Is believing/faith a work ?

[Brightfame52]

@AbbaLove

You guys have a distorted definition of "work" as applying only to man and not to the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why don't you start another thread with the title "Is believing /faith an action?" or "Is believing/faith a work/action of the Holy Spirit?"

So is believing an act of the person believing or the Holy Spirit believing ?

 

[AbbaLove]

Edit the title of your present thread or start another thread that takes into account "salvation". Perhaps what you meant to post is ...

Does believing faith (even lukewarm faith) ensure one's salvation if it's devoid of any actions/works influenced by the guidance/leading of the Holy Spirit?

Existing title is open to interruption/debate dependng o whether a Christian favors: Cessationism or Continuationism ...
Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia.

My understanding of His Holy Living Word (John 1:1-3, 14)is that believing'faith (salvation) is evdent by the work/action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a born again Believer (Titus 3:5).

In so many words (Yes/No) do you believe a Christians' believing/faith (salvation) is dependant on the wondering working power of the Holy Spirit in the life of a new creation in Christ Jesus (Titus 3:5)

 

[Brightfame52]

Edit the title of your present thread or start another thread that takes into account "salvation". Perhaps what you meant to post is ...

Does believing faith (even lukewarm faith) ensure one's salvation if it's devoid of any actions/works influenced by the guidance/leading of the Holy Spirit?

Existing title is open to interruption/debate dependng o whether a Christian favors: Cessationism or Continuationism ...
Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia.

My understanding of His Holy Living Word (John 1:1-3, 14)is that believing'faith (salvation) is evdent by the work/action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a born again Believer (Titus 3:5).

In so many words (Yes/No) do you believe a Christians' believing/faith (salvation) is dependant on the wondering working power of the Holy Spirit in the life of a new creation in Christ Jesus (Titus 3:5)

So is believing an act of the person believing or the Holy Spirit believing ?

 

[Halbhh]

If you make salvation conditioned on anything you do, I mean anything done by you, its works religion.

Sure, but we are not saved by our ideas (which would be our own work!), like this one --> "If you make salvation conditioned on anything you do, I mean anything done by you, its works religion" (just one of many ideas people have)

Our ideas don't save us (if they did, then our salvation would be our own doing)

If someone thought that idea of their own would cause them to be saved, that would be the very mistake your idea is meant to warn against !

Such doctrines people have or state won't save. Some will perish thinking their doctrinal ideas save them...(!)...

Christ said what saves us and whether or not we will make it into heaven. (so it's not up to you or me at all!)

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

-- Christ Jesus, our Savior

So, He tells us whether we will make it.

All we can do is accept this Truth.

Imagine I have some various good theory about free will and predestination. Call it theory A.1. Well, that's fine, but it won't save anyone. What we think and say will not save. Only God has the authority to state what will save, and we can only listen and believe and accept His Words.

(So, if you want to say good things, quote bible verses. )

 

[Brightfame52]

Sure, but we are not saved by our ideas (which would be our own work!), like this one --> "If you make salvation conditioned on anything you do, I mean anything done by you, its works religion" (just one of many ideas people have)

Our ideas don't save us (if they did, then our salvation would be our own doing)

If someone thought that idea of their own would cause them to be saved, that would be the very mistake your idea is meant to warn against !

Such doctrines people have or state won't save. Some will perish thinking their doctrinal ideas save them...(!)...

Christ said what saves us and whether or not we will make it into heaven. (so it's not up to you or me at all!)

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

-- Christ Jesus, our Savior

So, He tells us whether we will make it.

All we can do is accept this Truth.

Imagine I have some various good theory about free will and predestination. Call it theory A.1. Well, that's fine, but it won't save anyone. What we think and say will not save. Only God has the authority to state what will save, and we can only listen and believe and accept His Words.

(So, if you want to say good things, quote bible verses. )

Again, if you condition your salvation on anything you do, its works salvation condemned by the Blood of Christ.

 

[Halbhh]

Again, if you condition your salvation on anything you do, its works salvation condemned by the Blood of Christ.

John 10:27 - The Unbelief of the Jews

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me.

biblehub.com

 

[Brightfame52]

John 10:27 - The Unbelief of the Jews

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me.

biblehub.com

I have no problem with Jn 10:27. Now nevertheless, if you condition salvation on anything yon do, forget about Salvation by Grace through Faith !

 

[Mark Quayle]

Where did i or the Apostle James use the word "salvation" in my posts or in James 2:17-26? Please reread my previous posts as well as James 2:17-26..

The Title of this thread "Is believing/faith a work ?" However one could rightly contend that it's definitely a "work/action" of the Holy Spirit?

Surely you aren't suggessting that "believing/faith" is solely the 'work' of religious man or are you? Your problem is that you define "work" as an action of a religious man devoid of the "working" of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

You guys have a distorted definition of "work" as applying only to man and not to the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why don't you start another thread with the title "Is believing /faith an action?" or "Is believing/faith a work of the Holy Spirit?"

