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Israel-Hamas Thread II

Valletta

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Democratic dark money giant behind anti-Israel protests has scored $81M in taxpayer dollars​

Taxpayer money has been by the Democrat machine to support the Hamas terrorists, just like it was to get Joe elections.
 
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JosephZ

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"Gullible" are those whose emotions can so easily be exploited.
I've incuded a few definitions of "gullible" from various dictionaries below:

  • easily deceived or tricked, and too willing to believe everything that other people say;
  • easily duped or cheated;
  • easily persuaded to believe something; credulous.
  • easily fooled or cheated - especially: quick to believe something that is not true
  • too willing to believe or accept what other people tell you and therefore easily tricked

Hamas is exploiting people's emotions, which are based on reality, not deception and/or their naivety, and the emotions people are feeling when they see the amount of destruction and human suffering coming out of Gaza are a result of human nature, not gulibility.



What I posted was "militarily destroy" as in their present capacity to cause harm. That is all one can do. In all of human history, evil has never been eradicated.
ISIS has been the deadliest terror group in the world for eight years running, and Al Qaeda and its affiliates have continued to carry out attacks globally. Their capacity to cause harm has not been destroyed at any point in the past or present.

While it's not possible to completely rid the world of evil, that's not true when it comes to terrorist groups. They can be and often are defeated.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Thank goodness that Hamas is a non government and non state and can never be charged with war crimes. They will always be free to gouge out eyes and cut off breasts as long as "reasons".

War crimes in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war


Since the start of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war on 7 October 2023, the UN Human Rights Councilidentified "clear evidence" of war crimes by both Hamas and the Israel Defense Forces.

Determining the applicability of laws of war to militant groups is a difficult question, [but]

While the term "international law" pertains to states, it also applies to insurgent and terrorist armed forces. Even if an insurgency is deemed lawful — meaning it meets the criteria of "just cause", it must adhere to the principles of "just means." Regarding Hamas and its combatants, even if they have a presumptive right to fight against what they term as an "Israeli occupation," they must still abide by legal rules of "discrimination," "proportionality," and "military necessity."[12]

On 10 October, 2023 the OHCHR stated the taking of hostages and use of human shields were war crimes.[14]United Nations Human Rights chief Volker Türk noted that militant groups' "horrifying mass killings" were violations of international law.
 
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essentialsaltes

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You must have evidence
You need to understand "burden of proof". Israel physically captured and controlled the site. Nothing prevents them from releasing evidence to justify their attack on a medical facility. What they have shared has not convinced many (if any) experts and authorities.

Hamas is not innocent of using the hospital in the way Israel has asserted, but they are not guilty.
 
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essentialsaltes

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U.S. vetoes U.N. cease-fire resolution;

The United States for the third time vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution calling for an immediate humanitarian cease-fire in Gaza, ensuring its failure. Britain abstained, but the other 13 members of the council, including close U.S. allies such as France and Japan, approved the measure.

UN Security Council passes compromise resolution on Israel-Hamas war as US abstains


The United Nations Security Council on Friday approved a resolution that calls for humanitarian pauses between Israel and Hamas, increased aid to Gaza and the creation of conditions that will allow for a sustainable end to fighting, ending days of closed-door negotiations.

The resolution calls for “urgent and extended humanitarian pauses and corridors throughout the Gaza Strip for a sufficient number of days to enable full, rapid, safe, and unhindered humanitarian access.”
 
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Vanellus

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It wasn't said by many at the time but apparently some of the Israeli hostages being taken on October 7 were killed by Israeli gun and tank fire. This survivor of Oct 7 said she was treated "humanely" by Hamas - clearly there were differences in behaviour in Hamas just as there are in the IDF.


More information can be found here:
Report: 7 October testimonies strike major blow to Israeli narrative
 
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o_mlly

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I've incuded a few definitions of "gullible" from various dictionaries below:

  • easily deceived or tricked, and too willing to believe everything that other people say;
  • easily duped or cheated;
  • easily persuaded to believe something; credulous.
  • easily fooled or cheated - especially: quick to believe something that is not true
  • too willing to believe or accept what other people tell you and therefore easily tricked
Number 1,3, 4 and 5 seem to capture the sense of it.
Hamas is exploiting people's emotions, which are based on reality ...
I am not as certain as you that the Hamas reports are of "reality". I do know that Isarel is conducting a just war, Hamas is vicious, unjust and untruthful.

