The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role as opposed to the scripture order of God

[Always in His Presence]

Tithing predates the law. Tithing is an act of worship.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The amphitheaters Paul’s preached his sermons in sure did. So Did Timothy’s church is Asia. Btw his church, according to historians had as many as 12,000 people coming to hear one man preach his sermons

No, the church is the body of Christ, made up of living stones, a spiritual house. It is not a man made building or a converted babylonian temple etc. And as far as men using large areas or arenas to preach that is all acceptable for evangelism. But evangelism is not the same as a functioning church edifying one another as we are commanded to allow in scripture * 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Ephesians 4:10-16, 1 Thess 5:11, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc)

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."(Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV)

"5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."(1 Peter 2:5 KJV)

and

"Likewise greet the church that is in their house..."(Romans 15:5 KJV)

Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house."(Colossians 4:15 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Tithing predates the law. Tithing is an act of worship.

No, the tithing that we see Abraham was not called tithing. He simply gave a freewill offering and he only did this once not the regular tithing commanded in the law and he gave of the spoils of the war, not of all he had or on a regular basis. This was not a command to him. He also circumcised before te law does that mean all believers should as well.

No the tithing under the law is what most tithing churches claim. They even say so in their written literature where they Quote Malachi and other Ot law verses as binding on believers today.

This is to bring them under bondage to press tithing. Giving freely is the new testament way, not of necessity ( or a needful requirement).

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul called the Pastor a gift God gave in the church. He also taught of Bishops and overseers and Elders

God gave gifts unto men, not just "pastors". There were five mentioned in Ephesians 4. Apostles, prophets, evangelist, and pastors and teachers. Not just this one gift. These were gifts not a title of an official office. The elders were who they were , mature brothers, the overseers (or Bishops, same word) refers to what they did, they functioned as those who watched over others and fed them and withstood gainsayers and those who would oppose the truth.

We see that an elder is an overseer and they may be an elder and have various gifts, not just pastors. Peter was an elder and an apostle gift, so pastor gifts are not the only gifts among the elder/overseers

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."(Acts 20:28 KJV) Speaking to the elders.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;"(1 Peter 5:1 KJV) Notice that Peter was also an elder and an apostle. Also he connected them as overseers. So the elders are the same as overseers ( Bishops) and they may have various different gifts among them.

To teach otherwise and set up a one man pastor gift over the church and make the elders a separate class under him and "the supportive arm of the pastor": or Bishops etc , as some man made constitutions say. Is wrong and contrary to scripture

"5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."(Titus 1:3-9 KJV)

Here we see again what elders do and that they are the same person who are also called bishops (overseers).

 

[LoveofTruth]

also no electricity, running water, inside toilets.

No paper, no printing press, no computers, no printers either

I had said

"no showtime religion with floodlights, superstar actors, slide shows etc"

I am not speaking about the culture of the day or the physical issues about electricity etc. I am speaking about the show that is made and the putting a superstar type person on an exalted place on a stage and making them the show. This is seen all over today. To deny this is not right .

What I was showing about putting such a man and his acting and slide shows in the church gatherings, was that this hinders the body ministry and quenches the spirit and does not allow others to have ministry and this fights against the purpose of the church. If all the brothers and sister were allowed to show some testimony or some believers they met in different places etc or to use a slide show to share some good things.But I would still be uneasy about it. The meetings in homes that I have worked with for many years never needed these. Sure if a brother or sister had been ministering and perhaps winning souls in a village in some foreign land and took pictures of the other new believers to encourage the body that would be good. But what Im talking about is the professional business type slide shows with all their pre arranged teachings on a powerpoint show. It takes over the entire gatherings and no one else is free to share. It is set up from the beginning to plan for them to dominate the meeting and no believer or even Christ i fear is on the so called "program" that is handed out.

I would not be as troubled by it. as long as they did not dominate the gathering or hinder others from ministry. But the showtime religion is obvious today. It seems that many want to try and win others with entertainment than sound biblical teaching. I have seen it many times.

 

[LoveofTruth]

not even remotely accurate according to early church fathers

I said

"no services

No Liturgy

no worship services"

And we find no Liturgy in scripture or a thing called a worship SERVICE,

Anything that hinders the free body ministry in Christ to edify one another at any time as we wait on the Lord is hindering to the church.

And no, the Lords supper is not a Liturgy. There is no prescribed form or command to follow a order this way. The early church practice a full meal together, sometimes referred to as a love feast, where they also remembered the Lord with the read and cup. This did not hinder body ministry. But today on many assemblies this has become the main focus and a ritual that is unlike the early church as i have seen from the scriptures and having been among such places many times for years..

