Is believing/faith a work ?

[zoidar]

I was taught the meanings of Scripture and still had no faith in them.
It's not the preaching and teaching of the Word that brought me to faith.

Hi Clare,

What brought you to faith?

 

[Brightfame52]

A Reformed Baptist chaplain (calvinist persuasion) once emphatically declared in a YMCA Bible Study group (that he was leading) that ..."You can't invite Jesus into your heart". No one challenged him because he believved ... "If you condition salvation on something you DO its work."

No one in the group of 8 men challenged him. If someone had he would've turned on them. Kind of like a college professor that belittles an outspoken Christian student in his psychology or philosophy class.

Someone in the group informed the YMCA Director which resulted in this chaplain giving a half-hearted apology to the group. In other words the Director o the YMCA and members in the group had enough sense to realize this chaplain had his own religious agenda.

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

 

[zoidar]

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

Were you born into this world? Since salvation is conditioned on being born as a baby is it a work (by your mother)? You see the problem with your argument?

Doing by itself doesn't make it a work. Asking for forgiveness is a doing, not a work (if anything it is an "anti-work", the complete opposite of a work). Paying back what you owe is a doing and a work. You must make the distinction.

 

[Brightfame52]

Were you born into this world? Since salvation is conditioned on being born as a baby is it a work (by your mother)? You see the problem with your argument?

Doing by itself doesn't make it a work. Asking for forgiveness is a doing, not a work (if anything it is an "anti-work", the complete opposite of a work). Paying back what you owe is a doing and a work. You must make the distinction.

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

 

[zoidar]

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

If you would say: "If you trust in anything else than Christ for salvation, you trust in works." That I would say is correct. But you can not say trust is a work. If you do, you really need to rethink it all. What you condition salvation on is a totally different story.

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

Doing is not equal to works. At least not in the Bible.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

True, but you must condition salvation on something you ARE.
Ye shall know them by their fruits...
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them....
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new...
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments...
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked...

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

That's all New Covenant scripture...

 

[com7fy8]

So how are we saved then? Paul says it's through faith we are saved, but if faith is a work and salvation is not of works how is that possible?

Paul says >

"not by works of righteousness which we have done,"

in Titus 3:5.

But God has done His works, including Jesus dying for us on the cross. And preaching is a work included in God's process of saving people. So, there are works involved.

 

[Brightfame52]

If you would say: "If you trust in anything else than Christ for salvation, you trust in works." That I would say is correct. But you can not say trust is a work. If you do, you really need to rethink it all. What you condition salvation on is a totally different story.


Doing is not equal to works. At least not in the Bible.

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

The word for works is the greek word ergon and it means:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
2. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Its translated doing here Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So doing does equal works

 

[Brightfame52]

True, but you must condition salvation on something you ARE.
Ye shall know them by their fruits...
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them....
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new...
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments...
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked...

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

That's all New Covenant scripture...

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

 

[zoidar]

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

The word for works is the greek word ergon and it means:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
2. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Its translated doing here Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So doing does equal works

What I meant was from how you understand the Biblical concept of "doing", all kinds of doing is not a work. Repentance, prayer are not works, yet something you "do". You understand? So it's not that much what the word "works" can mean but what Paul means by work.

If you can show in Scripture where prayers or faith are referred to as works, it would help your case a lot.

Edit: had to edit the post. I hardly knew what I wrote myself.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

If God conditions salvation on faith, it's not works.

"it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe" (1 Co 1:21)​

 

[Brightfame52]

What I meant was from how you understand the Biblical concept of "doing", all kinds of doing is not a work. Faith, repentance, prayer are not works, and not "doing", but it's something you do. You understand? So it's not that much what the word "works" can mean but what Paul means by work.

If you can show in Scripture where prayers or faith are referred to as works, it would help your case a lot.

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

 

[Brightfame52]

If God conditions salvation on faith, it's not works.

"it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe" (1 Co 1:21)​

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

 

[fhansen]

If you believe your faith, your believing is a condition you meet to get saved, that's works, contrary to Grace !

Nope-and repeating the same misconception won't make it true. You've bought into a relatively novel misunderstanding of the gospel. God isn't interested in making puppets, or He never would've given man a choice to begin with Eden. We can't possibly be saved without Him-we wouldn't even know where to start- but He won't save us without our allowing it, without our cooperating in His work.

Autonomy from God was the problem to begin with, since man made the first wrong choice in Eden. Our faith is all about our coming full circle back to Him, with the help of grace, about our acquiescing, so to speak. Either way, grace precedes everything. Again, Paul objected to works of the law, which means "me only"- proving my "righteousness". Our faith is about uniting with God, as is the right and just situation for man, as we acknowledge that we have no righteousness on our own. whereupon our lives begin to be lived in willing subjugation to Him, based on faith, hope, and, most importantly, love.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

Christianity is all about our being with Him, and increasingly nearer and nearer to Him.

 

[Clare73]

Hi Clare,

What brought you to faith?

The one and only source that brings everyone to faith.

After 15 years apart from the Scriptures, "certain circumstances" caused me to look at them again, wherein the powerful overwhelmingly convincing witness of the Holy Spirit gave me to know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that they were the very truth of God from the very mouth of God in the very word of God.

I've been a student of Scripture ever since.

 

[Clare73]

True, but you must condition salvation on something you ARE.
Ye shall know them by their fruits...
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them....
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new...
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments...
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked...

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

That's all New Covenant scripture...

Yes, true faith always has works, they are the proof of true faith, no good works = no true faith (Jas 2:22-23).
But those works of faith do not save, only the faith of those works saves (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[AbbaLove]

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

The problem with your over simplistic theology is your mistaken thinkng that "works" leading to salvation are never inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit, but only by ones self-righteous mindset.

The Apostle James was not of a pre-Roman Catholic or pre-Calvinist mindset. .So it would benefit you NOT to misinterpret the inspired words of James ...

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.​

By their fruits you will know them
​

 

[Brightfame52]

The problem with your over simplistic theology is your mistaken thinkng that "works" leading to salvation are never inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit, but only by ones self-righteous mindset.

The Apostle James was not of a pre-Roman Catholic or pre-Calvinist mindset. .So it would benefit you NOT to misinterpret the inspired words of James ...

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.​

By their fruits you will know them
​

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

Maybe one day you will. I hope so.

 

[biblelesson]

If you condition salvation on something you DO its works.

Faith can’t be works because salvation is designed by God. To believe is not something we do, it is a type of faith we obtain from God. The type of faith that leads to salvation is not something man can posses, but something that’s given. Man is incapable of possessing the type of faith required for salvation, that would be like saying we can dictate our own salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” 9 “not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

No part of salvation can be credited to man, not even faith. There is a particular faith we must posses, ordained by God in Abraham; we must posses that of Abraham’s faith for righteousness to be imputed on us. If Abraham died many hundred years before Jesus was born, then how can we exercise Abraham’s faith? God is doing the work of heaven on us here on earth - the faith required to be saved comes from God by His Spirit - this is called predestination, Romans 8:29 KJV.

In the operation of Abraham’s faith, repentance even comes from God, “…if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;” 2 Timothy 2:25 KJV

So we can’t condition salvation on anything we do, salvation is conditioned on what God does in us by His Spirit, Philippians 2:13 KJV

We are saved by grace through faith! Faith comes by hearing - the word of God, Romans 10:17 KJV