War is always a last resort in part because innocent persons will very likely die. However, in this war, Hamas seems to have planned, insured and counted on the fact that many innocent persons would die, both Israeli and Palestinians.
... the emotions people are feeling when they see the amount of destruction and human suffering coming out of Gaza are a result of human nature, not gulibility.
If an emotion is not checked by reason then it can move us to act wrongly. When emotion overpowers reason then we are all lost. If Israel acted purely from emotion after Oct. 7 then Gaza would be no more. Thankfully, the Israelis were not so gullible so as to be baited by Hamas to do such a thing.

Some on this thread think this war is just too ferocious, too bloody, too much human carnage. But there is no such thing as a "sanitized" war. It is exactly because we are disgusted by war that we have fewer of them.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Bradskii

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Ivanka was seen holding back tears when an IDF soldier told the couple about a story of an Israeli citizen who was gunned down by the Islamic terrorists while she was trying to escape her home through a window.
At the end of their scheduled tour of the destroyed village, the notable husband and wife presented commemorative medallions to those who defended Kibbutz Kfar Aza. They thanked them for their bravery and heroism in protecting the Israeli people.
It stands alone as a tragic story.
 
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Vambram

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Israel blows up 'subterranean terror city' in Gaza where Oct. 7 attack was plotted.

Israel has apparently destroyed the underground tunnel network that was used by Hamas to plot the surprise attack on October 7. The Jewish state has characterized the underground system as a "subterranean terror city," according to the Telegraph.

The terrorist network was discovered underneath Palestine Square by the IDF. The network reportedly contained a number of long tunnels that attached hiding places and offices of Hamas leaders. The development comes after Israel had considered flooding the underground tunnels, making them unusable in the future.

The IDF released footage on Thursday, revealing a number of explosions that ultimately destroyed the underground network. Earlier in the week, Israel confirmed that it had gained control of Hamas' innermost quarter in Gaza City, where many of the top officials operated.




The Telegraph reported that the complex could be described as a "centre of power for Hamas' military and political wing." The IDF went on to say that around 600 Hamas terrorists were killed in the operation, but this figure has not been confirmed.

The report noted that the IDF released a statement, saying that "Palestine Square was a center of Hamas’s military rule and is surrounded by buildings that served as command and control centers, terror tunnel shafts and strategic buildings belonging to the organization."
 
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essentialsaltes

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And the opposite is also true

That doesn't make any sense. Israel has a burden of proof before they are allowed to kill a proportionate number of innocent civilians in a medical facility (in their furtherance of killing bad guys).

Medical facilities are automatically protected unless that burden of proof has been met. It hasn't. There's no 'opposite of that'.

Sure, Israeli experts assert there was a Hamas command center, but without supporting evidence they are automatically in the wrong.

You need to explain that one.......

If Israel cannot meet the burden of proof that Hamas is guilty of something that would remove the humanitarian protection provided to al-Shifa under international law, then Hamas is not guilty of that particular crime. (And Israel is guilty of a war crime, because that humanitarian protection was still in place.)
 
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Valletta

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That doesn't make any sense. Israel has a burden of proof before they are allowed to kill a proportionate number of innocent civilians in a medical facility (in their furtherance of killing bad guys).

Medical facilities are automatically protected unless that burden of proof has been met. It hasn't. There's no 'opposite of that'.

Sure, Israeli experts assert there was a Hamas command center, but without supporting evidence they are automatically in the wrong.



If Israel cannot meet the burden of proof that Hamas is guilty of something that would remove the humanitarian protection provided to al-Shifa under international law, then Hamas is not guilty of that particular crime. (And Israel is guilty of a war crime, because that humanitarian protection was still in place.)

