The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role as opposed to the scripture order of God

[PloverWing]

I have written such a letter. \ And I do believe I have also spoken in this post forum about the benefits of God's order in homes and body ministry.

Would you like to post the letter here, or an excerpt from it?

 

[MForbes]

He gave a tenth (tithe) as an act of worship and it predates the law

He gave a tenth of his war spoils to the King of Salem one time……when else did he “tithe”?

…..He didn’t.

Many pastors use this as just one of the reasons church members should give them a tenth of their income.

 

[Always in His Presence]

He gave a tenth of his war spoils to the King of Salem one time……when else did he “tithe”?

…..He didn’t.

Many pastors use this as just one of the reasons church members should give them a tenth of their income.

Like I said. It was an act of worship. If a person does not want to worship God with their finances. It is no skin off my nose.

 

[LoveofTruth]

(I learned this while paying for my degree)

Read the verses in context

Eph 4: 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, ​

​

And what is the reason for these gifts?​

​

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.​

​

Since we are targeting Pastors - let's look at the word Paul used

Pastor is translated from the Greek - poimen "a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks" (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors," Eph 4:11. "Pastors" guide as well as feed the flock; cp. Act 20:28, which, with ver. 17, indicates that this was the service committed to elders (overseers or bishops); so also in 1Pe 5:1, 2, "tend the flock... exercising the oversight," RV; this involves tender care and vigilant superintendence.

It literally means a shepherd and the same Greek word is found a number of times in the NT

Mat 9:36​

But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd.​

​

Mar 6:34​

And Jesus, when He came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So He began to teach them many things.​

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Jhn 10:11​

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.​

The Bible also directly speaks about Bishops (overseers), 1 Timothy 3:1-7

Who is the Bishop in the home church?


As for your position on ministers receiving wages:

1 Tim 5:1717 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.​

​

Classic errors to justify things. I will have to address them later busy right now.

But you didn’t highlight Ephesians 4:16 interestingly. That is the part I was sharing

 

[LoveofTruth]

pbbbllllt - you cannot hide behind scripture - I am not scorning you nor rebuking you. I am pointing out the weakness of what you are saying -

I don't believe you are correct.

You said I was fault finding and a negative message. That’s why I gave you those verses.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Classic errors to justify things. I will have to address them later busy right now.

But you didn’t highlight Ephesians 4:16 interestingly. That is the part I was sharing

I quoted it plain as day and showed that vs 16 is the result of the verses preceding it - which included pastors

 

[The Liturgist]

they are not scriptural the way they are done. We find no Liturgy in scripture

Nonsense. Read Leviticus, read Nehemiah, and as for Christian liturgics, our Holy Communion service is literally in all three synoptic Gospels and also 1 Corinthians ch. 11, and our baptismal liturgy is in Matthew 28:19. And our main prayer is the Lord’s Prayer. Word for word. And in every traditional church, the primary hymns are the Psalms and the Canticles, such as Habbakuk, Benedicite Omni Opera (from Daniel) and the Evangelical Canticles in Luke chapters 1 and 2 (the Benedictus, the Magnificat and the Nunc Dimitus, or Song of Symeon).

St. Paul commanded that worship be done decently and in order, and we know from first century and second century documents such as the Didache and the Strasbourg Papyrus, and also from the ancient liturgies of Second Temple Judaism as instituted, according to the Bible, by St. Esdras (Ezra the Priest), that it was through liturgical prayer that the early Church opted to do that. And as for the liturgies themselves, 93% of the liturgy of my church consists of direct quotations of scripture, and this ratio is the same in other traditional churches such as the Anglican Book of Common Prayer and the traditional Roman Catholic liturgy (pre Vatican II).

