Is believing/faith a work ?

[Brightfame52]

Believe what you like (1 Timothy 4:1), but what you say positions you as a fatalist - and places squarely you in the same camp as Islam (Islam and Calvinism: An Uncomfortable Comparison – Grace Evangelical Society) and many from pagan stoic religions that confronted early Christianity.

fatalism​

noun​

fa·tal·ism ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm​

​

: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them​

also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine fatalism that regards social problems as simply inevitable​

Peter, not a fatalist like yourself, promises you can do something to be saved. When earnestly asked "What shall we do?", Peter promises salvation (as that accompanies the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized in Acts 2:38. Acts 2:39 says that that offer extends to today. In addition, the Lord's call (in Acts 2;39) goes out to all because God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). God's call is not a dog whistle intended only to particular ones selected to respond- it goes out to all. God is not duplicitous like a trickster satanic character commanding some to do that which He does not permit them to do. God so loved the world, not just those who went on to believe. God is love (1 John 4:8 and 1 Corinthians 13 tells us what love is). Love believes the best of others. Accordingly, our God of love does not predestine any to eternal torment!

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.​

God, wants everyone to freely respond to the Gospel, but many sadly don't (as explained in John 3;19-20) and that is not a negative reflection on God.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

​

Based upon history, I expect you will object by vacuously repeating yourself instead of answering objections You behave just like those in Acts 19:28.

If you make salvation conditioned on anything you do, I mean anything done by you, its works religion.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you don't believe in anything for your salvation?

I discuss what I believe here:

Reconciled to God while enemies !

Rom 5:10 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their...

www.christianforums.com

But in the meantime, if you, me or anyone else conditions salvation on anything they DO its based upon works, which is contrary to Grace Salvation, do you understand ?

 

[Gr8Grace]

I discuss what I believe here:

Reconciled to God while enemies !

Rom 5:10 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their...

www.christianforums.com

But in the meantime, if you, me or anyone else conditions salvation on anything they DO its based upon works, which is contrary to Grace Salvation, do you understand ?

So you don't believe or trust in Christ for salvation?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Brightfame52 said:
Again

if you condition salvation on your faith, it becomes works, thats apostacy.

Your issue is with the Holy Spirit in Eph 2:8-9.

That's above my paygrade.

@Clare73 , I think you and @Brightfame52 are talking past each other here. I think you would agree with him, as to what he means, though not how he says it. He has explained, (not to you, but to others), that he is talking about faith as a human product, a human effort. Salvific faith is already salvific belief, not something by which we are enabled to negotiate for our salvation, nor even something by which God considers us having attained worthiness of salvation, nor even something by which we have completed the salvation equation, to which "God responds as promised."

 

[Mark Quayle]

So you don't believe or trust in Christ for salvation?

Did you read what he linked to? He was pretty clear.

But as to your way of putting that, I want to say something here. Prepositions are funny things. You might say believe in "Christ for salvation", and even the Bible is vague in places (if one takes a phrase or passage out-of-context). I'm not going to say I can read your mind, but I will say that the person trying to answer your question is left with no alternative but to try to read your mind, or to simply bypass whatever else you might have meant to go with whatever they might mean if they were to say the same thing.

For maybe most believers/Christians, there phrase comes too easily and glibly, and they don't realize how many ways it can be taken.

The Bible says, "...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Does that mean, as read without the context, "confession results in salvation"?

So, do you mean, "...believe in Christ so that you will be saved?" Or do you mean, "...do you suppose that faith is not how one is saved?" Or what?

When you are specific, it is not as likely people will read what you say as antagonism or as a trap, or as trolling. Hopefully you are here to discuss and not to condemn.

 

[Mark Quayle]

When the "works" done are the result of the prompting / unction / anointing of the Holy Spirit then those "works" are justified. That's the "works" James is referring to ...

