A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[Lost4words]

Tribulation has been ongoing since the birth of Christianity. At varying degrees.

 

[Douggg]

The place of safety, as Prophesied in Revelation 12:14, cannot be in the Holy Land.
The Anti-Christ 'beast' conquers Jerusalem and sits in the Temple at that time; the mid point of the final 7 years. Zechariah 14:1-2

The place prepared of God in Revelation 12:6 is the land of Israel. The Jews at the end of WWII returned to the land of Israel to escape the attempts by Satan to destroy them during their time of exile into the nations. Such as the holocaust of WWII.

Revelation 12:6 is the first half 1260 days of the 7year 70th week of Daniel 9, determined upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24.

The time, times, half time takes place in the second half of the seven years. And the wilderness in Revelation 12:14 is the mountains of Israel - where, in Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus told them to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place - i.e. on the temple mount.

The Jews who don't flee in a timely manner, their escape path will be blocked, and thus become vulnerable to the persecution of Satan, in Revelation 12:17.

----------------------------------------------

The church is not in Revelation 12. Revelation 12 is about what will happen to the Jews, Israel during the end times 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

 

[Douggg]

- No conection, but a comparison. How many of GOD's people got out from Egypt and crossed the red Sea, to heir the Promised Land? Exodus 12:37 gives us a clue. Take a look and make a calculation.

How many of the house of Israel (Jacob) went into Egypt at the time of Jospeh? I think the number was around 70.

Four hundred years later, 600,000 men, not counting children, came out in the Exodus.

So I am not understanding the significance of your comparison... to the end times time, times, half time Satan will have left.

According to your interpretations of the Scriptures as exposed by you above, and also to your ridiculous conceptions , you have probably already been swallowed by the red Dragon, which deceiveth the whole world. Terrible

Oseas, you are attacking the poster instead of the content of the post. Your comment and similar comments that you make to others in this forum is inappropriate. Stay in your lane, and just address the content of the posts by others.

Redirect your energy into making some timeline charts of the events in Revelation 12, and other parts of Revelation. I use Corel paintshop pro as the program to make my charts. If you get it (available as a download from Amazon) and need some help let me know.

 

[keras]

The church is not in Revelation 12.

This statement displays how you straight out ignore plainly stated scripture.
The faithful Christians Gods righteous people are the people taken to safety and they are also Christians who must remain in the Holy Land, as Revelation 12:17 makes clear.

Revelation 12:6 is the first half 1260 days of the 7year 70th week of Daniel 9,

This is another untrue statement. Proved by how Gods faithful people are kept safe from the 'beast', while he has world dominion. Plainly for the final 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days; before Jesus Returns.

I suggest you give up your promoting theories and ideas which are proved wrong and destroy any reputation you may have had.

 

[Douggg]

This is another untrue statement. Proved by how Gods faithful people are kept safe from the 'beast', while he has world dominion.

If kept safe from the beast, then why are they are martyred for refusing to take the mark, for refusing to worship the beast, for refusing to worship his image? Revelation 20:4

btw, there is no phrase match in the kjv for "God's faithful people.

GOD'S FAITHFUL PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE

See 'God\'s faithful people' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

I suggest you give up your promoting theories and ideas which are proved wrong and destroy any reputation you may have had.

Spare the lectures and work on some timeline charts instead. Start with Daniel 9:27.

 

[oikonomia]

Informing (prophecy) is not the cause of the great tribulation either.

If the man-child is not caught up to heaven the good angels would not have the ground to drive Satan DOWN.
If Satan is not driven DOWN then there would not be the annoucement of WOE to the earth dwellers.
And the WOE has to do with Satan summoning up the Antichrist and his false prophet.

This chain of events starts with the rapture of the man-child which immediately causes Michael and the good angels
as saints "ministering servants" to assist according to God's will.

Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:14)

If you believe the angels are ministering servants to Israel why can they not be also to the new covenant church ?

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. . . . And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.
And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. (Rev.12:5,7,8)

The cause of the great tribulation is God by His judgments and wrath carried out, and on the opposite site, the persecutions by the beast-king, the false-prophet, Satan, and their followers.

Here we see in Revelation 13:1 Satan summoning up the persecuting beast.

