to attract enough people to thrive.

As dumb as I think Trump's future megacity plan is, I think some of the concepts embedded within it have merit. I think civic planners will have to be more deliberate and involved in choosing where to allow certain industry to set up so they can construct dense cities with diverse economic bases instead of letting everything sprawl and/or set up around a single employer.
 
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