Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Laodicean60]

I don't agree with the US government's unconditional backing of Israel in this conflict.

What is your fix for this war? This isn't the only time Hamas attacked Isreal.

 

[ralliann]

What is your fix for this war? This isn't the only time Hamas attacked Isreal.

They have also promised more.

 

[Laodicean60]

They have also promised more.

If I was Israel I'd own Palestine by now. You can only take so much. I don't know how those people live over there with the constant threat of missiles.

 

[Bradskii]

I watched the videos multiple times and did not see "Israeli troops shooting a 17-year-old boy and security forces repeatedly running over the body of a man". Did you post the correct link?

In the left-wing Guardian link provided, the "witness" identifies the sniper as an Israeli soldier. How could he know the identity of a sniper who be definition shoots from concealment at long range? But this report serves the narrative that the Guardian and others push so let's run with it.

Well, if you can't deny it, it's all part of the just war. If you think that you can cast doubt on it it then it's propaganda.

 

[Vanellus]

What is your fix for this war? This isn't the only time Hamas attacked Isreal.

Far more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis than vice versa since 1948.

 

[Vanellus]

South Africa is a failed state that sits on its hands while crime is rampant. It seems to me that they would be better served putting their own house in order before sitting in judgement on other countries.

https://www.statssa.gov.za/?p=16562

Classic genetic fallacy i.e. a false argument. What matters are the facts of the case.

 

[Valletta]

Far more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis than vice versa since 1948.

Yes, as I and others have explained before, the jihadists will surround themselves with women and children just to advance their cause, to kill all Jews and Christians. They hope you and others will use the numbers killed to plead their case. You just don't see them show any remorse for who they kill, their own or others. All for the cause. Israel is geographically close so Israel will come first, but Israel is the little Satan to them and the United States the Big Satan. They have begged the U.S. for monetary assistance for their poor people, and yet virtually all the assistance provided goes into killing "non-believers." It is worthwhile to listen to what they tell their people rather than what their diplomats say, here is a short video of the advisor to the Palestinian president:

Advisor To Palestinian President Mahmoud Habbash In West Bank Friday Sermon: 'Criminal America Is Responsible For Every Single Drop Of Palestinian Blood Shed In Gaza—They Will Pay for This'

Mahmoud Habbash, advisor to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said in a December 29, 2023, Friday sermon, delivered i...

www.memri.org

Yet so many on the American hard left support them. What do you think they would do with American homosexuals and trans and for that matter all of the American women?

 

[ralliann]

Classic genetic fallacy i.e. a false argument. What matters are the facts of the case.

genetic fallacy? The reason more Palestinians are dyeing is because Hamas, uses them as shields, and Israel's superior military and Hamas will not cease fire. Numbers are a false argument.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Classic genetic fallacy i.e. a false argument. What matters are the facts of the case.

Not at all. South Africa is trying to please the Muslim world. It is trying to divert attention away from its own human rights abuses. Any nation could bring an action against Israel. No Muslim country has done so. Funny about that. There are no Palestinians, so genocide cannot be taking place. That is a fact. The case is laughable.

 

[o_mlly]

Well, if you can't deny it, it's all part of the just war. If you think that you can cast doubt on it it then it's propaganda.

I hope you can see the absurdity in your logic.

The evidence offered did not support the claim. It's that simple.

 

[Laodicean60]

Far more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis than vice versa since 1948.

Why has this happened since 1948? Acts of War isn't an even stevens game.

 

[JosephZ]

South Africa is trying to please the Muslim world. It is trying to divert attention away from its own human rights abuses.

Actually, it's the opposite. South Africa often brings attention to its own human rights abuses when it comes to the defense of Palestine. The relationship between the two states goes back at least to the 1970s, and South Africa has stood in solidarity with the Palestinian people for decades. It's not a new movement, and it's not an attempt to please the Muslim world.

Below are some excerpts from a speech given by Nelson Mandela in December 1997.

"But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians". Nelson Mandela 4th December 1997.

We have assembled once again as South Africans, our Palestinian guests and as humanists to express our solidarity with the people of Palestine.

The temptation in our situation is to speak in muffled tones about an issue such as the right of the people of Palestine to a state of their own. We can easily be enticed to read reconciliation and fairness as meaning parity between justice and injustice. Having achieved our own freedom, we can fall into the trap of washing our hands of difficulties that others faces.

Yet we would be less than human if we did so.

It behoves all South Africans, themselves erstwhile beneficiaries of generous international support, to stand up and be counted among those contributing actively to the cause of freedom and justice.

We would be beneath our own reason for existence as government and as a nation, if the resolution of the problems of the Middle East did not feature prominently on our agenda.

...our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians;

We are proud as a government, and as the overwhelming majority of South Africans to be part of an international consensus taking root that the time has come to resolve the problems of Palestine.

...in extending our hands across the miles to the people of Palestine, we do so in the full knowledge that we are part of a humanity that is at one, that the time has come for progress in the implementation of agreements. The majority of the world community; the majority of the people of the Middle East; the majority of Israelis and Palestinians are suing for peace.

We need to do more as government, as the ANC and other parties, as South Africans of all religious and political persuasions to spur on the peace process. All of us should be as vocal in condemning violence and the violation of human rights in this part of the world as we do with regard to other areas.

We must make our voices heard calling for stronger action by world bodies as well as those states that have the power, to act with the same enthusiasm in dealing with this deadlock as they do on other problems in the Middle East.

