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Pope approves blessings for same-sex couples if they don't resemble marriage

Wolseley

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Other than the tendency of a significant number of traditionalists to reject or otherwise criticize Vatican 2, my main issue with traditionalists does not relate to their views with respect to individual theological points (most of which I would tend to agree with them on). It is that their ecclesiology is fundamentally protestant in that they sit in judgment of the pope in the same maner that the protestant layperson sits in judgment of his pastor. They determine for themselves what the deposit of the faith allows and prohibits. If they privately conclude that the pope has taught inconsistently with their private determinations, they condemn him publicly and accuse him of heresy as some people have done in this very thread. There is simply nothing Catholic or traditional about that. This attidude of the laity and disresepct of the vicar of Christ would have been unheard of in most ages.
Again, I have not seen any of this in the Traditionalists that *I* know.
Well, I am not asking people to follow the German bishops. I am asking them to follow the roman pontiff. The vicar of Christ. The one to whom our Lord Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom. To me, the pope is not just another bishop. The German bishops must ultimatley submit to the authority of the pope, as well.
I'm glad to see we agree on this point, at least.
Well, who gets to decide whether something contradicts Holy Scripture and the deposit of faith? Who gets to determine what must be kept, what should be discarded, and what should be changed?
The Magisterium of the Church. The assembled cardinals, bishops, and theologians, with the pope, interpreting through the Deposit. But none of them, apart from the others, can make those determinations....and if all of them promulgate something outside the Deposit, it is null and void.

Your questions are rank nonsense. You have not and can not prove that Pope Francis has contradicted Sacred Tradition.
He doesn't have to. By being as ambiguous and cloudy as he always is in his statements, the media and the agendists will take care of that aspect for him. Case in point:

Michie said:
Yep. And therein lies the confusion. I think what upsets me the most is when those like Fr. Martin and other clergy take this and give a very false witness to the faithful. Yet nothing is done about it. Muller is probably next on the chopping block.
 
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IcyChain

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This document is much more problematic than some are letting on, and it's not just the mainstream media that interpret it to be a step in a certain direction. Cardinal Müller thinks the document is self-contradictory, and he may well be right. In that case it would be as helpful to say, "Well the square circle clearly states that it is a square, and therefore there is no problem." The problem is that it is simultaneously a circle.

The only conceivable way to read the document in a non-contradictory way would be to assume that it is directed at gay couples who are intending to live chastely, but I think this would be an enormous stretch. That possibility aside, the DDF is trying to square a circle, perhaps to throw a bone to the Germans. It's not possible to bless same-sex couples without blessing same-sex couples.
I think that is a misreading of the document.

Let's take the definition of the word "couple":

a: two persons married, engaged, or otherwise romantically paired​

So a blessing of a same-sex "couple" is a blessing of two gay people who are romantically paired.

The Mueller criticism appears to interpret the document so as to conflate "blessing a couple" to "blessing a homosexual union" or "blessing a homosexual relationship" but I do not think that concludes from logic or from reading the document itself.

First, the blessing of a homosexual union or relationship is explicitly prohibited in the document:

"For this reason, when it comes to blessings, the Church has the right and the duty to avoid any rite that might contradict this conviction or lead to confusion. Such is also the meaning of the Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which states that the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex."​
"From a strictly liturgical point of view, a blessing requires that what is blessed be conformed to God’s will, as expressed in the teachings of the Church."​
"the Church does not have the power to confer its liturgical blessing when that would somehow offer a form of moral legitimacy to a union that presumes to be a marriage or to an extra-marital sexual practice."​
So with that background, when the document talks about blessing gay couples, I think it is clear that the object of the blessing is the people within the relationship, not the "homosexual union" or the "homosexual relationship". For example, the document states:

Within the horizon outlined here appears the possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex, the form of which should not be fixed ritually by ecclesial authorities to avoid producing confusion with the blessing proper to the Sacrament of Marriage. In such cases, a blessing may be imparted that not only has an ascending value but also involves the invocation of a blessing that descends from God upon those who—recognizing themselves to be destitute and in need of his help—do not claim a legitimation of their own status, but who beg that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

The document clearly speaks about the blessing being imparted on "those who" recognize themselves as being in need in of God's help and who do not claim legitimization of their own status. These nouns "those who" "themselves" etc. make it clear (at least to me) that the object of the blessing is the individual people within the relationship, not the relationship itself . . .
 