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:17-26)​

​

Those that don't accept these inspired NT words of James are likely more into Seeker-Sensitive (easy peasy) theology. A false theology that doesn't believe the nine supernatural Gifts of the Holy Soirit are still operative today as "Good Works" by Faithful Born Again Followers Of Christ Jesus.​

Salvific faith is the same faith, (that is, from the same source—the Spirit of God), as the faith that produces works. That does not mean that we can produce salvific faith. It is ours because it is done in us.

The point in contention is that while Eph 2 specifically says that Salvation (and, therefore, logically grammatically, the faith and grace also), it does not say that Sanctification is by grace alone, nor does any other scripture, to my knowledge. James is not talking about Salvation here.

 

[AbbaLove]

But in the meantime, if you, me or anyone else conditions salvation on anything they DO its based upon works, which is contrary to Grace Salvation, do you understand ?

Three times now you've purposedly ignored NT scripture recorded by the Apostle James ...

2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.​

​

2:20-22 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.​

​

2:23-24 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.​

​

2:25-26 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

Think of Rahab's behavior as "righteous action" (better translation). Get off your "works" interpretation (James 2:17-26) as if all "works" are done only to bolster man's [religious] self-importance.

James is not referring to "works" based on misguided religious "works/laws" done to bolster (fortify) ones self-esteem and religious importance (e.g. scribes and Pharisees).

You are giving "works" (James 2:17-26) a mistaken connotation. Instead of religious laws ("works") think of "inspired actions" by the "working" unction of His Holy Spirit. For example the following "actions" of the three servants determined their reward(s).

The "Parable of the Talents", in Matthew 25:14–30 tells of a master who was leaving his house to travel, and, before leaving, entrusted his property to his servants. According to the abilities of each man, one servant received five talents, the second had received two, and the third received only one.​

Does not God expect us to employ our God-Given gifts in His service? It is not acceptable merely to put those gifts on a closet shelf and ignore them as if faith alone is sufficient without any inspired actions (righteous works). What will be our reward(s) if we have no "actions" that support our faith? Is our faith hot or luke warm ?

 

[GenemZ]

if you make salvation conditioned on anything you do, I mean anything done by you, its works religion.

You have been sold on that because those who claim it can not distinguish between what was called "works" in Jesus day.
Some of them are also sold on Calvinism and that gets bizarre and I do not want to go there.

What was works?

Rabbis and pharisees would create their own lists of things to do to gain eternal life. That system was referred to as "works."
That is why we are told we are not saved by "works." And, its why people were always asking rabbit Jesus what must they do
to inherit eternal life. They were 'works oriented.' Not faith by grace oriented.

The disciples who were conditioned to think in terms of doing works for salvation asked Jesus what if any work could they do?
That is when He told them the One Work (not works) that God accepts is to believe on the Son.

John 6:28-29

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

read what it says.... your argument is not with me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Three times now you've purposedly ignored NT scripture recorded by the Apostle James ...

2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.​

​

2:20-22 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.​

​

2:23-24 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.​

​

2:25-26 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

Think of Rahab's behavior as "righteous action" (better translation). Get off your "works" interpretation (James 2:17-26) as if all "works" are done only to bolster man's [religious] self-importance.

James is not referring to "works" based on misguided religious "works/laws" done to bolster (fortify) ones self-esteem and religious importance (e.g. scribes and Pharisees).

You are giving "works" (James 2:17-26) a mistaken connotation. Instead of religious laws ("works") think of "inspired actions" by the "working" unction of His Holy Spirit. For example the following "actions" of the three servants determined their reward(s).

The "Parable of the Talents", in Matthew 25:14–30 tells of a master who was leaving his house to travel, and, before leaving, entrusted his property to his servants. According to the abilities of each man, one servant received five talents, the second had received two, and the third received only one.​

Does not God expect us to employ our God-Given gifts in His service? It is not acceptable merely to put those gifts on a closet shelf and ignore them as if faith alone is sufficient without any inspired actions (righteous works). What will be our reward(s) if we have no "actions" that support our faith? Is our faith hot or luke warm ?

James isn't talking about salvation, unless in the sense that the salvation (the faith, more to the point) produces works.