 

[Bobber]

This is not my way or something I just made up. It's Gods way. The only way any of the gifts apostles, prophets, evangelist teachers and pastors and all the body can function is this way from Christ the head of the church,

Oh come on. You took my comment to the absolute extreme. Of course leaders are to allow Christ to be the head but you've implied for the reason and because pastoral ministries may be confused or missing it on just what their exact role is that God doesn't ever work through them to help Christians continue in the faith! You were told that Pastors you don't agree with help people continue in the faith or help them get to heaven and you said below,

"No, they are there because they continued in the faith and had Christ working in them who gave them life."

So how about you dial back your game of not giving Pastors you disagree with any credit for anything. You make the arguments you make about other things, things i agree with you less likely people will listen to what you say. That would be most unfortunate but you've gone over into extreme error in suggesting other Pastors don't help people be in the faith.

You've opened the door (as you have rebuked others on here) for others to rebuke and reprove you for your divisive way. Understand my friend you can have some truth but handle it wrongly.

 

[Bobber]

I did not say you are rebuking me I am rebuking in this entire post the things that hinder the church. And it seems some don't like when I do that.

Well now you've modified your statements to make it seem like you were just talking about a post. You were however talking to individuals and you've quoted Prov 9:18 talking about scorners and Rev 3:19 to make it seem like you're God's man of the hour and mouthpiece with absolute truth on the matter. And then you add here that some don't like when you do that? Why should they?

Why should they consider you credible at all? They don't know you. Don't they also have a right to detect if you're speaking the truth of what you say in love? Or the right to consider that you might be somewhat extreme in what you're saying? I'm not perfect myself not claiming I am but how about give people the time and space to process what you're saying and be open for sincere rebuttals. Sorry but it doesn't seem to me that you really are. Dial it back would be my encouragement to you, not necessarily about the one man Pastor theme, but how you present it.....no offence but it seems you need some balance.

 

[LoveofTruth]

(I learned this while paying for my degree)

Read the verses in context

Eph 4: 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, ​

​

And what is the reason for these gifts?​

​

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.​

​

Since we are targeting Pastors - let's look at the word Paul used

maybe you should try to get your money back it didn't help much as you will see...

Pastor is translated from the Greek - poimen "a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks" (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors," Eph 4:11.

this by no means sets the one man pastor gift over the entire church or as the head of the church or as some president or Lord or king or exalted man in pre emniance over all. The definition of the word does not make him over all. We read of apostles and prophets and evangelist and teachers. Again no one is said to be over all and set up to hinder body ministry. The scriptures command that Christ should work in all the body to edify itself in love. If any role or man or pastor gift over all hinders this and quenches the spirit in any part of the body, then this fights against Gods order.

"Pastors" guide as well as feed the flock; cp. Act 20:28, which, with ver. 17, indicates that this was the service committed to elders (overseers or bishops);

in this section in Acts 20 we read nothing of "pastors" we only read of elders who are made overseers by the Holy Ghost. So to assume that these elders are all pastors is false and time to get your money back from your paid "degree". read closely,

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”"(Acts 20:28)

notice that there is no pastor mentioned here. Paul is speaking to the Ephesians Elders as we saw here

“And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.”"(Acts 20:17)

Again, no pastor mentioned, elders are however. And as I said in a previous post, an elder can also be n overseer made by the Holy Ghost called to take oversight if they are willing and desire to do so. But and elder/overseer may be in any of the five fold gifts ministry as we see in the other verse you used from Peter. Peter was an elder and also an apostle. So we already see that an elder/overseer is not just a pastor gifting.

so also in 1Pe 5:1, 2, "tend the flock... exercising the oversight,"

Peter wrote,

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

again we see that a elder/overseer may be an apostle gift as well as Peter was who was also an elder. In this five fold ministry they are all in various aspects of tending and feeding the flock.

The Bible also directly speaks about Bishops (overseers), 1 Timothy 3:1-7

The Bishop is the same Greek word for Overseer. The elders are the overseers as we saw already in a few text. The Holy Ghost made the elders overseers and Peter said elders can take the oversight.

Who is the Bishop in the home church?

