Can we lose our salvation?

[tonychanyt]

See Can we lose our salvation?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The English word "save" or "salvation" is polysemantic. It has at least the following meanings:

1. It could mean being physically rescued at a point in time situation (Exodus 14:13, H3444, יְשׁוּעָה yeshuah). In this case, you may need to be rescued again. You can be rescued or saved multiple times. The only places in the OT where yeshuah is used unambiguously as saving people from sins are in Eze 36:29 and 37:23.
2. It could mean being accepted officially by a certain church/denomination. When you lose your membership, you lose this salvation.
3. It could describe a shallow Christian who is a Christian in name only (1 John 2:19). He looks like a Christian and talks like a Christian. Instead of serving God, he wants God to serve him. After a while, he goes away because he no longer finds God useful.
4. It could describe a serious Christian. He thinks he has been regenerated. He is in the faith (2Co 13:5, Col 1:23) and performs Christian works sincerely for years but departs from the faith eventually (1 Tim 4:1).
5. It could mean that your name is written in the Book of Life. Later, God may erase or at least threaten to erase that name, and you may lose this type of salvation, Ex 32:32, Rev 3:5.
6. It could mean that you have the nascent Paraclete dwelling in you, but later on you abandon him.
7. Finally, it could mean being saved from the physical now onto eternity. The Paraclete dwells in you presently. You keep growing in the Spirit and abiding in Christ for the rest of your life.

Can you lose your salvation?

Yes, in many ways: John 15:2, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 6:4, 1 Corinthians 15:2.

Can you lose your Paraclete?

It is possible, but I don't think I can. The Paraclete does what he does. He chooses to dwell in a person by making a direct connection with the person's human spirit.

Does this mean that we are free to sin?

No, I am not asserting unconditional eternal security. If the Paraclete dwells in you, you abide in Jesus. As long as you abide in Jesus, you are saved.

Salvation cannot be lost. Do people even understand what God has done through His Son on the cross?

We are all sinners. God is just, therefore, every sin must be punished. We deserve God's eternal wrath for our sins. But God is merciful, and He sent a Saviour, His Son who never sinned, never even desired to sin, to purchase God's people on the cross with His blood, thus satisfying God's just wrath and reconciling us with God. Either Jesus took the punishment for your sins, or you will be punished for them. Either Jesus took the wrath of God, or you will. If Jesus paid the full penalty for your sin, the judgement is no longer on you, because you have been justified by a sinless Saviour.

Jesus did not partially pay for the sin, He paid for them in full. If he paid only partially, then none would be saved. Jesus' sacrifice was perfect. Not imperfect as those who say that salvation can be lost. God's grace cannot be earned either, otherwise it's not grace. The people who think they can be saved by deeds, people who think they can add anything to Jesus' sacrifice, are rejecting the perfect sacrifice of Jesus. Honestly, what do sinners want to add to Jesus' sacrifice? Has God not done enough for you? God gave everything He had for our salvation, but people still say that is not enough? God gave His only Son, but people still want to add deeds to that. Well, let me tell you something if that is the case; one day, you will stand in front of God's judgement throne, and tell Him, He has not done enough for your salvation, that sending His only Son, was not enough. I don't think there is anything worse that you can tell God.

 

[tonychanyt]

Salvation cannot be lost.

Define salvation.

 

[d taylor]

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​

A born again child of God can not lose the Eternal Life (salvation) they received, at the very moment of belief in Jesus for Eternal Life.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Define salvation.

The moment Jesus Christ says 'I have died for you on the cross, you are forgiven'

 

[tonychanyt]

The moment Jesus Christ says 'I have died for you on the cross, you are forgiven'

I am having trouble understanding you.

If a person says, "Jesus has died for me on the cross", then he is saved for eternal life and cannot lose his eternal life no matter what.

True?

 

[Roderick Spode]

The English word "save" or "salvation" is polysemantic. It has at least the following meanings:

1. It could mean being physically rescued at a point in time situation (Exodus 14:13, H3444, יְשׁוּעָה yeshuah). In this case, you may need to be rescued again. You can be rescued or saved multiple times. The only places in the OT where yeshuah is used unambiguously as saving people from sins are in Eze 36:29 and 37:23.
2. It could mean being accepted officially by a certain church/denomination. When you lose your membership, you lose this salvation.
3. It could describe a shallow Christian who is a Christian in name only (1 John 2:19). He looks like a Christian and talks like a Christian. Instead of serving God, he wants God to serve him. After a while, he goes away because he no longer finds God useful.
4. It could describe a serious Christian. He thinks he has been regenerated. He is in the faith (2Co 13:5, Col 1:23) and performs Christian works sincerely for years but departs from the faith eventually (1 Tim 4:1).
5. It could mean that your name is written in the Book of Life. Later, God may erase or at least threaten to erase that name, and you may lose this type of salvation, Ex 32:32, Rev 3:5.
6. It could mean that you have the nascent Paraclete dwelling in you, but later on you abandon him.
7. Finally, it could mean being saved from the physical now onto eternity. The Paraclete dwells in you presently. You keep growing in the Spirit and abiding in Christ for the rest of your life.

Can you lose your salvation?

Yes, in many ways: John 15:2, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 6:4, 1 Corinthians 15:2.

Can you lose your Paraclete?