Sometimes the believers simply recite words that are written in a response or prayer. This creates a vain or empty repetition and many can do so even if their heart or far from God. We find no such thing in the gatherings in the scripture. In fact we find men only exhorted to pray and minister and edify in the spirit 1 Cor 14 etc.

Anything that hinders or quenches the Spirits leading is to be avoided as scripture teaches.

"...where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Corinthians 3:17 KJV)

"Quench not the Spirit. "(1 Thess 5:19 KJV)

and

"9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The earliest evidence we have is that customs varied from place to place. If, for example, you compare the Didache and the Shepherd (both very early church documents which comment on how gatherings should take place) you find that their instructions are not the same. You might well find those documents an eye-opening read.

I had said

"no different and various orders for meetings,"

But consider the scriptures about God's order among all the churches.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."(1 Corinthians 1:10)

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (1 Corinthians 14:33)

“For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.”

When we go outside of the revelation of scripture given by God through the writers and apostles we can run into confusion and then the word of God (scripture) becomes of no effect by our traditions.

 

[Always in His Presence]

No, the church is the body of Christ, made up of living stones, a spiritual house.

You are conflating words - believers are the body of Christ - we meet in homes and in buildings called churches - have done so for 2,000 years.

No, the tithing that we see Abraham was not called tithing.

He gave a tenth (tithe) as an act of worship and it predates the law

God gave gifts unto men, not just "pastors"

And ALL of the gifts including Pastors are still in the body of Christ (the church)

"no showtime religion with floodlights, superstar actors, slide shows etc"

Really? What about people flooding the streets as the Apostles paraded down them?

I said

and I showed you were mistaken -

My point being - you want to believe as you do - you are free to do so - but denigrating people who serve the Lord Jesus in a form and function you don't agree with helps no - one.

Whether it is a home church of 12 or a mega church of 12,000 like Timothy in first century Asia - our emphasis should be on preaching the Gospel, not trying to tell others what they are doing wrong in their service to God.

Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus - all first century church fathers - all pastors and bishops over congregations that in homes and churches. There is a 2,000 year history that flies directly in the face of what you are trying to impose.

Scripture clearly states a bad tree cannot produce good fruit - and there are billions of people dedicated to Christ, whom one day you and I will meet in heaven, that are there because of Pastors who tend their flocks.

That's all I have -

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are conflating words - believers are the body of Christ - we meet in homes and in buildings called churches - have done so for 2,000 years.

I said

"No, the church is the body of Christ, made up of living stones, a spiritual house."

and I showed scripture to prove this.

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."(Ephesians 1:22,23)

I am not saying anything untrue or contrary to scripture., I simply show you what the Spirit of God showed us in scripture about the true church that we are the body of Christ and Christ is the head and we are a spiritual house built up made with living stone.

The church is not, as you say, "buildings called churches". There is not one verse in the entire bible that shows the church Christ is building is a man made building of brick and mortar called a "church". We read of bringing things to the ears of the church and the church which meets in their house etc.

This is so basic I marvel when some miss this and still go on and try to defend an ancient error tradition that directly contradicts the scripture.

To just rely on tradition and commandements of men that might say what you say is not right according to scripture.

"...rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth" .(Titus 1:13,14)

Around Paul's time there were already false apostles hindering the church (2 Cor 11) and many errors coming in. Paul warned for three years night and day with tears that men would rise up among them speaking wrong things to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20).

Show me scripture for your claim that the man made buildings patterned in ancient times after the Pagan basilicas and temples is scripturally true and that it does not displace the understanding of the true church and hinder it.

I can almost hear the cries against the early reformers who went against the ancient traditions that made the word of God of no effect. I can hear some saying to Wycliff or Luther , "What are you saying? the church has done these things for centuries and believed what they do, who are you to come along and show us scripture to change it?" They would have been wrong to take that stance.

If something is not after Christ or hinders the freedom of the body to minister to one another and is contrary to sound scripture, we should withdraw from it. {ail spoke of this order and freedoms as the "commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor 14:37,38) and these were important. If some men later on in history go away from these things and that becomes the norm, they would still be going against the clear scripture command for the churches of the saints. And these things are for all the churches of the saints.

Its not, "do we have to do things the way God said in the early church through the apostles? its, why would you want to do any other way?

and you say I am "conflating" word. I use scripture rightly divided. The verses I showed show clearly that the church is the body of Christ not a man made building of brick and stone and many believers would agree with me here, if not 99 percent of all believers. I also used another scripture together with that one to show that the church is a spiritual house made of living stones. Both involve many parts making up the church or the body of Christ.


If God commands certain order in the church, should we not be led by Him in this? If God commands it should we listen to any man in the history after the Apostles wrote this that goes against God's commands?