And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy. (13:1)

This is the EFFECT. Now if we back up just a few verses we see the CAUSE of the EFFECT.

Rev. 12:12 - Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

Rev. 12:17-13:1 -
And the dragon [Satan] became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

And he [Satan] stood on the sand of the sea.

And I saw a beast [Antichrist] coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy.

The same facts are seen in the 9th chapter of Revelation associated with the blowing of the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet. (three final WOES)

Rev. 9:1 - And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss.

This star is Satan. That it says the star is "fallen out of heaven" means he was CAST down against his will.

That the star is a pertson rather than simply an nonliving object is proved by the pronoun "him".
to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss.

In addition to letting out of the abyss horrible demonic locusts to torment men,
Satan also summons up Antichrist who is their king from that same realm.

Revelation 9:11 - They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon; and in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

1.) The fallen star (Rev. 9:1) is the driven down from heaven Satan (Rev. 12:7,8).
2.) The angel of the abyss Abaddon / Appollyon is the antichrist.

The same matter, a driven down Satan summoning up a destroying beast from the abyss and the sea is seen in Revelation 12,13.

Do you understand that there is some repetition of themes in the book of Revelation ?

(Oh, your chart is however . . . interesting)

 

[Oseas]

How many of the house of Israel (Jacob) went into Egypt at the time of Jospeh? I think the number was around 70.

Four hundred years later, 600,000 men, not counting children, came out in the Exodus.

So I am not understanding the significance of your comparison... to the end times time, times, half time Satan will have left.
Oseas, you are attacking the poster instead of the content of the post. Your comment and similar comments that you make to others in this forum is inappropriate. Stay in your lane, and just address the content of the posts by others.

Redirect your energy into making some timeline charts of the events in Revelation 12, and other parts of Revelation. I use Corel paintshop pro as the program to make my charts. If you get it (available as a download from Amazon) and need some help let me know.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
What does the Word of GOD say? the Word is GOD, self-execcuting: 1 Timothy 4:1-2:

1 - Now the Spirit speaketh EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 - Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Luke 18:8 - Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Revelation 16:13-15
And I saw three unclean spirits like FROGS come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon(Re.13:11-18), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast(the Beast of sea-Re.13:1-10), and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet(false messiah-John 5:43-47). (a satanic trinity)

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty(the Lord's Day-Revelation 1:8 and 7- ,that is the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium)

15 Behold, I come as a thief.

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS? Revelation 16:v.13 to 16 1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which...

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2Co. 11:12-15
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The election of the last Pope - Will be his religious nickname Paulus VII?

The world press has just announced the death of Benedict XVI. The current Pope Francis is also on the brink of death. Then must be elected the last Pope, and he will be the husband No. 266 (excluding Peter Apostle) of the Great harlot, the Roman Catholic Church. By the way, would be his religious...

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My Lord JESUS said: Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the BUILDERS rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder-Mat.21:42-44.


-The Word is GOD, a devouring fire, and self-executable.
In Christ JESUS, King of kings (kings made by Him - Revelation 5:v.10- ), and LORD of lords

 

[oikonomia]

Just simply Matthew 28:19-20, is sufficient to debunk any ideas of a removal from the earth.

Why should Matt. 28:19-20 prove that there could be no catching away of watching Christians living in the Spirit
in the end times?

The Greek word parousia means presence. It is also tranlsated "coming".
If Christ is present (or coming) for vigilant believers HOW does that contradict that He will
be with us until the consummation of the age?

And how does it contradict the preaching of the gospel to all the world?
I don't see your "slam dunk" debunking of removal of overcoming disciples from the earth.

Ample Prophecy confirms the truth of our going to and living in all of the Holy Land, where we Christian peoples will be Gods witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:29 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
We are the peoples referred to as living peacefully, without defences. Ezekiel 38:8-12 When Gog and his vast army attack us, the Lord will destroy them, in order to show us and the world His power and glory. Ezekiel 39:21

I have no problem with God fulfilling promise to bring scattered Israelites back to the Holy Land.
But a promise to bring all Christians there ?

When Jesus says that the meek shall inherit the earth (Matt. 5:5) do you think that
only means the geographic Israel ?