The elders are overseers ( Bishops)

As for your position on ministers receiving wages:

1 Tim 5:1717 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.​

No, the word double honour does not mean double pay. That doesn't even sound right saying it aloud. The word honour means "esteem"and "value". This is not referring to a regular salary as some make it.They are very valuable men in the body. The "double part, appears to refer to the labour in "word" and "doctrine", or the fact that they are twice as valuable if they had not done so for the body.valuable and what they receive is honour and esteem among the saints.

There is another similar verse to the one in Timothy and it sounds the same,. Paul said

"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; 13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake"(1 Thessalonians 5:12,13)

here we see the word "esteem" used. Yes it is a different Greek word than "honour" but a similar type of meaning.

Honour- from G5099; a value, i.e. money paid, or (concretely and collectively) valuables; by analogy, esteem (especially of the highest degree), or the dignity itself:—honour, precious,.."

Also Paul could have used the word for "pay" or "wages" saying double "wages" but he didn't. He used honour, meaning valuable or esteem, precious. in Timothy, but he didn't.

Also the same Greek word for "Honour" as used in double honour with the elders is used in the very next chapter in verse 6:1 that reads,

“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.”

Servants don't pay money to their masters.

Lets go back to the section of scripture you used earlier in Acts 20 when pPaul was speaking to the elders/overseers. he said that he did not covet any mans gold or silver and that he worked with his own hands and gave them that example. So Paul would seem to be saying that the elders should work with their own hands. Paul said in other places he worked day and night so as not to be chargable to any man.

“Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:”"(2 Thessalonians 3:8)

And he as an itinerant worker traveling had a right to take some benefit for the work and food and shelter. Because when traveling around it is not always easy to secure a long term work and the body should help these men. But elders can work with their own hands as I and other elders did in the churches in the homes.

We also reading 1 Cor 9 about traveling "apostolic" or "evangelistic "Preachers" being allowed to receive some benefit as they travel itinerantly. It does not call these men "pastors" or local elders who can work. These are specific apostolic preachers. The preachers would be the town criers the ones going about sharing the gospel. As I can show by other scriptures if you need.

"Have we not power to eat and to drink? 5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, ...Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel....“What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.”(1 Corinthians 9:4)

Those that "preach" the gospel, were among the apostles to the lost especially as they traveled around in itinerant ministry. We see this in scripture. A few examples, Preaching is strongly evangelistic.

“Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,” (2 Corinthians 2:12)

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”(Mark 16:15)

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."(Matthew 10:7)

“And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.”"(Mark 1:38)

Preach- "...to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel)..."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well now you've modified your statements to make it seem like you were just talking about a post. You were however talking to individuals and you've quoted Prov 9:18 talking about scorners and Rev 3:19 to make it seem like you're God's man of the hour and mouthpiece with absolute truth on the matter.

No i do not consider myself like you wrongly portrait me. I simply speak what i have seen and heard and what God sends me for.If the scriptures I share cause tension with some, then that may be simply God working in them to reprove, rebuke, exhort or correct.

As far as my heart, God knows. All you hear is my words in text. I have often wept for churches and my heart is for all i speak to. But I am not afraid or shun to declare all the counsel of God. I do not seek to please men, but God. If i should be so concerned about pleasing men in this dark times we live and where most of the brothers and sisters i have seen in church gatherings are bound up under a one man controlling and quenching the spirit and the believers from using their gifts, then I would not be really loving them.

Consider Jesus words about the prophets that were all persecuted by Israel, or how Paul was often misunderstood and some thought Paul walked according to the flesh or that he did not love them. Consider that many misjudged him and did not understand his work.

“Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" (Galatians 4:16)

“Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?..." (Acts 7:52)

“And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.” (2 Corinthians 12:15)

"Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth. 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." (2 Corinthians 11;11-13)

And then you add here that some don't like when you do that? Why should they?

a wise man loves correction and we should always love the scriptures of truth and when God helps us to know His way and order and to walk in His will and commands for the church. If a man does not acknowledge the commands Paul wrote for God's order Paul says he is "ignorant" or not known or received. This is serous. I am not playing a game in here or using lightness.