Faith IS believing; it is done to us, in us, by the Spirit of God, and not by the will of man. It produces the yielding of the will, and is not a product of our own decision, nor granted to us somehow in response to our 'accepting Christ', whatever that means.

 

[Brightfame52]

Three times now you've purposedly ignored NT scripture recorded by the Apostle James ...

2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.​

​

2:20-22 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.​

​

2:23-24 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.​

​

2:25-26 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

Think of Rahab's behavior as "righteous action" (better translation). Get off your "works" interpretation (James 2:17-26) as if all "works" are done only to bolster man's [religious] self-importance.

James is not referring to "works" based on misguided religious "works/laws" done to bolster (fortify) ones self-esteem and religious importance (e.g. scribes and Pharisees).

You are giving "works" (James 2:17-26) a mistaken connotation. Instead of religious laws ("works") think of "inspired actions" by the "working" unction of His Holy Spirit. For example the following "actions" of the three servants determined their reward(s).

The "Parable of the Talents", in Matthew 25:14–30 tells of a master who was leaving his house to travel, and, before leaving, entrusted his property to his servants. According to the abilities of each man, one servant received five talents, the second had received two, and the third received only one.​

Does not God expect us to employ our God-Given gifts in His service? It is not acceptable merely to put those gifts on a closet shelf and ignore them as if faith alone is sufficient without any inspired actions (righteous works). What will be our reward(s) if we have no "actions" that support our faith? Is our faith hot or luke warm ?

if you, me or anyone else conditions salvation on anything they DO its based upon works, which is contrary to Grace Salvation, do you understand ?

 

[Clare73]

Again

if you condition salvation on your faith, it becomes works, thats apostacy.

See post #1287.

 

[Clare73]

Brightfame52 said:
Again

if you condition salvation on your faith, it becomes works, thats apostacy.

And who made that silly rule?

And if that is true, the it is also true that if you condition salvation on Jesus' death on the cross (Ro 3:25), that is also apostasy, it likewise being clearly stated in the word of God (Eph 2:8-9).

@Clare73 , I think you and @Brightfame52 are talking past each other here. I think you would agree with him, as to what he means, though not how he says it. He has explained, (not to you, but to others), that he is talking about faith as a human product, a human effort. Salvific faith is already salvific belief, not something by which we are enabled to negotiate for our salvation, nor even something by which God considers us having attained worthiness of salvation, nor even something by which we have completed the salvation equation, to which "God responds as promised."

Does he not know that there is no such thing as saving faith being a human product of human effort?
Is he smarter than God here that he must create a false saving "faith" to shoot down?
Why even speak in terms of "works" regarding saving faith?
Why the need to delegitimize Eph 2:8-9?

Does he not know that Biblically faith is not a work/performance, yet which concept he seems determined to link to salvation?
Why is he trying to introduce confusion into the word of God with his "faith is works" instead of agreeing with Biblical text (Eph 2:8-9)?
Why the need to fiddle with "saved by grace through faith" in Eph 2:8-9?
What is the origin of this foolish nonsense?

Is he trying to create a Biblical problem that does not exist regarding saving faith?
Why all this contra-Biblical nonsense regarding the exceeding clarity of the necessity of saving faith to salvation in Eph 2:8-9?
Is he trying to legitimize non-Biblical language, or to de-legitimize Biblical language; i.e., "salvation is. . .through faith" (Eph 2:8-9)?
Why the resistance and denial of the necessity of faith to salvation?
Just what does he hope to improve on from the Holy Spirit?
Why the need to create obfuscation where there is none?

It all smacks of self-importance and the need to be smarter than God by improving on his clear word for the sake of that self-importance.

And if his issue is natural human faith vs. Holy Spirit saving faith, then just say so without trying to delegitimize Eph 2:8-9.

Also. . .the word is apostasy, not apostacy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And who made that silly rule?

And if that is true, the it is also true that if you condition salvation on Jesus' death on the cross (Ro 3:25), that is also apostasy, it likewise being clearly stated in the word of God (Eph 2:8-9).