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Chrystal-J

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That's the same as a pregnant woman wanting a blessing of her pregnancy before an abortion. Two men or women who fully expect participate in mortal sin want a blessing regarding that sin. Otherwise, they would get blessing not as a couple, but singularly.
 
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Wolseley

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It shouldn't have to take extensive research or sifting through numerous definitions to determine what a pontiff is trying to say. Granted, all of them speak in Vaticanese, but Francis is a champion at being so non-commital that you don't know whether he's saying A or B.

Every time the Vicar of Christ says something, he should couch it in a manner that leaves no doubt whatsoever in the minds of the faithful as to what he's trying to put across.

Yeah, yeah, I know: "Who am I to say how the pope should speak." Got it already. :|
 
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IcyChain

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Again, I have not seen any of this in the Traditionalists that *I* know.

I'm glad to see we agree on this point, at least.

The Magisterium of the Church. The assembled cardinals, bishops, and theologians, with the pope, interpreting through the Deposit. But none of them, apart from the others, can make those determinations....and if all of them promulgate something outside the Deposit, it is null and void.
Well let's say that all of the assembled cardinals, bishops theologians, and the pope get together and decide that X is the consistent with the deposit of faith, and John Smith determines that X contradicts the deposit of faith. In this case John Smith refuses to submit to the roman pontiff and the bishops in communion with him, and follows his own interpretation of the deposit of faith. I have trouble seeing how this is substantially any different than what Martin Luther did.

Sure, John Smith believes that he is correct and that the assembled cardinals, bishops theologians, and the pope are wrong. But Martin Luther also thought he was correct and that all of the assembled cardinals, bishops theologians, and the pope were wrong. How can John Smith be so sure that he is correct and the magisterium is wrong? Martin Luther was confident in his analysis.

It seems to me that John Smith's actions can only be proper if it is assumed that he is correct. But his problem is that he is capable of error, just as he thinks the magisterium is. . .
He doesn't have to. By being as ambiguous and cloudy as he always is in his statements, the media and the agendists will take care of that aspect for him.
That is fair. At least from this thread I can understand better why people are concerned about the document. It does not have the best optics especially with the media reporting on it the way it has been. That being said, when I read the document itself, I still cannot find any statement within the document that is error. But from a communication standpoint, it does seem that there are certain phrases in the document that could have been worded better, such that it would have been more difficult for the media to run with it.
 
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IcyChain

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It shouldn't have to take extensive research or sifting through numerous definitions to determine what a pontiff is trying to say. Granted, all of them speak in Vaticanese, but Francis is a champion at being so non-commital that you don't know whether he's saying A or B.

Every time the Vicar of Christ says something, he should couch it in a manner that leaves no doubt whatsoever in the minds of the faithful as to what he's trying to put across.

Yeah, yeah, I know: "Who am I to say how the pope should speak." Got it already. :|
I think it just comes down to people understanding the document in different ways. Personally I thought this document was pretty clear and easier to follow, definitely in comparison with a lot of other stuff coming from the Vatican (be it from Francis or his predecessors). Perhaps it could have been written better but yeah I guess there is really no "perfect" document from a stanpoint of communication or readability. If a document is short some will say it should have been longer. If it is long pepole will say it is overly complex and should have been shorter. Each person comes to a document with a different background and communication style so I think you'll typically have people who interact with it in different ways. Same with Sacred Scripture and everything else I think . . .

And yeah just to be clear I'm not saying that folks don't have a right to express concerns about the pope or any other bishop I think I wrote previously in this thread that people have the right to do that but it should be done in a respectful manner, and people should try to interpret the documents in a positive light to the extent possible. I think the vicar of Christ should at least be given the benefit of the doubt and that any criticisms should be thoughtful, researched, well-thought out, and open to the possibility that what the pope has written is correct. At the very least I would expect Catholics to read the actual document before criticizing the contents of it, and that was not always done here . . .
 