Israel blows up 'subterranean terror city' in Gaza where Oct. 7 attack was plotted.

Israel has apparently destroyed the underground tunnel network that was used by Hamas to plot the surprise attack on October 7. The Jewish state has characterized the underground system as a "subterranean terror city," according to the Telegraph.

The terrorist network was discovered underneath Palestine Square by the IDF. The network reportedly contained a number of long tunnels that attached hiding places and offices of Hamas leaders. The development comes after Israel had considered flooding the underground tunnels, making them unusable in the future.

The IDF released footage on Thursday, revealing a number of explosions that ultimately destroyed the underground network. Earlier in the week, Israel confirmed that it had gained control of Hamas' innermost quarter in Gaza City, where many of the top officials operated.




The Telegraph reported that the complex could be described as a "centre of power for Hamas' military and political wing." The IDF went on to say that around 600 Hamas terrorists were killed in the operation, but this figure has not been confirmed.

The report noted that the IDF released a statement, saying that "Palestine Square was a center of Hamas’s military rule and is surrounded by buildings that served as command and control centers, terror tunnel shafts and strategic buildings belonging to the organization."
This is great news. The faster Israel finishes off Hamas the more lives can be saved.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Sure, Israeli experts assert there was a Hamas command center, but without supporting evidence they are automatically in the wrong.
And once more: The opposite is also true. Which experts have been in the hospital to certify that it was NOT being used by hamas? Reports of journalists? Not exactly experts. So maybe until 'experts' (not sure who qualifies as experts in that) actually get in there you might want to slow down depending on journalist reports making contrary claims to the IDF.
If Israel cannot meet the burden of proof that Hamas is guilty of something that would remove the humanitarian protection provided to al-Shifa under international law, then Hamas is not guilty of that particular crime. (And Israel is guilty of a war crime, because that humanitarian protection was still in place.)
And yet no one can say with certainty that hamas did not use the hospital for military purposes. And given their history of using such places as hospitals, mosques, schools, etc it makes it all the more likely and believable. After all, past behavior is a very good predictor of future behavior.

The Cognitive Impact of Past Behavior: Influences on Beliefs, Attitudes, and Future Behavioral Decisions​

 
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essentialsaltes

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And once more: The opposite is also true.
Once again, the opposite is not true.
Which experts have been in the hospital to certify that it was NOT being used by hamas?

It's a hospital for crying out loud. It's presumed innocent. It does not have to prove its innocence in order to be protected under international law. It's automatically protected.

According to International Criminal Court prosecutor Karim Khan, the bar for evidence that a hospital, school, or place of worship is being used for military purposes is very high.[178] The burden of proof also lays with the Israelis.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Once again, the opposite is not true.
Then show how it is not true. Which 'experts' have been there to show that it was not being used by hamas? I have given you several opportunities to demonstrate that but so far.....nada.....
It's a hospital for crying out loud. It's presumed innocent. It does not have to prove its innocence in order to be protected under international law. It's automatically protected.
But not if hamas is using it for military purposes. Israeli IDF says they are. They are there with boots on the ground looking at it directly, inspecting it up close. Who, from your 'it's not used by hamas for military purposes', is there to do similar inspections to disprove the Israeli statement? If you can't list any then we can just assume you don't have any. Kinda puts you in the perspective of a hamas supporter......someone that no one should take seriously.......
 
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Rodney3929

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I believe this current war in Gaza will morph into the Gog/Magog War of Ezekiel 38/39. Sheba and Dedan (Saudi Arabia/U.A.E), Merchants of Tarshish, and all the young lions (Collective West) thereof, will of course protest this impending invasion to take a great spoil and prey. The interesting thing to note is that these Western powers will obviously have to be in the region as they view the Gog/Magog alliance assemble and prepare to advance.
 
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Rodney3929

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While Israel has Gaza under seige it appears Iran, their proxy militias, and allies have the entire Middle East under seige. The Houthis blockaded the Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, and the Bab al-Mandab Strait chokepoint. Iran now says they will focus on the Mediterranean and the Strait of Gibraltar. The Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz are already Iranianian territorial waters.
 
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