Does he not know that there is no such thing as saving faith being a human product of human effort?
Is he smarter than God here that he must create a false saving "faith" to shoot down?
Why even speak in terms of "works" regarding saving faith?
Why the need to delegitimize Eph 2:8-9?

@Brightfame52 , if there is anything I say here that is not representing you correctly, please advise.

Clare, that is Brightfame's very point, I think. If the faith is of human origin, it is work and not saving faith. God doesn't grant salvation as a result of seeing the faith we proffer. God doesn't condition salvation on faith we present to him for assessment. The salvation is THROUGH the faith, not through other means as a result of our producing some level of faith.

Does he not know that Biblically faith is not a work/performance, yet which concept he seems determined to link to salvation?

He is linking it only to the mind of those whom you, I and he oppose. He is showing what they are claiming, and showing it to be false. It is NOT salvific faith he is talking about, though he is saying that some suppose it to be so.

Why is he trying to introduce confusion into the word of God with his "faith is works" instead of agreeing with Biblical text (Eph 2:8-9)?
Why the need to fiddle with "saved by grace through faith" in Eph 2:8-9?
What is the origin of this foolish nonsense?

Faith is works, if it is by our effort, no? But salvific faith is not by our effort; therefore, if they claim it is of our effort, they describe a false faith. —At least, that is how I read his argument.

Is he trying to create a Biblical problem that does not exist regarding saving faith?

No. He's trying to demonstrate what is wrong with the mentality of the self-determinist, who claims faith can be had apart from regeneration.

Why all this contra-Biblical nonsense regarding the exceeding clarity of the necessity of saving faith to salvation in Eph 2:8-9?
Is he trying to legitimize non-Biblical language, or to de-legitimize Biblical language; i.e., "salvation is. . .through faith" (Eph 2:8-9)?
Why the resistance and denial of the necessity of faith to salvation?

He isn't denying it! He agrees. His argument is exactly that! THEREFORE, if the faith is of human origin, it is works, and thus not salvific faith at all.

Just what does he hope to improve on from the Holy Spirit?
Why the need to create obfuscation where there is none?

I don't think he meant to do that at all.

It all smacks of self-importance and the need to be smarter than God by improving on his clear word for the sake of that self-importance.

And if his issue is natural human faith vs. Holy Spirit saving faith, then just say so without trying to delegitimize Eph 2:8-9.

He's not trying to delegitimize any Scripture, and certainly not Eph 2, as far as I can tell. But yes, that is the issue. He is saying, (in effect), that those who claim the faith comes before the regeneration are delegitimizing Eph 2.

Also. . .the word is apostasy, not apostacy.

Lol, I'm guessing he will take note.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Did you read what he linked to? He was pretty clear.

But as to your way of putting that, I want to say something here. Prepositions are funny things. You might say believe in "Christ for salvation", and even the Bible is vague in places (if one takes a phrase or passage out-of-context). I'm not going to say I can read your mind, but I will say that the person trying to answer your question is left with no alternative but to try to read your mind, or to simply bypass whatever else you might have meant to go with whatever they might mean if they were to say the same thing.

For maybe most believers/Christians, there phrase comes too easily and glibly, and they don't realize how many ways it can be taken.

The Bible says, "...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Does that mean, as read without the context, "confession results in salvation"?

So, do you mean, "...believe in Christ so that you will be saved?" Or do you mean, "...do you suppose that faith is not how one is saved?" Or what?

When you are specific, it is not as likely people will read what you say as antagonism or as a trap, or as trolling. Hopefully you are here to discuss and not to condemn.

I didn't ask you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I didn't ask you.

"Took the dog by the ears", did I? (Prov. 26:17)

It becomes my business if a poster treats one of my brothers unfairly or with disrespect. It is also my business if a poster misrepresents the truth. If one posts publicly, the public has a right to ask for clarity.

 

[Clare73]

@Brightfame52 , if there is anything I say here that is not representing you correctly, please advise.