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

When Revelation says He has made His people a kingdom which shall reign on the earth (Rev. 5:10), do you
think it only means the geographic Israel?

And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.

Do you believe the co-reigning overcomers who reign for 1,000 years (Rev. 20) are restricted to the geographic Israel?

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6)

I beleive that the sphere of their co-reigning with Christ will cover the whole earth.

For the earth will be filled / With the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah / As water covers the sea. (Hab. 2:14)

These Bible passages confirm the fact that the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is some time before His glorious Return. His people, righteous Israel, every faithful Christian who believes in God and keeps His Commandments, will live there in prosperity and peace. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15

I need time look up all the passages.

And I am probsbly going to gravitate more towards my OP.
That OP is not so much about Christ transferring people (any people) to the Holy Land.
That is an interesting topic in its own right.

But I need to defend that the cooperation of overcoming of the Lord's saints facilitates the events
which bring about the fall of Satan to be limited to activity only on the earth.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. (Rev. 12:12,13)

Isaiah 66:15-24 ...the Lord coming in fire [not on a cloud, in His glory, at this time],...bringing retribution in anger.
The Lord will judge with fire and sword and test all mankind. All those unclean and wicked will die.

I don't see why that should contradict His promise to catch away some ready, watching, living in the Spirit for a
pre-tribulation rapture.

I don't see how Isaiah 66:15-24 makes Matthew 24:40-42 untrue for those who obey the warning.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

I will gather peoples of every tongue- they: [all Christians] will see My glory. 2 Thessalonians 1:10....revealed to His own.
I shall put a sign on [some of] those survivors and will send them to declare My glory to all the nations. [before the Return –these are the 144,000, Rev 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19
From all the world, your fellow peoples will come, on every conveyance, like offerings to the Lord. Some will become My priests. Revelation 5:10

I see what you are saying.
I am going to however lean toward my OP subject matter more.

Can you see that the obedience and faith of Joshua and his army allowed the angels to fight on thier behalf?

Joshua 5:13,14a -
Now once, when Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked; and behold, there was a man standing opposite him, and His sword was drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, Are You for us or for our adversaries?

And He said, Neither, but as the Captain of Jehovah’s army have I now come.

Isn't it true that when Istael was obedient and believing God was with them for victory?
And when they were disbelieving and disobedient they suffered sore defeat?

Should such a principle not also be true for the new covenant age believers as well?
So throughout the ages the ministering spirits fight on behalf of God people when they are in faith and cooperation with His will.

His Christian people will rebuild the Temple and serve in it. 1 Peter 2:9, Rev. 11:1-2 The Shekinah Glory of God will be in it. Ezekiel 43:1-4

That physical temple in Jerusalem is a type of the reality of the house of God, the temple of God the church.
. . .
you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

1In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:19b-22)

And the house in First Peter 2:9 is a spiritual house for spiritual sacrifices.

Coming to Him, a living stone, rejected by men but with God chosen and precious,
You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Do not lose hope in some to overcome to be builded into a gloroius church.
This matter of a spiritual house and a spiritual good land is a huge subject.

But my leaning here is toward this more limited matter -

A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation​

And the many other verses which you labored on are imortant and fascinating.
But I do not see WHY they should contradict my OP or prove wrong the exhortation to WATCH.

Watch and be ready meaning living moment by moment in the Spirit, abiding in Him for His coming at ANY MOMENT.

Matt. 24:42 - Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
Matt. 24:44 - For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.

 

[oikonomia]

If that is what you intended, then I think you should go back to your post and edit it to say "clothed with" instead of "of".

I intend to do some clarification that when I find it.

Are you ready to address some specific questions I might ask you ?
And I will accept that you cannot answer one at this time as a legitimate response.

If so here is one:

In spiritual warfare do the angels usually fight for believing people of God or for disbelieving people of God?

Take as an example of what I mean the events of Jericho as compared to first Ai encounter.

Jerucho (Joshua 6:-27) being victory because of belief and obedience.
The first battle over Ai (Joshua 7:1-26) being defeat because of the sin of Israel (Achan's disobedience).