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zippy2006

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So a blessing of a same-sex "couple" is a blessing of two gay) people who are romantically paired.
Yes, this is correct. You have admirably identified the definition of a couple.

So with that background, when the document talks about blessing gay couples, I think it is clear that the object of the blessing is the people within the relationship, not the "homosexual union" or the "homosexual relationship".
Someone on Christianity Stack Exchange put this a bit more succinctly. They said, "...we cannot construe the word couple here to mean anything other than the individual persons." This is to refuse the definition of "couple."

As Merriam-Webster notes, a couple is two people "paired together." To bless a couple is to bless two people as paired. To bless a couple is to bless more than the individual persons.

Now some apologists (e.g. Trent Horn) try to say that there is a middle ground between an individual and a homosexual union, and that that middle ground is a same-sex couple. I don't see how this could be correct. The pairing represents a union. Couples are inherently united via their coupling/pairing. I think Muller is right: the document is self-contradictory.

The document clearly speaks about the blessing being imparted on "those who" recognize themselves as being in need in of God's help and who do not claim legitimization of their own status.
And like I said above, "The only conceivable way to read the document in a non-contradictory way would be to assume that it is directed at gay couples who are intending to live chastely, but I think this would be an enormous stretch."

Think about it. If a homosexual couple recognizes themselves as being in need of God's help, and do not claim legitimization, then what do they seek God's help for? It could be for nothing else than ultimately dissolving their homosexual union. Thus to present to a priest as a couple, for the sake of uncoupling, is another inherent contradiction. It would be like asking the priest for a blessing, as a couple, in order that the coupling might be dissolved. Again, this makes zero sense and the contradictions simply multiply.
 
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IcyChain

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As Merriam-Webster notes, a couple is two people "paired together." To bless a couple is to bless two people as paired. To bless a couple is to bless more than the individual persons.
I don't think so. Being romantically paired is an attribute of the people. A homosexual is a man or a woman who has sexual attraction towards a member of the same sex. If a gay man approaches a priest and asks for a blessing, the object of the blessing is the gay man, not his attribute of being sexually attracted to other men.

But I don't think what you are saying is completely unreasonable. I can see how you look at it the way that you do. I get your point and yeah perhaps a different word choice would have been better there.

But when I read the document as a whole I think it is clear that the object of the blessing is not the homosexual union itself. In particular I think the paragraph with the "those who" language makes it clear that the object of the blessing is persons, not the relationship.

And like I said above, "The only conceivable way to read the document in a non-contradictory way would be to assume that it is directed at gay couples who are intending to live chastely, but I think this would be an enormous stretch."

Think about it. If a homosexual couple recognizes themselves as being in need of God's help, and do not claim legitimization, then what do they seek God's help for? It could be for nothing else than ultimately dissolving their homosexual union.
Here I do think that the document contemplates that the blessing will be so that they can live according to the faith (which would ultimately imply a dissolution) and perhaps even more general blessings for God acting positively in their lives.
Thus to present to a priest as a couple, for the sake of uncoupling, is another inherent contradiction. It would be like asking the priest for a blessing, as a couple, in order that the coupling might be dissolved. Again, this makes zero sense and the contradictions simply multiply.
I'm not sure exactly why that is a contradiction. I wrote about it before but years back I was struggling with watching adult movies. When I went into confession I presented myself before the priest as a person who was struggling with that sin. I wanted the grace conferred in the sacrament to battle that sin. Presenting myself in a state of sin doesn't mean that I am seeking for that sin to be legitimized or that I am proud of that state.

I'm not quite sure if I understood the point you wanted to make there, but I think that your analysis here is based on the assumption that the object of the blessing is the homosexual relationship itself, but as noted above I disagree with you on that point. . .