Clare, that is Brightfame's very point, I think. If the faith is of human origin, it is work and not saving faith. God doesn't grant salvation as a result of seeing the faith we proffer. God doesn't condition salvation on faith we present to him for assessment. The salvation is THROUGH the faith, not through other means as a result of our producing some level of faith.

He is linking it only to the mind of those whom you, I and he oppose. He is showing what they are claiming, and showing it to be false. It is NOT salvific faith he is talking about, though he is saying that some suppose it to be so.


Faith is works, if it is by our effort, no? But salvific faith is not by our effort; therefore, if they claim it is of our effort, they describe a false faith. —At least, that is how I read his argument.

No. He's trying to demonstrate what is wrong with the mentality of the self-determinist, who claims faith can be had apart from regeneration.

He isn't denying it! He agrees. His argument is exactly that! THEREFORE, if the faith is of human origin, it is works, and thus not salvific faith at all.

I don't think he meant to do that at all.

He's not trying to delegitimize any Scripture, and certainly not Eph 2, as far as I can tell. But yes, that is the issue. He is saying, (in effect), that those who claim the faith comes before the regeneration are delegitimizing Eph 2.

Lol, I'm guessing he will take note.

Thanks.

Faith, saving or otherwise, is not a work (performance), it is a disposition.
The disposition does not save if it is not by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thanks.

Faith, saving or otherwise, is not a work (performance), it is a disposition.
The disposition does not save if it is not by the Holy Spirit.

Amen that!

 

[AbbaLove]

if you, me or anyone else conditions salvation on anything they DO its based upon works, which is contrary to Grace Salvation, do you understand ?

Apparently you never read my last post (#1,307) or James 2:17-26.

Your problem seemss to be that you reject NT scripture in order to satisfy your own seeker sensitive theology ... that "actions" as guided by His Holy Spirit are not needed to accompany one's faith. You are not alone as there of millions of so-called christians that are cessationists (don't believe the 9 supernatural Gifts are still active actions or "works of the Holy Spirit" today (i.e. seeker-sensitive christians are cessationists ).

Your definition of "works" as pertaining to only the 613 laws or the Ten Commandments is a misinterpretation of James 2:17-26.

Faith that isn't accompanied with "actions" as guided by the leading of the Holy Spirit is a lukewarm faith,
or as recorded in James is dead. ​

 

[Brightfame52]

Apparently you never read my last post (#1,307) or James 2:17-26.

Your problem seemss to be that you reject NT scripture in order to satisfy your own seeker sensitive theology ... that "actions" as guided by His Holy Spirit are not needed to accompany one's faith. You are not alone as there of millions of so-called christians that are cessationists (don't believe the 9 supernatural Gifts are still active actions or "works of the Holy Spirit" today (i.e. seeker-sensitive christians are cessationists ).

Your definition of "works" as pertaining to only the 613 laws or the Ten Commandments is a misinterpretation of James 2:17-26.

Faith that isn't accompanied with "actions" as guided by the leading of the Holy Spirit is a lukewarm faith,
or as recorded in James is dead. ​

Nothing changes, if you condition your salvation on anything you do, its works and a departure from the faith of the Gospel.

 

[AbbaLove]

James isn't talking about salvation, unless in the sense that the salvation (the faith, more to the point) produces works.

Faith IS believing; it is done to us, in us, by the Spirit of God, and not by the will of man. It produces the yielding of the will, and is not a product of our own decision, nor granted to us somehow in response to our 'accepting Christ', whatever that means.

Where did i or the Apostle James use the word "salvation" in my posts or in James 2:17-26? Please reread my previous posts as well as James 2:17-26..

The Title of this thread "Is believing/faith a work ?" However one could rightly contend that it's definitely a "work/action" of the Holy Spirit?

Surely you aren't suggessting that "believing/faith" is solely the 'work' of religious man or are you? Your problem is that you define "work" as an action of a religious man devoid of the "working" of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

You guys have a distorted definition of "work" as applying only to man and not to the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why don't you start another thread with the title "Is believing /faith an action?" or "Is believing/faith a work of the Holy Spirit?"