Why I Am A Continuationist

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't have a ministry with my tongues gift, nor do I have a ministry with my gift of prophesying. So no, I don't give messages by The Holy Spirit in the assembly, other people in the congregation do when they are prompted by The Holy Spirit.

The standard for corporate speaking is always Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort.

The message will strengthen you inside throughout the message when it is The Holy Spirit speaking, and the message will be encouraging and comforting. The icing on the cake is the peace of The Holy Spirit tends to settle upon you either during it or after it, or even both.

If none of those things happen (which you will notice rather quickly) then it is not The Holy Spirit speaking. More likely it is just that person.

Fair enough.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Just for interest sake: When someone gets up and says "The Holy Spirit spoke to me..." and said a whole of of things that either seemed too good to be true, or depressingly negative, how would you judge whether that word came from God or not? (I'm not trying to bait you. I really do want to know.)

I would react thus, "Oh dear! not another revelation from someone's imagination or dreams or from a bad bit of cheese troubling their digestion and mind"; because I do not think anyone's messages should be treated as divine revelations for humankind's obedient reception, but I do treat what people say with the same care regardless of their stated or unstated claim to be the recipient of some message from God. In short, if what a person says is good sense then it is worth hearing otherwise it is just words in the air to be as quickly forgotten as the time it took to speak them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would react thus, "Oh dear! not another revelation from someone's imagination or dreams or from a bad bit of cheese troubling their digestion and mind"; because I do not think anyone's messages should be treated as divine revelations for humankind's obedient reception, but I do treat what people say with the same care regardless of their stated or unstated claim to be the recipient of some message from God. In short, if what a person says is good sense then it is worth hearing otherwise it is just words in the air to be as quickly forgotten as the time it took to speak them.

In my view, reading 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is not talking about predictive or "new revelation" type prophecies. He says that prophecy should be for exhortation, edification and comfort. This covers a range of spoken ministry. A sermon that speaks to the heart, a word of encouragement to someone, a counsellor giving advice to a client, someone expounding a passage of Scripture. These are all prophetic if I read Paul right. He doesn't mention anything about anyone getting up and announcing, "Thus says the Lord and here is the latest new revelation." The "thus says the Lord" type prophecies were the thing in the OT prophets, but not so in the New Testament. New Testament prophecies are for the building up of believers' faith in Christ and what He did for them on the Cross. I don't support prophetic guidance, because we have the indwelling Holy Spirit for that. If someone came to me and said, "I have a prophetic word for you" and started telling me what I should do with my life, I would say, "Thanks but no thanks". Any prophetic word that says that one is going to be prosperous, famous or have a great ministry for God, would, in my opinion, be tending more to occult divination than a true prophetic word from the Lord. New Testament prophecy is not akin to staring into a crystal ball and telling someone's fortune or their horoscope.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In my view, reading 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is not talking about predictive or "new revelation" type prophecies. He says that prophecy should be for exhortation, edification and comfort. This covers a range of spoken ministry. A sermon that speaks to the heart, a word of encouragement to someone, a counsellor giving advice to a client, someone expounding a passage of Scripture. These are all prophetic if I read Paul right. He doesn't mention anything about anyone getting up and announcing, "Thus says the Lord and here is the latest new revelation." The "thus says the Lord" type prophecies were the thing in the OT prophets, but not so in the New Testament. New Testament prophecies are for the building up of believers' faith in Christ and what He did for them on the Cross. I don't support prophetic guidance, because we have the indwelling Holy Spirit for that. If someone came to me and said, "I have a prophetic word for you" and started telling me what I should do with my life, I would say, "Thanks but no thanks". Any prophetic word that says that one is going to be prosperous, famous or have a great ministry for God, would, in my opinion, be tending more to occult divination than a true prophetic word from the Lord. New Testament prophecy is not akin to staring into a crystal ball and telling someone's fortune or their horoscope.

One who has a mind to build up the Church can do so without ever claiming to have received his own private revelation from God. Nearly all of the canonised saints who taught a way to live and to pray did so without claiming that they were prophets or seers or spokesmen for the Holy Spirit. I'd rather read a book from one of the canonised saints than I would a litany of claimed revelations.

 

[Bobber]

It is true to say there is little in scripture that says the charismatic gifts will cease. But equally there is little to say that the gifts will definitely continue.

Why should it have to say that? If they were to end there would have to be a statement to say such. If a governement made a law about traffic speeds you better know they're still in force until they say different.

There is simply insufficient evidence from scripture for either viewpoint to form a biblical doctrine.

Or is the evidence there but people just long to and seek to reject it.