 

[LoveofTruth]

He gave a tenth (tithe) as an act of worship and it predates the law

No, the tithing that we see Abraham was not called tithing. He simply gave a freewill offering and he only did this once not the regular tithing commanded in the law and he gave of the spoils of the war, not of all he had or on a regular basis. This was not a command to him. He also circumcised before the law and sacrificed animals does that mean all believers should as well. Abraham was not in the new covenant yet.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And ALL of the gifts including Pastors are still in the body of Christ (the church)

The other gifts are seldom allowed to freely minister as they are led. The gifts are just that "gifts" they are not a title or office as a leader etc. Elder/overseers were the mature brothers who functioned to help and care for and be examples for others. But they were not controllers or Lords over others

And God commands clearly that all the body can "edify" itself in Christ as Christ works in them effectually to minister and edify one another (Ephesians 4:15,16 with 1 Cor 14L26, 40) .

The order that quenches the spirit in the body and hinders the gifts from happening is often the programs or Liturgy or other forms that do not allow all the body to function or edify one another as God commands they are allowed to do. Christ wants to come in among them and help all and build them up. But sadly, Christ might be standing outside and knocking on many places wanting to come into them and sup with them. This inward working in every part is where the true supper or communion takes place. This is the mystery of Christ in you. But to hinder this in any way because one man dominates over all ( a tradition that started way back, which went against the freedoms of the body). is not right and should be withdrawn from. Sadly, many love to have it so.

When God was working with the people through the prophets and others the people said "give us a king" they wanted to be like all the other nations who had a king. But God allowed this and warned them that they did not want him to rule over them when they did so and all the dangers of such a king and what he would do. They still wanted their king. Today this is similar to wanting a one man over all to rule.

and you say all the gifts are still in the body of Christ. Show me where there are apostles in your gathering and show me prophets as well. Today many assemblies do not believe these gifts are for today, many many hinder these gifts.

Show me your "so called "creed" and what it says about "the ministry and tithing and what verses they use for their tithing. If they use Malachi or other OT verses after the law was given then your argument collapses about tithing as well.you so called "By-Laws" and what they say about the ministry and pastor of the church. I have read some of these and they put the pastor as the supreme head of all and all the activities in the church and no one can minister or have freedom of the pulpit unless he allows it etc. This is contrary to the freedoms commanded in scripture.

I only share scripture truth with you I am not seeking to do any harm to any. I know it is hard to change and it was hard even for the Jewish Christians who went to the temple and kept the law for a long a time after Christ . It was hard for them to come out of it. They even continued doing animal sacrifices for many many years after Christ death ( Acts 21)

 

[LoveofTruth]

My point being - you want to believe as you do - you are free to do so - but denigrating people who serve the Lord Jesus in a form and function you don't agree with helps no - one.

I do not seek to hurt any I simply use scripture to reprove rebuke and exhort and teach. If what God commands in scripture troubles some and their religious forms and traditions. Then maybe talk to the Lord about it. I am simply a sent messenger.

But as scripture says,

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."(2 Timothy 3:16,17)

"...To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."(Isaiah 8:20)

“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”(1 Thess 2:13)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Whether it is a home church of 12 or a mega church of 12,000 like Timothy in first century Asia - our emphasis should be on preaching the Gospel, not trying to tell others what they are doing wrong in their service to God.

if a gathering is too big to allow body ministry i would ( as one who has been planting church for many years) suggest they open another home. A church on every block in homes would be great.

and what I am talking about in God's order, is not a small thing. Christ in His church working effectually to edify the body in love is vital to the life of the church. Otherwise Christ might spew them out of His mouth and be outside knocking wanting to come into them and sup with them.

I speak of the centre of our faith in Christ and Gods working in us. I see many things in man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect and we are warned against them in scripture

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”(Colossians 2:8)

“From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”)Epkesians 4:16)

“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.”(1 Cor. 12:7)


"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."(Hebrews 13:20, 21) .

Paul constantly wanted all churches to speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among them and have the same judgement etc. He sent others to set in order things that were lacking and he had a definite order of God that was given to him as a wise master builder. He taught the same things everywhere and in every church.

"...And the rest will I set in order when I come.”(1 Corinthians 11:34)

“For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:”(Titus 1:5)

“For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.”(Colossians 2:5)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus - all first century church fathers - all pastors and bishops over congregations that in homes and churches. There is a 2,000 year history that flies directly in the face of what you are trying to impose.

If Gods word says something and if Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, then it matters not if there was a Million years of man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect. I will follow after Christ and his word.

here is some interesting history you might find helpful about the errors that were introduced by Ignatius and others

and you try to act as if all churches through history do things the way your assembly does?. That is not true. There are many various orders I have seen in many assemblies. For example the Catholics do things differently than the Brethren and the Pentecostals do things differently than the Baptist etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Scripture clearly states a bad tree cannot produce good fruit - and there are billions of people dedicated to Christ, whom one day you and I will meet in heaven, that are there because of Pastors who tend their flocks.