And also - I don't know if the blessing necessarily has to be for the sake of uncoupling. I think the blessing could be asking be for God's grace in a number of ways (which would always tend to be directed toward an increase in holiness) but I'm not sure if that necessarily has to be for uncoupling. Maybe they would like God's grace to have a more active prayer life; to better discern the truth; to have less impure thoughts and temptation to sin. It could be a zillion things really. I thought the point that he was trying to make there was that they cannot approach for the purpose of having their union blessed or otherwise legitimized, not that they expressly have to ask for a blessing not to be gay anymore. As long as they are not seeking a blessing of their sinful activity other aspects of their lives can be blessed. . .

It's like, I can approach the priest and ask for a general blessing for God's protection in my life, I don't have to approach him for the express purpose of ending my sinful habit of watching adult movies (athough I can ask for that too). What is prohibited is if I approached the priest with a T-shirt that says "I watch adult movies, please bless my watching of XYZ adult movie tonight." I had understood that part of the document along those lines. . .

Anyway thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. I think I'll bow out of this thread for now but I'll take another read of the document and study the issue more.
 
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zippy2006

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If a gay man approaches a priest and asks for a blessing, the object of the blessing is the gay man, not his attribute of being sexually attracted to other men.
Yes, but there is a difference between a couple and an individual, and I don't think the document manages to take that difference into account. The document makes arguments on the basis of individuals and then applies the conclusions of those arguments to couples. But the two are quite different. When it comes to individuals it is rather easy to separate the sin from the sinner. When it comes to couples it is a great deal more difficult.

But when I read the document as a whole I think it is clear that the object of the blessing is not the homosexual union itself. In particular I think the paragraph with the "those who" language makes it clear that the object of the blessing is persons, not the relationship.
The document is clear that the blessing of couples is permitted, and what is a couple apart from the union that unites them? Can a couple really be singled out from the reality that constitutes their coupling?

Here I do think that the document contemplates that the blessing will be so that they can live according to the faith (which would ultimately imply a dissolution) and perhaps even more general blessings for God acting positively in their lives.
Yes, I agree.

I'm not sure exactly why that is a contradiction. I wrote about it before but years back I was struggling with watching adult movies. When I went into confession I presented myself before the priest as a person who was struggling with that sin. I wanted the grace conferred in the sacrament to battle that sin. Presenting myself in a state of sin doesn't mean that I am seeking for that sin to be legitimized or that I am proud of that state.
Right, but I don't believe couples will act in this manner, or I would at least say that it would be extremely rare. So you are right that it is not a strict contradiction. "We are a homosexual couple and we want you to bless us to help us stop engaging in homosexual acts." I don't see this as a realistic scenario, although it is technically possible.

One way to think about it is as follows. When a couple is being blessed as a couple, the thing that unites and pairs them is also being blessed. So to bless a married couple is to bless the marriage which unites them. But if a blessing is ultimately intended to dissolve a coupling, then what unites and pairs the couple is not being blessed (it is, in a relevant sense, being cursed or opposed). In that sense such a blessing would be a blessing of individuals, not a couple, for the intention is that the coupling cease and the individuals separate, at least insofar as their sexual activity is concerned. It is this language of blessing "the couple" that is the difficulty, for one cannot bless a couple as a couple without blessing the thing that makes them a couple.

And also - I don't know if the blessing necessarily has to be for the sake of uncoupling. I think the blessing could be asking be for God's grace in a number of ways (which would always tend to be directed toward an increase in holiness) but I'm not sure if that necessarily has to be for uncoupling. Maybe they would like God's grace to have a more active prayer life; to better discern the truth; to have less impure thoughts and temptation to sin. It could be a zillion things really. I thought the point that he was trying to make there was that they cannot approach for the purpose of having their union blessed or otherwise legitimized, not that they expressly have to ask for a blessing not to be gay anymore. As long as they are not seeking a blessing of their sinful activity other aspects of their lives can be blessed. . .