What we can do however is look at history. Did the charismatic gifts cease or not? The answer is yes they did. The late church fathers confirmed that tongues died out by the 4th century AD.

That should surprise us though should it. Look what was happening at the time. Doesn't mean God phased it out.

We can speculate as to why the gifts ceased.

Now you're assuming they have. Before you said the evidence isn't clear either way.

 

[Bobber]

I like what Paul said, "But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

In other words, five intelligible words in a sermon from a called pastor is better than babbling a whole night of garble and gibberish.

Nope this is not slander.

No offence but aren't' you babbling here yourself? You're talking about a man Paul, which said I speak in tongues more than you all.....and you seem to make light of what Paul does by calling it babble, garble and gibberth. Or perhaps you can clarify and acknowledge that Paul considered praying in tongues very beneficial.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One who has a mind to build up the Church can do so without ever claiming to have received his own private revelation from God. Nearly all of the canonised saints who taught a way to live and to pray did so without claiming that they were prophets or seers or spokesmen for the Holy Spirit. I'd rather read a book from one of the canonised saints than I would a litany of claimed revelations.

That's in line with what Peter said: "No prophecy is of private interpretation but holy men spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." What this means is that prophecy is not to be used for any person's private revelation from God. In my opinion, the full revelation of God, His plan of Salvation, the finished work of Christ on the Cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in believers is contained in the written Scriptures.

When Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit has come, He will lead us into all truth. To teach the revelation of Jesus Christ from the Old Testament was given to the Apostles. Once they had recorded what the Holy Spirit taught them the canon of the New Testament was closed. The Apostles of Christ were uniquely appointed by Christ, they personally witnessed His resurrection, were trained by the resurrected Christ over 40 days before His ascension, and they were given the ability to perform signs and wonders in connection with their preaching of the Gospel. After the last Apostle died, no one else has qualified for that ministry. Therefore the modern apostles of the NAR are imposters because they don't meet the unique qualifications of the original Apostles. Some try to say they have the qualification through claims of personal "visitation" by Christ, but these are false, because no one will be seeing Christ personally until He comes again.

So, no one will be able to say "thus says the Lord", because God does not speak new revelation directly to people because the canon of Scripture is closed and is not to be added to.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In my opinion, the full revelation of God, His plan of Salvation, the finished work of Christ on the Cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in believers is contained in the written Scriptures.

I disagree.

because the canon of Scripture is closed and is not to be added to.

That's a debateable claim.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

No offence but aren't' you babbling here yourself? You're talking about a man Paul, which said I speak in tongues more than you all.....and you seem to make light of what Paul does by calling it babble, garble and gibberth. Or perhaps you can clarify and acknowledge that Paul considered praying in tongues very beneficial.

Paul is probably using sarcasm here. Affirming more than all others at the same time affirming only five. Reader makes the choice.

 

[ARBITER01]

He doesn't mention anything about anyone getting up and announcing, "Thus says the Lord and here is the latest new revelation." The "thus says the Lord" type prophecies were the thing in the OT prophets, but not so in the New Testament.

Oscarr, you're setting up a standard here that is not stated in scripture.

Normally, when The Holy Spirit gives an interpretation of a tongues message or speaks by the gift of prophesying in the assembly, He will normally say "thus saith The Lord" at the end of it. It is just The Holy Spirit letting people know it was Him speaking and not that person. And you will normally know it to be true because of the edification that happened to your spirit during the message.

New Testament prophecies are for the building up of believers' faith in Christ and what He did for them on the Cross.

That's true, but they are mostly for inspiration. Anytime we had at least 2 tongues messages with interpretations, I would be absolutely inspired to write on subjects I was researching. The amount of revelation on new things related to those subjects was off the charts. It lasted all week till next Sunday.

 

[Bobber]

Paul is probably using sarcasm here. Affirming more than all others at the same time affirming only five. Reader makes the choice.

I see no indication that he was doing what you suggested at all. We say the same type of thing today......Look I engage in A, B or C more than maybe you but we've got to keep it's usage in balance.

eg One could say I'm on my cell phone just as much or more than you but at a family gathering it's off. That's somewhat in a way is what Paul is saying on this other subject and I wouldn't say a sarcasm at all.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I see no indication that he was doing what you suggested at all. We say the same type of thing today......Look I engage in A, B or C more than maybe you but we've got to keep it's usage in balance.

eg One could say I'm on my cell phone just as much or more than you but at a family gathering it's off. That's somewhat in a way is what Paul is saying on this other subject and I wouldn't say a sarcasm at all.