No, they are there because they continued in the faith and had Christ working in them who gave them life. There will be many that could have grown so much more and edified one another and were much more equipped to win souls and walk in the truth if they were to allow Christ to work effectually in the measure of every part to edify one another when they gathered. instead of only hearing from one man or a few others.

Time will tell the damage that had been done but not stirring up the gift in others and provoking them to love and good works. Time will show how many did not use their God given gifts to help the church and the lost. Time will tell all the damage also that has burned out many a pastor who felt such pressure to do it all and be all for everyone. Many pastors in these places get burned out and weary and discouraged often. But if the body was edifying itself in love they all bear eachothers burdens and ministry is in the Lord to one another

We find so many verses in scripture about the edifying "one to another. We see the church teaching one another edifying one another, exhorting one another, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to one another, warning one another, correcting one another, helping one another. I am speaking specifically when the church gathers together. Yes, all these things can be done outside the gathering. But the gathering of the saints is a wonderful very important thing in scripture. We being many are one bread and one body and we are all partakers of that one bread.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's all I have -

All I look for is the scripture you bring to correct me.

I show you clear scripture and the commands of the Lord, but you seem to run to tradition and men much later that the apostles and the early church order given. You run to the so called "fathers" etc. So far, you have no scriptures to correct me, so I guess that is all you have, nothing.

I eagerly love correction and wait eagerly for the scriptures you bring to try to show what I teach is wrong. I take it very very seriously when anyone seeks to try and correct me and say I teach false. Or to even imply that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit is in some way referring to me.

I charge you before the Lord to bring your scriptures to me.

You may make light of these things I say. But in time we all will give an account of everything we say and do.

God bless.

I pray you consider these things in the Lord.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It's a great post and something that has been on my heart for several years. I think God is going to be working on this area. I have seen some churches in other countries that operate under elders, little or no pay, sharing all responsibilities. I wonder if the bigger fault lies with the church not following the spirit though in other areas as well?

1 Corinthians 14:26 (KJV)
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

This type of service is quite rare but it does exist. Most charismatic or Pentecostal churches may barely allow just a part of this. The reality is that time is given AWAY FROM THE PASTOR or elders, and if someone has something from God, they can move on it if time allows. (There is some restraints put in by elders so that things do not get off track or it does not bear witness).

Ironically, if the church does not do this, (no use) the discernment of the followers is at risk. Fewer opportunities for discernment leave a church member untrained. I think God is about to bust open the religious models in churches that will allow the Holy Spirit to move.

Thanks for your original post.

Hebrews 5:14 (NASB)
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

you might find this interesting also

 

[LoveofTruth]

That’s simply false. St. Ignatius was a great martyr, and nothing which he wrote in his epistles, while he was en route to Rome where he was fed to lions, represented anything new. The basis for episcopal authority is clearly outlined in the Pauline epistles, in particular the Pastoral epistles such as 1 Timothy. Also, the Pastoral offices of Episcopos (Bishop) and Presbyter (Priest or Elder) are clearly described in the New Testament, as well as that of Deacons.

Whatever arguments anyone may have about the abuse of some non-denominational pastors, none of it can be traced to St. Ignatius the Martyr, who is one of the holiest figures of the early church, a man who willingly allowed himself to be devoured by lions in the Coliseum out of love for Christ our God.

you might find this evidence about what I said,

 

[Always in His Presence]

All I look for is the scripture you bring to correct me.

I show you clear scripture and the commands of the Lord, but you seem to run to tradition and men much later that the apostles and the early church order given. You run to the so called "fathers" etc. So far, you have no scriptures to correct me, so I guess that is all you have, nothing.

I eagerly love correction and wait eagerly for the scriptures you bring to try to show what I teach is wrong. I take it very very seriously when anyone seeks to try and correct me and say I teach false. Or to even imply that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit is in some way referring to me.

I charge you before the Lord to bring your scriptures to me.

You may make light of these things I say. But in time we all will give an account of everything we say and do.

God bless.

I pray you consider these things in the Lord.

Well, good for you - God's very best!

Merry Christmas.

Personally, I will stay with what I see in Scripture and follow the Holy Spirit.

 

[Always in His Presence]

But you may find some info here. I haven't looked into his work for years but there is possible connections.

About Us - NTRF - Small Churches, Big Impact

NTRF - The Protestant Reformation of the 1500s began a reform of church practice and belief. As wonderful as the Reformation was, the Magisterial Reformers

ntrf.org

I find it interesting that you like to an organization that has men who have (according to you) purchased their titles and address themselves as Rev., Dr. etc.. Additionally they seem also to be from the Baptist a Denomination known for building huge edifices and calling them churches.