Yes, all of us need to do more in supporting the struggle of the people of Palestine for self-determination;in supporting the quest for peace, security and friendship in this region.

There are no Palestinians, so genocide cannot be taking place. That is a fact.

Whether or not you choose to recognize Palestinians as a people. A genocide can be taking place in Gaza.

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Some of the criteria by which ethnic groups are identified are ethnic nationality (i.e., country or area of origin, as distinct from citizenship or country of legal nationality), race, colour, language, religion, customs of dress or eating, tribe or various combinations of these characteristics.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Actually, it's the opposite. South Africa often brings attention to its own human rights abuses when it comes to the defense of Palestine. The relationship between the two states goes back at least to the 1970s, and South Africa has stood in solidarity with the Palestinian people for decades. It's not a new movement, and it's not an attempt to please the Muslim world.

The South Africa of the 1970's did not have a relationship with the PLO. They did however have a relationship with Israel who helped South Africa develop their Atomic bombs.

 

[ralliann]

Actually, it's the opposite. South Africa often brings attention to its own human rights abuses when it comes to the defense of Palestine. The relationship between the two states goes back at least to the 1970s, and South Africa has stood in solidarity with the Palestinian people for decades. It's not a new movement, and it's not an attempt to please the Muslim world.

Below are some excerpts from a speech given by Nelson Mandela in December 1997.

"But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians". Nelson Mandela 4th December 1997.

We have assembled once again as South Africans, our Palestinian guests and as humanists to express our solidarity with the people of Palestine.

The temptation in our situation is to speak in muffled tones about an issue such as the right of the people of Palestine to a state of their own. We can easily be enticed to read reconciliation and fairness as meaning parity between justice and injustice. Having achieved our own freedom, we can fall into the trap of washing our hands of difficulties that others faces.

Yet we would be less than human if we did so.

It behoves all South Africans, themselves erstwhile beneficiaries of generous international support, to stand up and be counted among those contributing actively to the cause of freedom and justice.

We would be beneath our own reason for existence as government and as a nation, if the resolution of the problems of the Middle East did not feature prominently on our agenda.

...our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians;

We are proud as a government, and as the overwhelming majority of South Africans to be part of an international consensus taking root that the time has come to resolve the problems of Palestine.

...in extending our hands across the miles to the people of Palestine, we do so in the full knowledge that we are part of a humanity that is at one, that the time has come for progress in the implementation of agreements. The majority of the world community; the majority of the people of the Middle East; the majority of Israelis and Palestinians are suing for peace.

We need to do more as government, as the ANC and other parties, as South Africans of all religious and political persuasions to spur on the peace process. All of us should be as vocal in condemning violence and the violation of human rights in this part of the world as we do with regard to other areas.

We must make our voices heard calling for stronger action by world bodies as well as those states that have the power, to act with the same enthusiasm in dealing with this deadlock as they do on other problems in the Middle East.

Yes, all of us need to do more in supporting the struggle of the people of Palestine for self-determination;in supporting the quest for peace, security and friendship in this region.



Whether or not you choose to recognize Palestinians as a people. A genocide can be taking place in Gaza.

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Some of the criteria by which ethnic groups are identified are ethnic nationality (i.e., country or area of origin, as distinct from citizenship or country of legal nationality), race, colour, language, religion, customs of dress or eating, tribe or various combinations of these characteristics.

Jew's were also called Palestinians. The Arabic Palestinians, are Gazans.

 

[JosephZ]

The South Africa of the 1970's did not have a relationship with the PLO. They did however have a relationship with Israel who helped South Africa develop their Atomic bombs.

This is true, however; it was in the 1970's that grassroots movements made up of anti-apartheid activists first recognized the similarities between their own plight and that of the Palestinians. The solidarity movement grew from there and continued through the 1980s. In the 1990s, after apartheid ended, direct ties to the PLO began through the African National Congress, which is the current ruling political party in South Africa, and solidarity with Palestine became a national policy.

 

[Valletta]

Jew's were also called Palestinians. The Arabic Palestinians, are Gazans.

That is correct. Indeed the very name "Palestinian" came from "Philistine," the name the Romans gave to the Jews who were slaves of the Roman empire. It was Arafat and company who co-opted the slave name of the Jews and took it as their own.

 

[ralliann]

That is correct. Indeed the very name "Palestinian" came from "Philistine," the name the Romans gave to the Jews who were slaves of the Roman empire. It was Arafat and company who co-opted the slave name of the Jews and took it as their own.

Yes, and also the genocide claim. They are Arabic, obviously Israel is not committing Arabic genocide.

 

[ralliann]

This is true, however; it was in the 1970's that grassroots movements made up of anti-apartheid activists first recognized the similarities between their own plight and that of the Palestinians.

What similarities?
Arabs started a war against Israel. Israel miraculously won that war. The Arabs in Palestine, continued the war, while others backed off.

 

[rjs330]

I think we know some, but maybe not all.

That may be true, but no one has proven it yet. Even if it were true it was the Palestinians that carried out the attacks. It's was Hamas that did it.

 

[rjs330]

Well, if you can't deny it, it's all part of the just war. If you think that you can cast doubt on it it then it's propaganda.

That beliefs the fact there is still no evidence for the claims. Making unsubstantiated claims like this is the very definition of propaganda.