I was not arguing against James. My point was that James was not talking about Salvation. Period. You, however, said that @Brightfame52 had 3 times ignored what James said, thus either implying that James disagreed with Brightfame, or something else that both Brightfame and I don't get, that James said, or that you have misunderstood concerning what James said. It is not a matter of ignoring.

The OP is not looking to find out if the faith generated by the Holy Spirit is a work of the Spirit. That goes without saying, if salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit. I take the OP to be dealing with the notion that some have, that if salvific faith is generated by the person, prior to regeneration, that it is not a work.

 

[John Mullally]

The OP is not looking to find out if the faith generated by the Holy Spirit is a work of the Spirit. That goes without saying, if salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit. I take the OP to be dealing with the notion that some have, that if salvific faith is generated by the person, prior to regeneration, that it is not a work.

Our Faith not generated by the Holy Spirit. In Galatians 3:2, Paul says that the Holy Spirit is received by the hearing with faith, and this is confirmed in Ephesians 1:13. This contradicts the notion that faith is generated by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

​

In addition, scriptures indicated the Holy Spirit as being a helper, comforter, and advocate. It also says he can be resisted, grieved, and quenched, so He is not making anyone do anything. There is no scripture that says He generates faith.

In Jesus earthly healing ministry, Jesus commended people for their faith. Jesus even linked their healing to their faith (Matthew 9:29). If that faith was generated by the Holy Spirit, it would only be accurate to commend the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Our Faith not generated by the Holy Spirit. In Galatians 3:2, Paul says that the Holy Spirit is received by the hearing with faith, and this is confirmed in Ephesians 1:13. This contradicts the notion that faith is generated by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

​

That's how YOU read it. It doesn't even begin to say so. Good luck with your endeavors, but they will not save you.

In addition, scriptures indicated the Holy Spirit as being a helper, comforter, and advocate. It also says he can be resisted, grieved, and quenched, so He is not making anyone do anything. There is no scripture that says He generates faith.

Who said he is making anyone do anything? Who said he cannot be resisted, grieved and quenched?

In Jesus earthly healing ministry, Jesus commended people for their faith. Jesus even linked their healing to their faith (Matthew 9:29). If that faith was generated by the Holy Spirit, it would only be accurate to commend the Holy Spirit.

Yes, so? How is salvific faith not generated by the Holy Spirit? It is ours because it is done in us. You seem to think by effort and will you can force yourself into unity with God, when it is already done in those who are born again. We do so because it is so.

 

[John Mullally]

The OP is not looking to find out if the faith generated by the Holy Spirit is a work of the Spirit. That goes without saying, if salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit. I take the OP to be dealing with the notion that some have, that if salvific faith is generated by the person, prior to regeneration, that it is not a work.

Our Faith not generated by the Holy Spirit. In Galatians 3:2, Paul says that the Holy Spirit is received by the hearing with faith, and this is confirmed in Ephesians 1:13. This contradicts the notion that faith is generated by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

That's how YOU read it. It doesn't even begin to say so. Good luck with your endeavors, but they will not save you.

If faith is generated by the Holy Spirit (as you and the OP assert), it makes no sense for the Bible to say that the Holy Spirit is received by faith. You have the cart before the horse. Its not just how I read it - it is logical.

In addition, scriptures indicated the Holy Spirit as being a helper, comforter, and advocate. It also says he can be resisted, grieved, and quenched, so He is not making anyone do anything. There is no scripture that says He generates faith.

Who said he is making anyone do anything? Who said he cannot be resisted, grieved and quenched?

I say that because Calvinists teach that God does some things that cannot be resisted (like forcibly generating faith in His favorite people). Thus, Calvinists teach that God creates “yes-men” with an “Irresistible Grace”, presumably because that is the only way to get people to love Him. Use of such means would be embarrassing, shameful, unethical, immoral, hardly glorious and frankly very insulting to God. At best, it would be analogous to brainwashing and at worst, comparable to using a date-rape drug.

In Jesus earthly healing ministry, Jesus commended people for their faith. Jesus even linked their healing to their faith (Matthew 9:29). If that faith was generated by the Holy Spirit, it would only be accurate to commend the Holy Spirit.

Yes, so? How is salvific faith not generated by the Holy Spirit?

I believe that faith for healing is identical in nature to faith for salvation - it involves trusting God's promises - especially Christ's words. Jesus's commending people for their faith to be healed makes no sense if that faith was generated by the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 14:9, Paul speaks of a man having faith to be healed. If that was Holy Spirit supplied faith, it would be far more accurate for Paul to simply say that God wanted to heal that man.

The term "salvific faith" is not in the Bible. Is the nature of faith to be healed different from "salvific faith"? if so please explain. Otherwise, please explain why Jesus commends people for faith which is generated by the Holy Spirit.

It is ours because it is done in us. You seem to think by effort and will you can force yourself into unity with God, when it is already done in those who are born again. We do so because it is so.

God is love and He is like the Good Samaritan to all people. God wants to save everyone - that is why He is the savior of all people. He cannot be the savior of those He does not intend to save. In this passage "especially" is of significance as scripture teaches only believers are saved. You stand against God's word in maligning those responding to God's gracious offer (i.e. the Gospel) as forcing ourselves onto God.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

The purpose of the Gospel is to lead people to salvation (Romans 1:16). In preaching the Gospel in Acts 2, Peter promises salvation (which is part of remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

 

[Brightfame52]

@John Mullally

The purpose of the Gospel is to lead people to salvation (Romans 1:16).