It's like, I can approach the priest and ask for a general blessing for God's protection in my life, I don't have to approach him for the express purpose of ending my sinful habit of watching adult movies (athough I can ask for that too). What is prohibited is if I approached the priest with a T-shirt that says "I watch adult movies, please bless my watching of XYZ adult movie tonight." I had understood that part of the document along those lines. . .
Yes, perhaps. My difficulty is that while it is easy to separate an individual from their sin, it is much more difficult to separate a homosexual couple from their sin. The homosexual activity is precisely what makes them a couple. As Merriam-Webster identifies, the difference between a couple and two friends is the romantic aspect. For an analogy, if sex were a sin then marriage could not be blessed, for sex is central to the marital pairing. But you are surely right that the document tries to bless the couple without blessing the sin, so to speak. Still, many of us wonder if this is logically possible.

Anyway thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. I think I'll bow out of this thread for now but I'll take another read of the document and study the issue more.
You too. Good thoughts.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Not to argue but the Pope did not and cannot change Tradition.

He is entitled to his opinion that sinners need the blessings to come to Jesus/Church.

We may not know if he does save one soul or not.
It heavily depends on the manner the clergy 'speak about it and delegate the blessings'
 
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Michie

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If it is a proposed infallible teaching, it has to go through several channels and the cardinals first. This latest writing from the pope does not meet those qualifications.
 
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IcyChain

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Yes, but there is a difference between a couple and an individual, and I don't think the document manages to take that difference into account. The document makes arguments on the basis of individuals and then applies the conclusions of those arguments to couples. But the two are quite different. When it comes to individuals it is rather easy to separate the sin from the sinner. When it comes to couples it is a great deal more difficult.


The document is clear that the blessing of couples is permitted, and what is a couple apart from the union that unites them? Can a couple really be singled out from the reality that constitutes their coupling?


Yes, I agree.


Right, but I don't believe couples will act in this manner, or I would at least say that it would be extremely rare. So you are right that it is not a strict contradiction. "We are a homosexual couple and we want you to bless us to help us stop engaging in homosexual acts." I don't see this as a realistic scenario, although it is technically possible.

One way to think about it is as follows. When a couple is being blessed as a couple, the thing that unites and pairs them is also being blessed. So to bless a married couple is to bless the marriage which unites them. But if a blessing is ultimately intended to dissolve a coupling, then what unites and pairs the couple is not being blessed (it is, in a relevant sense, being cursed or opposed). In that sense such a blessing would be a blessing of individuals, not a couple, for the intention is that the coupling cease and the individuals separate, at least insofar as their sexual activity is concerned. It is this language of blessing "the couple" that is the difficulty, for one cannot bless a couple as a couple without blessing the thing that makes them a couple.


Yes, perhaps. My difficulty is that while it is easy to separate an individual from their sin, it is much more difficult to separate a homosexual couple from their sin. The homosexual activity is precisely what makes them a couple. As Merriam-Webster identifies, the difference between a couple and two friends is the romantic aspect. For an analogy, if sex were a sin then marriage could not be blessed, for sex is central to the marital pairing. But you are surely right that the document tries to bless the couple without blessing the sin, so to speak. Still, many of us wonder if this is logically possible.


You too. Good thoughts.
OK I lied. I am jumping back into the thread.

The "sex being a sin" hypothetical you raised is interesting. It raises in my mind the question of "what makes a couple?" Let's say you have two gay men that have been best friends for a few years. They hang out with each other every weekend. They are super-close, but do not engage in any sexual activity of any kind. They may even live together, but they are chaste. Are they a couple? If this same pair of men starts having sex, do they then become a couple?

Let's then look at the situation where you have a Catholic male and female who have been dating each other for a year or two. They are best friends. They hang out every weekend. They are exploring the possibility of marriage. But they are completely chaste as well. Both of us would call these two people a couple even though they are not having sex, right? So it can't be the case that sex is what makes two people "a couple".