 

[Oseas]

A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation?​

What does the Word of GOD say? The prophetic Daniel 12:1-3 reveal the cause of great tribulation, among other terrible and wonderful events of this current time , time of the end, as follow:

List of terrible and wonderful events

- And at that time(at this current time)shall Michael stand up,the great Prince(Joshua 5:13-15)which standeth for the children of thy people:

- and there shall be a time of trouble(TRIBULATION)such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:(Mt.24:21:22.Get ready)

- and at that time(this current time)thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book.(Revelation 7:1-8 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:15-16 and Re. 14:14-20, about the archangel Michael)

- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake(Isaiah 26:19-21.Take a look. Hallelujaaaah!!!), some to everlasting life(a wonderful event), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (a terrible event).

- And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the STARS for ever and ever. (a wonderful event)


Daniel 12:10-13

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (Jesus' sacrifice has already lasted around 730,000 days,and now will be taken away), and the abomination that maketh desolate will set up(in the midst of the last week of years), and there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1.335. Hallelujaaah!!!

The Word is GOD, self-executing, from everlasting to everlasting .

 

[Douggg]

If the man-child is not caught up to heaven the good angels would not have the ground to drive Satan DOWN.

Michael and his angels actions will be what God tells them to do.

If Satan is not driven DOWN then there would not be the annoucement of WOE to the earth dwellers.
And the WOE has to do with Satan summoning up the Antichrist and his false prophet.

The announcement of the third woe coming shortly is by the mighty angel of Revelation 10 that stands on the earth and sea, speaking in Revelation 11:14

The third woe is stated in this verse...

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Nothing in that verse about Satan summoning up the Antichrist and the false prophet.

The 42 months of the beast-king's rule (Revelation 13:5) will begin slightly before Satan is cast down to earth.

You need to work on two things.
1. constructing a timeline chart of events in Revelation 12 and other events in Revelation which there has been a time frame given for.... like I have done above.
2. understanding the 5 stages to the person broadly called the Antichrist - that he goes through on the way to his destruction.

 

[Douggg]

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
What does the Word of GOD say? the Word is GOD, self-execcuting: 1 Timothy 4:1-2:

1 - Now the Spirit speaketh EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 - Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Oseas, you are attacking the poster. Just stick to the content of the discussion. The topic of this thread focuses on things written in Revelation 12.

Delete the above repeated self serving speech of yours. I am sure that other posters beside myself are tired of hearing it. Just stick to the topic of the thread.

 

[Douggg]

Are you ready to address some specific questions I might ask you ?
And I will accept that you cannot answer one at this time as a legitimate response.

If so here is one:

In spiritual warfare do the angels usually fight for believing people of God or for disbelieving people of God?

Take as an example of what I mean the events of Jericho as compared to first Ai encounter.

How about you answering the two questions I had asked you.

1. What event ends the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14?

2. Where in Revelation is the fulfillment of what Paul said in Romans11:25-26 that once the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled then all Israel shall be saved?

---------------------------------------------------------

As to your question, my response is.... obviously, the good angels are involved to the extent they are instructed to do so by the Lord on the side of believers. While the bad angels, it would be reasonable to think assist the wicked.

 

[oikonomia]

A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation?​

What does the Word of GOD say? The prophetic Daniel 12:1-3 reveal the cause of great tribulation, among other terrible and wonderful events of this current time , time of the end, as follow:

This can still be all true as Daniel says and the rapture of the stronger part of the body of saints trigger Michael and the good angels
to spring into action to war against Satan.

And at that time Michael, the great prince who stands for the children of your people, will arise; and there will be a time of distress, such as never occurred since there came to be a nation until that time; and at that time your people, every one found written in the book, will be delivered. (Dan. 12:1)

1.) I don't see how this prediction makes impossible to happen that at the rapture of the man-child the goos angels further limit Satan's
activity taking away his roaming and accusing in heaven to being restricted to act only on earth.

The two matters simply are not incompatible Oseas.
This would be like saying the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 makes Jesus being born in a manger in a stable (Luke 2:7) impossible.

The two events are NOT mutually exclusive.

2.) Daniel 12:2- And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt.

There is no reason reason why this happening around the same time of the epoch makes impossible the good angels
fighting as a result of the man-child being caught up to heaven and God's throne.

Caught up - And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5) . . .