Thats wrong, the Gospel is the Good News to them already saved, thats why its called the Gospel of your Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Those for whom Christ died and redeemed and the Spirit regenerated, they are sent the Gospel of their Salvation, the good news about it.

 

[Halbhh]

I have no problem with Jn 10:27. Now nevertheless, if you condition salvation on anything yon do, forget about Salvation by Grace through Faith !

When we obey Christ and keep His commandments, for the great majority, this is not because we think or belief or hope we are in any way earning our salvation. Though He does say we must keep His commands to be able to endure over time. (Matthew 7:24-27, John 15:1-17)

We will keep His commands though because we love Him. (that's why we do it)

This isn't a guess, but simply what we can humbly learn and accept:

John 14:23 - Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

Jesus replied, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

biblehub.com

I was asking you before: do you realize where all these words in the quotes come from? They are literally from God.

 

[John Mullally]

The purpose of the Gospel is to lead people to salvation (Romans 1:16). In preaching the Gospel in Acts 2, Peter promises salvation (which is part of remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized.

Thats wrong, the Gospel is the Good News to them already saved, thats why its called the Gospel of your Salvation

The Gospel brings salvation to those who believe it. Its not a dog-whistle to the presumptuous. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.​

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Per Ephesians 1:1, the book of Ephesians is addressed to the "faithful in Christ". In Ephesians 1:13, Paul is telling these "faithful in Christ" that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after hearing and believing the Gospel (AKA the word of truth and the gospel of your salvation).

Those for whom Christ died and redeemed and the Spirit regenerated, they are sent the Gospel of their Salvation, the good news about it.

That is not in the Bible. Jesus commands the Gospel to be preached everywhere to everyone.

 

[Brightfame52]

When we obey Christ and keep His commandments, for the great majority, this is not because we think or belief or hope we are in any way earning our salvation. Though He does say we must keep His commands to be able to endure over time. (Matthew 7:24-27, John 15:1-17)

We will keep His commands though because we love Him. (that's why we do it)

This isn't a guess, but simply what we can humbly learn and accept:

John 14:23 - Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

Jesus replied, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

biblehub.com

I was asking you before: do you realize where all these words in the quotes come from? They are literally from God.

If we condition our salvation on anything we do, its salvation by works, a denial of Grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Gospel brings salvation to those who believe it. Its not a dog-whistle to the presumptuous.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.​

Per Ephesians 1:1, the book of Ephesians is addressed to the "faithful in Christ". In Ephesians 1:13, Paul is telling these "faithful in Christ" that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after hearing and believing the Gospel (AKA the word of truth and the gospel of your salvation).

That is not in the Bible. Jesus commands the Gospel to be preached everywhere.

The Gospel is good news to the already saved. If a person is lost its foolishness and leaves them in unbelief 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[Halbhh]

If we condition our salvation on anything we do, its salvation by works, a denial of Grace.

To repeat that to me for the 10th time after I repeatedly already agreed with it is abusive, after I already said it could become abusive in clear wording to previously (so that you knew it could become an offense against a brother or sister).

So, this time you are doing a clear wrong, breaking Matthew 7:12.

So, now it's become something you need to repent of.... Follow the instructions of Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1:8-10 - New International Version (and generally, you might need to begin doing that in other ways with other people also, if you didn't realize it's required -- Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:23-24 - New International Version)

 

[John Mullally]

The Gospel is good news to the already saved. If a person is lost its foolishness and leaves them in unbelief 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Again you don't address my arguments. These forums are supposed to be a dialog.

That's not what 1 Corinthians 1:18 is saying. The power of the Gospel is in the saving, not in notifying the saved.

If your brand of Calvinism is true, then Romans 1:16 is not, because the power of God towards salvation is conditioned on decrees made by God in eternity past.

 

[Brightfame52]

To repeat that to me for the 10th time after I repeatedly already agreed with it is abusive, after I already said it could become abusive in clear wording to previously (so that you knew it could become an offense against a brother or sister).

So, this time you are doing a clear wrong, breaking Matthew 7:12.

So, now it's become something you need to repent of.... Follow the instructions of Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1:8-10 - New International Version (and generally, you might need to begin doing that in other ways with other people also, if you didn't realize it's required -- Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:23-24 - New International Version)

You repeating !

 

[Brightfame52]

Again you don't address my arguments. These forums are supposed to be a dialog.

That's not what 1 Corinthians 1:18 is saying. The power of the Gospel is in the saving, not in notifying the saved.

If your brand of Calvinism is true, then Romans 1:16 is not, because the power of God towards salvation is conditioned on decrees made by God in eternity past.

Im addressing it with this, the Gospel is a word of Salvation to the saved, it announces to them their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Salvation here is in the Genitive case , and its preceded by the genitive personal pronoun YOUR indicating possession of Salvation, and its after that they believe.