So even in the case that "a same-sex couple" (in the sense of them as a "unit", "bond" or "relationship") is the object of the blessing, I do not think that we can view the sinful activity (the two men having sex) as constitutive element of what makes them a "couple" because we have couples that do not engage in sex. So then is it possible to bless the "couple" without blessing the sin that the couple engages in, because the sin itself is not what makes them a "couple"? I do not know. My intuition is that making the couple (in the sense of "the bond" or the "unit") the object of the blessing would be error, but it is difficult for me to pin down exactly why, when I look at it from this perspective. The question here is, what is the specific constitutive element of a male-male "couple" that would make blessing this couple tantamount to blessing sin?

Then I also wonder, if a Catholic unmarried male-female couple are having sex, would the priest be forbidden from giving them a blessing if they asked for one?

Going back to the main issue of how "blessing a couple" should be understood, please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are looking at the two people as forming a unit (the "couple") that is bigger than the individual parts, and you think that it is the unit that is being blessed. If that is right, I don't think it is unreasonable, especially if we were to look just at the term "blessing of a couple" outside of the overall context of the document. In substance, I think this essentially equates "blessing of the couple" to mean "blessing of the unit", "blessing of the relationship" or "blessing of the bond". But let me know if I have misunderstood you.

Then it seems that from your perspective, if the "couple" (e.g. the unit, relationship or the bond) is the object of the blessing then the only way this blessing could be permissible is if the couple has agreed to be chaste (similar to the "brother and sister" arrangement for the divorced and remarried). This is one way we could interpret the document without falling into error, but I agree with you that this seems like a stretch. At least to me, the "brother and sister" relationship does not appear to be what the document contemplates.

When I read the document I did not have the impression at all that "blessing of a couple" should be interpreted in that manner, however. I think a big part of that is because the document goes to pretty-good lengths to clarify that the object of a blessing cannot be sin and that there is no intention to give legitimacy to the validity of same-sex unions. Here the document states that "the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex"; "the Church does not have the power to confer its liturgical blessing when that would somehow offer a form of moral legitimacy to a union that presumes to be a marriage or to an extra-marital sexual practice"; "a blessing requires that what is blessed be conformed to God’s will" and "precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding".

With all of that background, when I read the term "blessing of couples" in the document, I immediatley thought that it meant "blessing of the two people forming the couple" or "blessing of the two people in the relationship." I thought this sentence in particular made it clear that the object of the blessing is the people in the relationship, not the union itself: "In such cases, a blessing may be imparted that not only has an ascending value but also involves the invocation of a blessing that descends from God upon those who—recognizing themselves to be destitute and in need of his help—do not claim a legitimation of their own status, but who beg that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of the Holy Spirit."

I thought the part about the blessing descending from God down upon those who recognize themselves to be destitute to be clearly referring to the people themselves as the object of the blessing.

Even outside of the context of the document itself, I think its reasonable to interpret "blessing of a couple" as "blessing of the two people in a romantic relationship". For example, if the document had stated "blessing of brothers" and I approached a priest after Mass with my brother and said "Father, could you please bless me and my brother" - I don't have the intention for the priest to bless our status or bond of being "brothers" and I don't think the priest has that intention either. I look at it as the priest blessing the two of us at the same time, and we just so happen to be brothers.

Similarly, let's say that there is a husband and a wife. Sitiuation 1 is that on the day that they get married they ask the priest to bless their marriage. Situation 2 is that on another day they approach a different priest after Mass together and ask for a blessing together as husband and wife. I would tend to think of situation 1 as "blessing the marriage" or "blessing the union" and I would tend to think of Situation 2 more along the lines of "blessing the couple". The situations are not equivalent in my mind. In Situation 1 it is the thing (the marriage / union / bond) that is being blessed. In Situation 2 it is the people that are the object of the blessing (they just so happen to be married).

But I think I understand the way that other people are viewing the document now and what they view as the problem with it. At least now I can see the substance of the objection. The initial reaction by many was more along the lines of various "the pope is trying legalize sodomy" conspiracy theories, so I had trouble taking them seriously.
 
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fide

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OK I lied. I am jumping back into the thread.

The "sex being a sin" hypothetical you raised is interesting. It raises in my mind the question of "what makes a couple?" Let's say you have two gay men that have been best friends for a few years. They hang out with each other every weekend. They are super-close, but do not engage in any sexual activity of any kind. They may even live together, but they are chaste. Are they a couple? If this same pair of men starts having sex, do they then become a couple?