It is possible, but I don't think I can. The Paraclete does what he does. He chooses to dwell in a person by making a direct connection with the person's human spirit.

Does this mean that we are free to sin?

No, I am not asserting unconditional eternal security. If the Paraclete dwells in you, you abide in Jesus. As long as you abide in Jesus, you are saved.

The problem with the idea of a child of God potentially losing their salvation, is that the various ideas people attach to scripture is wide enough to include about everyone. An example of scripture sometimes used to convey this idea:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’


44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’


45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

If we look at these goats as Christians who were at one point saved, the problem would be that we'd have to assume this person never showed compassion to anyone including a believer, or it's an issue of balancing out good deeds over bad, or the very last interaction with another before they die might cancel out any good deed, even if many.

The same would hold true for the sheep in these verses. Do we assume they always did good deeds/showed compassion, etc.?

 

[tonychanyt]

The problem with the idea of a child of God potentially losing their salvation

Define salvation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke of a covenant to come in which He would permanently indwell believers.

A central factor to this indwelling is the 'Spirit of the Fear of the Lord' which is one of the seven Spirits of God mentioned in Isaiah 11.

This Spirit was promised to seal future believers against any sin that would threaten their salvation rendering them incapable of falling away.

The seven Spirits of God that indwell us are also referred to in Revelation.

However to be saved one must give up the rights to your life and become born again from above.

This act of surrender gives Him permission to keep you away from acting on sinful choices that present themselves.

The Fear of Him therefore is a friend indeed.

Jeremiah 32:40​

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.

 

[Roderick Spode]

Define salvation.

Salvation from the penalty of sin. From that which would cause a person to be rejected, not allowed into God's kingdom.

 

[Roderick Spode]

Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke of a covenant to come in which He would permanently indwell believers.

A central factor to this indwelling is the 'Spirit of the Fear of the Lord' which is one of the seven Spirits of God mentioned in Isaiah 11.

This Spirit was promised to seal future believers against any sin that would threaten their salvation rendering them incapable of falling away.

The seven Spirits of God that indwell us are also referred to in Revelation.

However to be saved one must give up the rights to your life and become born again from above.

This act of surrender gives Him permission to keep you away from acting on sinful choices that present themselves.

The Fear of Him therefore is a friend indeed.

Jeremiah 32:40​

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.

Makes sense. It's actually not really that we can't lose it, but that God will prevent it.

 

[tonychanyt]

The seven Spirits of God that indwell us are also referred to in Revelation.

verse?

 

[tonychanyt]

Salvation from the penalty of sin. From that which would cause a person to be rejected, not allowed into God's kingdom.

How does one obtain this salvation?

 

[Carl Emerson]

verse?

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
2. Revelation 3:1
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

​

Isaiah 11:1

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.

2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

3 And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make decisions by what His ears hear;

4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the humble of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

5 Also righteousness will be the belt around His hips,
And faithfulness the belt around His waist.

 

[tonychanyt]

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
2. Revelation 3:1
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

​

Isaiah 11:1

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.

2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

3 And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make decisions by what His ears hear;

4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the humble of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

5 Also righteousness will be the belt around His hips,
And faithfulness the belt around His waist.

The word "dwell" is not mentioned in any of these verses.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The word "dwell" is not mentioned in any of these verses.

What is your point ? The Spirit of God comprises of seven spirits as listed.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I am having trouble understanding you.

If a person says, "Jesus has died for me on the cross", then he is saved for eternal life and cannot lose his eternal life no matter what.

True?

Not when a person says it, but when God says it, as God is the only one who can forgive sins. Once God says 'your sins are forgiven' you are saved. (At the same time, the Holy Spirit makes one born again).

Why? Because Jesus paid the penalty for that persons sins in full. Jesus took the punishment, He took the wrath of God for that person. Jesus then continues washing away the sin for that person's life until the Lord takes him/her to Heaven.

People often argue that then you can just freely sin. Not so. Sin is still deadly, it still has consequences. And if you are a true believer, you hate sin. This is how you can recognise a true believer from a false one. A true believer resembles Christ more and more, he walks with God, he walks the narrow path, he hates sin and desires to obey God. Yes, even a true believer will sin, but it won't be a habitual sin, and he won't practice it, and he will repent. A truly saved person will also have the Holy Spirit producing the fruit in him, something that cannot be faked. If a person is truly saved, you will see a big difference in how they live now vs how they lived before. If someone claims to be saved, but they still live the same life as before, I highly doubt they are truly saved.

 

[tonychanyt]

What is your point ? The Spirit of God comprises of seven spirits as listed.

My point is this. You claimed: The seven Spirits of God that indwell us are also referred to in Revelation.

But none of the references says that the seven Spirits indwell us.

 

[tonychanyt]

Not when a person says it, but when God says it, as God is the only one who can forgive sins. Once God says 'your sins are forgiven' you are saved. (At the same time, the Holy Spirit makes one born again).

What is the concrete evidence that a person has salvation? How does he know for sure?

 

[Carl Emerson]

My point is this. You claimed: The seven Spirits of God that indwell us are also referred to in Revelation.

But none of the references says that the seven Spirits indwell us.

The Seven Spirits of God are the Holy Spirit that indwells us.

In the same way as the Godhead has three parts, the Holy Spirit has seven parts.