Why should they consider you credible at all?

if I speak according to Gods will and the holy scriptures, that is my credibility. Search the scriptures daily and see if what i say is true.

They don't know you.

Did the church in Jerusalem know Paul that well when he came and when he saw Peter to be blamed and withstood him to the face before all (Galatians 2). It is not easy to know someone in person on this type of forum. But we can still minister the word here and instruct and have testimony.

Don't they also have a right to detect if you're speaking the truth of what you say in love?

I expect it and hope for that. But to do so would mean they are listening to the Spirit of God and His word.And when I use solid scripture and truth, I wait to see if any respond. I don;t know how any can reject body ministry where all can edify one another in Christ. And where we see no one man pastor gift ver all anywhere in the New testament. That tradition of men came along time ago as can be shown in history. But the other reason some might fight the things of scripture in these areas is because they do not want to change anything. they do not want to have their pastor step down off the high altar and gather as possibly one of the elders in home where all wait on the Lord. Many simply love to have the present order no matter what is shown or exhorted.Many other think they are rich and increased with good and have need of nothing, yet Christ may be outside knocking wanting to come into them and sup with them.

Or the right to consider that you might be somewhat extreme in what you're saying?

I have not spoken in "extreme ways, unless you consider the radical church of the early days "extreme". To change everything to God's order and edify one another in love, may seem extreme to the present man made religious traditions. But we should let everything that can be shaken be shaken, so that all we see is that glorious image of Christ.

I have heard many of the arguments against God;s order and mutual edification of the body and many justification so keep the one man pastor over all.But they all fail when shinning the light of scripture on them. I have heard these many arguments for years. They are often very similar.

I'm not perfect myself not claiming I am

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"(1 Corinthians 6:7)

“Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?” (1 Thessalonians 3:19)

“Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”(Philippians 3:15)

and this is why I use so many scriptures, * that you say I am hiding behind)

"...All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

but how about give people the time and space to process what you're saying and be open for sincere rebuttals.

I give all the time they need. It just takes time to respond to some and they can consider these things as long as needed. i am not rushing anyone.

Sorry

thats a food word to use at times

Dial it back would be my encouragement to you,

I am on fire with God's love and truth,dial it back is to me saying dont be so zealous or put to much effort into these things, calm down its all good no worries. i reject that kind of thing.

Can you imagine when Jesus went into the temple and tipped over the tables and used a whip and pressed them out of the temple in zeal, that some might come to Jesus and say "dial it bak a bot don't be so intense, thats not the way to win friends and influence people Jesus, come on now", what kind of rebuke do you think Jesus would give to them.

Jesus said to the lukewarm Laodicean church that they should be zealous and he would rather they be hot or cold, but they were lukewarm.

but how you present it.....no offence but it seems you need some balance.

I have considered how I present things in the Lord for my entire walk. I have tried many ways , at times in tears and compassion other times sharp rebuke in zeal and boldness. But both are needed at different times

"And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. " (Jude 1:22,23)

Jesus, Paul Peter, John, and others were often misunderstood in their ministry and sometimes by other believers.

I present the truth as clearly as i can with scripture. yes, I will be bold against the things I see as false. But that is needed. If there was a fire and a man came around the corner smiling and in a clam way said, oh theres a fire get away. many might not believe him. But is he ran around the corner with a serious face and yelling fire fire get back!!! they would take heed.

I think of a quite bty Martin Luther that I understand,

“It is true, I have, by and large, sharply inveighed against ungodly doctrines and have not been slow to bite my adversaries, not because of their bad morals but because of their ungodliness. Of this I am so unrepentant that I have resolved to continue in this burning zeal and to despise the judgment of men, after the example of Christ, who in His zeal called His adversaries a generation of vipers, blind, hypocrites, children of the devil (Matt. 23:13; 17:33; John 8:44).