According to St. Paul: Five intelligent words is worth more than 10,000 words of babble. I will stick with St. Paul. Why would anybody want to waste time listening to 10,000 words of babble anyway? Babblers have too much time on their hands and takes away precious time the congregation has from real Bible study FROM THE WRITTEN WORD. Babbling detracts from the written word.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

According to St. Paul: Five intelligent words is worth more than 10,000 words of babble. I will stick with St. Paul. Why would anybody want to waste time listening to 10,000 words of babble anyway? Babblers have too much time on their hands and takes away precious time the congregation has from real Bible study FROM THE WRITTEN WORD. Babbling detracts from the written word.

Gibberish distracts from everything that is comprehensible.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr, you're setting up a standard here that is not stated in scripture.

Normally, when The Holy Spirit gives an interpretation of a tongues message or speaks by the gift of prophesying in the assembly, He will normally say "thus saith The Lord" at the end of it. It is just The Holy Spirit letting people know it was Him speaking and not that person. And you will normally know it to be true because of the edification that happened to your spirit during the message.



That's true, but they are mostly for inspiration. Anytime we had at least 2 tongues messages with interpretations, I would be absolutely inspired to write on subjects I was researching. The amount of revelation on new things related to those subjects was off the charts. It lasted all week till next Sunday.

From my 11 year experience in Pentecostal churches, prophecies given in church services are usually forgotten by the singing of the next hymn. If people where asked at the end of the meeting what the prophecy was about, they wouldn't be able to say. When I was associated with a prophetic ministry, recordings were made of prophecies given (in those days on cassette tape) and a copy given to those who were encouraged by the prophecy so they could read it later and consider its contents. Then the tape was put away and read again in six months or a year to see if any predictive parts of it were still relevant. This is what the OT prophets did. Their prophecies were recorded in print, and that is why we have them as part of the Bible today.

 

[ARBITER01]

From my 11 year experience in Pentecostal churches, prophecies given in church services are usually forgotten by the singing of the next hymn. If people where asked at the end of the meeting what the prophecy was about, they wouldn't be able to say. When I was associated with a prophetic ministry, recordings were made of prophecies given (in those days on cassette tape) and a copy given to those who were encouraged by the prophecy so they could read it later and consider its contents. Then the tape was put away and read again in six months or a year to see if any predictive parts of it were still relevant. This is what the OT prophets did. Their prophecies were recorded in print, and that is why we have them as part of the Bible today.

Not a single person that prophesies in our church ever gives a predictive prophecy.

This is because the gift of prophesying is an inspirational gift not a predictive one. As the text of scripture says,.........

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

We stay within the boundaries of scripture on the gifts.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

This is because the gift of prophesying is an inspirational gift not a predictive one. As the text of scripture says,.........

If the prophesying is not predictive, why call it "prophesying?" Instead you call it "inspirational." Sowing seeds of confusion again. When in doubt, change the definition of prophesying to inspirational....always works.

Having your cake and eating it too.

 

[ARBITER01]

If the prophesying is not predictive, why call it "prophesying?" Instead you call it "inspirational." Sowing seeds of confusion again. When in doubt, change the definition of prophesying to inspirational....always works.

Having your cake and eating it too.

Take your hatred somewhere else, I'm not interested in arguing with you.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is what the OT prophets did. Their prophecies were recorded in print, and that is why we have them as part of the Bible today.

Have a good look at Ezekiel's prophecy about Tyre.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not a single person that prophesies in our church ever gives a predictive prophecy.

This is because the gift of prophesying is an inspirational gift not a predictive one. As the text of scripture says,.........

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

We stay within the boundaries of scripture on the gifts.

Notice that I said "if any parts", etc., which says that it is possible but not probable. However it still remains that most church prophecies drop out of memory five minutes after they are spoken.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If the prophesying is not predictive, why call it "prophesying?" Instead you call it "inspirational." Sowing seeds of confusion again. When in doubt, change the definition of prophesying to inspirational....always works.

Having your cake and eating it too.

The meaning of prophesy is basically utter by divine inspiration. It could be prediction of the future, but not always. Paul's teaching on prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14 involved speaking in order to edify others, making a distinction between tongues and prophecy. He seems to imply that anything said that could be understood by the participants at the meeting in order to build them up, was prophecy to him. Nothing is mentioned about predicting the future. Also, it is not limited to someone standing and speaking forth saying "Thus says the Lord." In my view, one doesn't have to say that, because if it is divinely inspired it should be obvious to the listeners without the speaker having to define as coming directly from the Lord. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to assert that everything I say in church is divinely inspired to the point where I could say, "This is what the Lord says to you." The problem is when some do say, "The Lord has shown me", etc., unwary members may mistakenly believe that the Lord has really spoken through the speaker, when in most cases He hasn't.