Angelic war triggered - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. (v.7)

There is no reason why Daniel 12:2 should make Revelation 12:5-7 not possible.
The Apostle John in his vision simply is adding details more to the more general outline in Daniel.
That's all.

3.) Likewise this promises does not make the vision of Revelation 12 impossible to interpret as I have.

And those who have insight will shine like the shining of the heavenly expanse, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars, forever and ever. (Dan. 12:3)

As amatter of fact Daniel's interpretation of the Nebuchadressor's dream in Daniel 2:35 very accurately reflects
Christ and His overcoming co-kings filling the earth with the kingdom of God.

Compare:

Daniel 2:35 - Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed all at once, and they became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Revelation 12:5 - And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

And we should know that as Christ shepherds the nations with a iron rod (Rev. 19:15) so also He grants some overcomers
to join Him in this (Rev. 2:27)

- and there shall be a time of trouble(TRIBULATION)such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:(Mt.24:21:22.Get ready)

That there is a time of tribulation following the rapture of the man-child perfectly confirms this.

Rev. 12:11,12-
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

Did you get that? . . . the devil has come down to you and has great rage,

And WHY was he forced to "come down"?
He was forced to go down because at the rapture of the man-child the good serving angels drove him out of heavenly realms.
The overcoming humans being raptured there causes there to be no more place for Satan to visit there and accuse.

Rev. 12:7,8 -
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.
And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.


SO THEN . . . as we interpret the visions of Revelation 12 no harm whatsoever is done to the other truths Matt. 24:21-22.

And indeed for the living ones they are exhorted to be ready for a rapture.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (v.42)

Now here is some clarification:
Matthew 24 speaks to the disciples according to TWO statuses they had.
1.) The status as national Israelites awaiting the last things.
2.) The status as members of the church awaiting last things.

Some of the predictions speaks to them by thier national status (verses 1 - 31).
This is followed by predictions which speak to them as the church (verses 32 - 25:30)

So if this is not grasped you will be confused, Some of the talk is about things like Daniel predicted concerning national Israel.
And some of the things are about previously unrevealed truths concerning Christ coming for the church.

The dividing line is in verses 31 and 32 which I put together for your help.

Verse 31 - And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His chosen together from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other end.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verse 32 - But learn the parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch has become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near.

Let me repeat. First Jesus speaks to those disciples according to their status as national Israelites.
Then He speaks to them according to their status as members of the church.

They have BOTH statuses -
1.) awaiting the fulfillment of prophecy as Daniel promised of the nation Israel,
2.) Awaiting newly reveal prophecy as constituents of the new covenant church.

1.) A bosterious public manifestation in glory to Israel is in the first section:

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (24:29,30)

2.) A secretive sudden unexpected rapture to the third heavens to watch for is in the second section:

Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (vs. 41,42)

If you do not see these two aspects you WILL be confused about Matthew 24's prophecies.

- and at that time(this current time)thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book.(Revelation 7:1-8 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:15-16 and Re. 14:14-20, about the archangel Michael)

Remember what I just explained.
In Matthew 24 we have Jesus speaking to His disciples according to TWO statuses they have, not one.
He does not JUST speak to them as Isrealites in conjunction with OT prophecy in Daniel.
He does that but He ALSO speals to them in previously un-revealed terms. That is as theit other status
as members of the new covenant church.

The tendency of you and some other posters is to only see the talk of Jesus in Matthew 24 along the lines
of Daniel's predictions to Israel.

TRY IT. Read verses up to 31 in light of the twelve disciples as Israelites.
Then read verses 32 through Matt, 25:30 in the light of thesesame men as members of the new covenant church.

Now FirstThess. 4:15-16 is a end of great tribulation event.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep;

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

What I think most of us miss is that this is the taking of "we who are living, WHO ARE LEFT REMAINING."
Consider that some remnant of watching ones were living and already taken.
Then the ones left are those who are living WHO ARE LEFT REMAINING.

This would be consistent with SOME heeding the warning to LIVE daily in the Spirit ready and watching being rewarded
and some being left to have to learn a hard lesson through the GT to be taken afterwards.