And Paul calls the sorcerer a child of the devil full of all subtlety and all mischief (Acts 13:10); and some false apostles he calls dogs, deceivers, and adulterers of the Word (Phil. 3:2; 2 Cor. 11:13). If these sensitive ears had heard this, they would probably say that no one could be more biting and immoderate than Paul. Who is more biting than the prophets?

But nowadays, of course, our ears are made so sensitive by the mad multitude of flatterers that as soon as we find that we are not praised in all things, we cry out that people are vicious; and when we cannot ward off the truth under any other guise, we escape from it under the pretext of the snappishness, impatience, and immoderateness of its defenders.

What good does salt do if it does not bite? What good does the edge of the sword do if it does not cut? Cursed be the man who does the work of the Lord deceitfully!”

–Martin Luther, What Luther Says: An Anthology, Vol. 1, comp. Ewald M. Plass (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), entry no. 3363, 1057.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So how about you dial back your game of not giving Pastors you disagree with any credit for anything.

I didn't say this, I have not made this discussion personal aboit the specific pastors. But the role and body ministry and how that is affected if you read my first post i did say

"Though there are blessed pastor giftings in the body of Christ, (just as there are apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers), the modern role of the exalted “Pastor” over all does not exist biblically and is a dangerous distortion spiritually to the church. Many of those in this unbiblical role may be true believers and loving men with sincerity and have many good qualities, Others may be seeking their own glory and reputation. "

That would be most unfortunate but you've gone over into extreme error in suggesting other Pastors don't help people be in the faith.

No, I said that ultimately it is Christ who works in them for their salvation. Yes Christ works in all the body, and not just in pastors. Though he does work in pastors who are given the gift for the perfecting of the saints. But you go off into an extreme error when you say that the reason they are in heaven is because of the pastors. To do this you miss the entire body of Christ. What about the loving grandmother some had who prayed for them daily and always directed them to believe in jesus, or the street preacher, apostle or evangelist that shared the gospel with them and they believed it and were saved, then what of the teachers in the body who built them up and instructed them, or of the pastors who nurtured them and showed them where to get food or the prophets they might have met in their walk who exhorted them of God's mind and will. And what of the many brothers and sister all along their life who had Christ working in them to will and to do. You seemed to miss all those by putting the extreme emphasis on the one pastor gift.

To me that is unbalanced.

You've opened the door (as you have rebuked others on here) for others to rebuke and reprove you for your divisive way. Understand my friend you can have some truth but handle it wrongly.

I eagerly wait for any true biblical scriptural correction from you. So far...nothing. Just personal attacks as I have had often from people over the years. I find when some are troubled by the message they attack the messenger. When they have no scriptural correction or spiritual weapons they attribute to the person a bad temper or judge his heart as not loving or that he is extreme. i can imaging how you would have responded when John told those who came to be baptized by him who were Pharisees and “Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?”.. That might have seemed extreme to you, or when the prophets did some "what some might call "extreme " things in the OT.

you say i handle it wrongly. Well, when the Lord sent me to many assemblies, I have seen some assemblies take out the pulpit, take off their microphone, change all the seats to a three row arc, and all wait on the Lord for ministry, and this went on for months at one place. Others have opened up their evening gatherings to allow all to share etc. I have also seen many home meetings built up and encouraged others. It was handled rightly.

Even Jesus when handling all things rightly was rejected hated on His first message reading scripture they wanted to thow him over a cliff. many of His disciples in John 6:66 went back and walked no more with him. All His apostles denied him for a time and scattered. jesus was attacked constantly by the false religious men and on top of all this he was headed for the cross. paul was also rejected by many in the church and the religious crowds and attacked persecuted beaten often all the city in an uproar etc.

I pray God send more such men into the filed, that turn the world upside down and we see Christ in His church working mightily. Instead of outside many lukewarm assemblies that don't know their error.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Would you like to post the letter here, or an excerpt from it?