Let's then look at the situation where you have a Catholic male and female who have been dating each other for a year or two. They are best friends. They hang out every weekend. They are exploring the possibility of marriage. But they are completely chaste as well. Both of us would call these two people a couple even though they are not having sex, right? So it can't be the case that sex is what makes two people "a couple".
.........
I read the first 2 paragraphs of your dissertation, and quit because this arguments sounds 'way too familiar, so favored as it is in today's Vatican: "Take a key word, one not precisely defined in Catholic Tradition, one that is ambiguous even in common parlance, having meaning 'on the street' that depends entirely on context. Then build an false argument by using the ambiguity in different contexts to bend an argument toward the one we want to prevail, one that is clearly false by non-duplicitous "logic." Disobedience of God's will is too plainly wrong to be attacked directly.

The clever way requires inventive "language-crafting." As Saul Alinsky wrote of the successful disciple of communism: "... he does not have a fixed truth — truth to him is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing. He is a political relativist." Is this not what satan illustrates for us in the Garden?

We are not disciples of satan! His way is death. Truth IS fixed, and most people "in the street" (progressive faux-theologians excepted) know that blessing two homosexuals seeking a blessing in the end on their "new normalcy" and "new equivalency" - in this acceleration toward new insanity - is dead-wrong. A fancy invitation to error ought to be denied asap, and save time and pain.
 
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Michie

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Michie

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IcyChain

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I read the first 2 paragraphs of your dissertation, and quit because this arguments sounds 'way too familiar, so favored as it is in today's Vatican: "Take a key word, one not precisely defined in Catholic Tradition, one that is ambiguous even in common parlance, having meaning 'on the street' that depends entirely on context. Then build an false argument by using the ambiguity in different contexts to bend an argument toward the one we want to prevail, one that is clearly false by non-duplicitous "logic." Disobedience of God's will is too plainly wrong to be attacked directly.

The clever way requires inventive "language-crafting." As Saul Alinsky wrote of the successful disciple of communism: "... he does not have a fixed truth — truth to him is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing. He is a political relativist." Is this not what satan illustrates for us in the Garden?

Truth IS fixed, and most people "in the street" (progressive faux-theologians excepted) know that blessing two homosexuals seeking a blessing in the end on their "new normalcy" and "new equivalency" - in this acceleration toward new insanity - is dead-wrong. A fancy invitation to error ought to be denied asap, and save time and pain.
The crux of your argument here seems to be "It is wrong. Everybody knows it is wrong. Any attempts to demonstrate otherwise is sophisticated sophistry to attempt to legitimize sin."

That argument is perfectly fine, but it contains no substance. There is nothing really to discuss. Fr. James Martin may as well come on here and post "It is right. Everybody knows it is right. Any attempts to demonstrate otherwise is sophisticated sophistry to attempt to criminalize moral acts."

I mean, if the conversation is too complicated for you, please feel free to ignore it and I will carry on the discussion with the person I was having it with.

And yeah, if you just want to shut the conversation down with a sound "NO" and end all discussion you can certainly become a priest and perhaps one day you will be elected pope and you will have the authority to do that. Personally, if the question had been put to me, I would likely have not issued something like FS. I would probably just say "Nope. Not at all. Not possible. Too bad" like most of the trads would like. To me, FS does not strike me as good optics or a prudent thing to do, even if we give the pope the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is not part of a grand conspiracy to slowly usher sodomy into the Church. But even though FS is something I would not issue myself, my general disposition is that the pope knows more than I do, and is a better position to make those decisions being the vicar of Christ, theologically formed from years of trainig, having the guidance of the Holy Spirit and so forth. I am not just going to assume that I am correct and the vicar of Christ is wrong "just because". The magisterium teaches the laity. The laity does not teach the magisterium. It is our job to try to understand the teaching and that is what we have been attempting to do in this discussion.
 
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chevyontheriver

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