The pairs of TWO in the warning are pairs of TWO Christian believers - ("your Lord comes"). Otherwise WHY would the Lord warn to watch and be ready for something automatic and inevitable? Being taken is conditional upon having developed the habit of livng in His presence.

Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:41,42)

 

[oikonomia]

How about you answering the two questions I had asked you.

Okay. I'll do my best.
Then follow through (with your comment).

1. What event ends the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14?

There are a number of things I might say are events that END the time, times and half a time.
For now I wlll submit that the seventh BOWL which is part of the negative contents of the seventh trumpet ends that epoch.

And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, It is done.
And there were lightnings and voices and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as had not been since man appeared on the earth, such an earthquake, so great. (Revelation 16:17,18)

For now I would say the voice from the throne saying "It is done" at the emptying of the seventh bowl of God's wrath means the end
of that epoch of tribulation.

However I would not consider it wrong to mention other associated events.
For example Armageddon or something of the Lord's vanguishing victory over His enemies led by the beasts.

2. Where in Revelation is the fulfillment of what Paul said in Romans11:25-26 that once the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled then all Israel shall be saved?

I beleive that in chapter one John quotes the prophecy of the tribes of the land seeing the one whom they pierced and repenting with wailing and belief,

Compare:
Revelation 1:7 - Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen.

Zech. 12:10-12a- And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son.

I think generally speaking this is about national Israel (not individual Jews) finally recognizing that this Jesus the crucified and raised Son of God is their delivering Messiah. He now comes on the glorious clouds of heaven right over the Holy Land.

Now your turn ?

 

[oikonomia]

Now your turn Douggg?

 

[oikonomia]

"Michael and his angels actions will be what God tells them to do." - Douggg

Did I say the opposite ??
How about God tells them to wage war against Satan and his angels BECAUSE the man-child has been raptured and REQUESTS that of God ?

Thus says Jehovah, / The Holy One of Israel and the One who formed him, / Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, / And concerning the work of My hands, command Me. (Isaiah 45:11)

Truly I say to you that whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and cast into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says happens, he will have it. (Matk 11:23)

You know little of commanding prayer and spiritual warfare ??

 

[Douggg]

1. What event ends the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14?

Now your turn ?

My answer is Jesus's return, because the time, times, half time in Revelation 12 is the short amount of time Satan will have left once he and his angels are cast down to earth. When Jesus returns, in Revelation 20, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit.

Douggg said:
2. Where in Revelation is the fulfillment of what Paul said in Romans11:25-26 that once the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled then all Israel shall be saved?

I think that is what Revelation 12 is about - i.e. when the Jews making up the nation of Israel will be saved. Which will be in the middle part of the 7 years, after a misadventure of them thinking the Antichrist was their messiah for most of the 1260 days of the first half of the 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

How about God tells them to wage war against Satan and his angels BECAUSE the man-child has been raptured and REQUESTS that of God ?

They wage war against Satan and his angels, as the seventh angel sounding is their signal from God to do so.

Revelation 10:7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Everything you read in the bible is about the mystery of God - which is God's plan to undo all the damage done to creation by Satan and his angels. And to redeem mankind. And to restore the earth.

Always try to keep that in your mind - to have a perspective of things. And keep reminding yourself, as I have to do myself. Hey, you are one of the blessed ones - there are billions of people on earth, but how many actually devote themselves to that pursuit, or even think about it.

 

[oikonomia]

My answer is Jesus's return, because the time, times, half time in Revelation 12 is the short amount of time Satan will have left once he and his angels are cast down to earth. When Jesus returns, in Revelation 20, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit.

You must see that in the warfare between God and Satan, Satan undergoes successive stages of more and more limitation.
Down . . . down . . . down .... down . . . and finally into the eternal fire prepared for him and his angels.

1.) In heaven all the time TO
2.) Being limited to only visit heaven to accuser before God TO
3.) being permenanttly expelled even from that function TO
4.) limitation to the surface of the earth only for a short time TO
5.) shut up for 1,000 years in the prison of the bottomless pit TO
6,) his final destination the lake of fire.

You see each stage is a strategic set back to Satan
And the asistance of the church's servants the ministering spirits is in conjunction with God commands.
And He commands in response to the spiritual well being and overcoming of the saints requesting He do so.

John 15:7 is a great promise as an example - If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.