 

[LoveofTruth]

to all"

Here is a Newsletter I wrote with a brother Tim if your interested

 

[LoveofTruth]

St. Paul commanded that worship be done decently and in order,

Hello, God bless,

This order was God's order not man's order after their traditions. The traditions are after the apostolic order.

Here is a tract I wrote that talks of this order of God vs man's order

also Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:26 that all things should be done unto "edifying". This "edifying is done by Christ the head working effectually in every part of the body unto the edifying of itself in love (Ephesians 4:15,16)

I put the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and all writers of scripture first before any so called "fathers" or those who came much later. Especially if what the later men did was contrary to the order and commands of God in scripture for the church.

 

[seeking.IAM]

.

 

[Always in His Presence]

maybe you should try to get your money back it didn't help much as you will see...

That arrogance disqualifies everything following.

Good day

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all:

when I have been sent to many different assemblies to share the things of God's order and many things. There are three main obstacles i run into in different forms and gatherings.

1. The assemblies that believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today and who believe the scriptures. and God's leading them directly These groups are easier to work with because I can show the clear scriptural commands and order But the one man pastor who controls "all the activities of the assembly" ( as they state in their so called "BY-Laws) and who hinders body ministry when gathered and they have a similar form all over.

2. The assemblies that do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit and who still believe in the scriptures strongly and do not put church "Fathers" over all. They also do not have a ritual or rituals as the main focus and form of the assembly. But still they have that one man above all called the "pastor" who controls all the activities of the assembly and who hinders body ministry when gathered. I find it is harder to speak to these groups because if they do not believe in the gifts of the spirit for today then they already will not accept many scriptures about being led by Christ in these. They will not accept prophecy or tongues or apostles and prophets etc. or every member being free to have a revelation etc. They do not (in many cases) even believe in hearing God directly today, and some do not even believe that Jesus Christ is actually in believers and that we are taught all things by the Spirit in us. They press intellectual learning in languages and bible schools and reading of many commentaries etc. While reading and study in all things is helpful, it is not the way we learn all things. I direct them to 1 Corinthians 2 and other places

4 The Liturgical churches or those that have a set form and a priest over all and there us great ritual in all things. These groups have various understandings of the gifts and the five fold ministry. But it is very difficult to work among these groups because they do not look at scripture the same as I do or as many others do. They will often follow scripture and the so called "church fathers" and some other traditions that came along way after the the apostolic writings. But when I show the apostolic order commanded from scripture they simple start quoting tradition in the so called "church fathers". They seem to make the order and commands of God of no effect by their later traditions added. Jesus also cautioned believers to no have vain repetitions. if what we do is a continuous repetition in form is that worshipping God in spirit and having a spiritual song and revelation?
Right around the time of the early church we see the heresies coming in and other false apostles and leaders. We even read about these things in scripture. Paul warned about these type of things and men drawing away disciples after themselves for three years with tears

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. " (Acts 20L29-31)

Can we take Paul's warning lightly or disregard it completely?

 

[LoveofTruth]

That arrogance disqualifies everything following.

Good day

No arrogance. I strongly am against paying money to get a spiritual teaching in such schools. So that is my stance from scripture and what God has shown me. You simply call it arrogance. I do not draw attention to myself but to God and His way and order in Christ. I am nothing outside of my life in Christ. I do not put myself above others or think I am better than any. The truth i share will shake all things if men believe it and sometimes they simply attack the messenger sadly.

I am soo strongly against the man made order that fights against the order of God and the body ministry that I am not afraid to stand firm against all obstacles I do not hide behind scripture but in the Spirit it is a sharp sword .

You mocking me for speaking of men buying their way into ministry used the expression,

(I learned this while paying for my degree)"

that was arrogance and mockery to me. So I responded towards the weakness of you "Buying your degree" as you said.

you judge me wrong, sadly.

 

[LoveofTruth]

(I learned this while paying for my degree)

​

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”(Isaiah 55:1)

"...freely ye have received, freely give.”"(Matthew 10:8)

“And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”(2 Peter 2"3)

"Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles." (3 John 7)