A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[oikonomia]

The church did not give birth to Jesus. Instead, Jesus built the church, Matthew 16:15-19.

This post was addressed not to me but to Keras. But I will comment.
Matthew 16:15-19 is Christ's promise that He WILL build the church.

That process is not completed and is still on going . . . "you also are BEING built together".

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:20-22)

The principle that some overcome before others do demonstrates that though all are builded in some are late.

Certainly the collective man-child- are overcomers who are of the church and have matured to be fully builded together.
And "the rest of her seed" who were not raptured are not by then fully buided together.
The preasure of the great tribulation will be a strong incentive for them to leave degraded religion TO BE fully matured
and built together in oneness. It is by then a matter of life and death.

Building is a matter of the growth of Christ's life within for our transformation.
The GROWTH of Christ's life within is the BUILDING up as God's house.

This is prove demonstrated in First Corinthians chapter three where "God's farm" is the same as "God's building."

1.) The apostles plant and water the seed of divine life in Christ so that God may cause Christ to GROW in man.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.
So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth. ( 1 Cor. 3:6,7)

2.) The growing of Christ in man BUILDS us together into the organic living house of God, the church.

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s cultivated land [or farm], God’s building. (v.9)

In other words in Corinth and in other cities where believers are, to GROW as plants on God's farm
must result in them being transformed into God's building. Christ is the not only the foundation of the church.
Christ imparted into man, transforming man, is the building material for the church.

So up until the last days of this church age, some, a majority still are immature. They are on the foundation but not
transformed into building stones and fully built together. They will pass through the GT not having been raptured out.

The Lord said and WILL finally succeed - "I will build My church."
The FOUNDING of the church is completed.
The BUILDING of the church is still proceeding with much hampering degradation and retardation in the majority.

The description of the woman in Revelation 12:1 does not fit that of the church, but Israel.

The details of the Woman indicates elect Jews who are preserved to become Christians and regenerated constituents of the church.
If one is not convinced that the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize this, the details of her persecution should.

Why? Because from a corporate standpoint the persecuted woman on earth is one person.
But from another angle she is equal to the phrase "the rest of her seed."

In other words she is "the rest of her seed." Corporately she is one persecuted woman. Constituent wise she is "the rest of her seed."

Compare:
Revelation 12:13 - And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child.
Revelation 12:17a - And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, . . .

Her seed as the man-child was raptured.
The rest of her seed is that portion of her left on earth persecuted during the GT.

"The rest of her seed" left on earth to be persecuted is of two parts joined by the conjunction "AND".

. . . the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus.

1.) Jews of the twelve tribes of Israel who are by then still the commandments keepers. They will are preserved to eventually be the repented believers in Messiah. (Rev. 7:1-8)

2.) Those who are of the new covenant church having "the testimony of Jesus."

Revelaiton 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:11 does not prove that verse 10 refers to " the church". The Jews will have become believers in Jesus and the gospel of salvation, but they are not the church. The Jews who become martyrs in Revelation 12:11 are part of the great tribulation saints.

Revelation 7:1-8 shows that THROUGH the great tribulation 144,000 protected and preserved Jews from each of the
twelve tribes of Israel are SEALED with a protective seal. Though they be not believers in the One coming on the clouds in glory
over the holy land, they are PRESERVED through the GT time.

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree.

And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,

Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:1-3)

THESE make up those "who keep the commandments of God."
The Christians constituted "who have the testimony of Jesus."

Revelation 13:
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

It should be remembered that Antichrist will oppose ALL monotheistic faith.
He will persecute all that is called God. So monotheistic Israelites who keep [though not successfully] "the commandments of God" are under attack. . . AND monotheistic churching Christians are also under Antichrist's attack.
. . .
the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship,
so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3,4)

Jews as Israel who only at the last moment repent to believe in the dramatically descending Christ are preserved with a seal until this moment.

Revelation 1:7 - Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen. (See Zechariah 12:10)

"ALL THE TRIBES OF THE LAND" of Israel is I believe the proper meaning.

This is logical because Christ coming down to earth must be over a specific geographical area of the earth.
The tribes of the land of Israel will see Hinm descend who previously and mysteriously raptured OUT of the earth
some Christians who were WATCHING for His pre- GT rapture.

They were overcomers built into His living house as forerunners of normality.
They as a matured minority had been kept from the hour of world-wide trial (Rev. 3:10).

 

[oikonomia]

I responded to your questions in my post #108.

I read this and understood what you were saying.
I think one question was addressed and some points made.

I think this fleeing to the wilderness of the "the rest of her seed" is probably all that in that time meant wilderness
in terms of the then Roman Empire.

I suspect that wold include refugees from Antichrist's realm of political power to
what at that time considered the undiscovered globe.

Just some area in the Holy Land is a respectable viewpoint.
I think "all the world" in which the gospel has spread, would include all of the then unknown parts of the planet
by the then existing Roman Empire.

 

[Douggg]

I never said she was.

This is what you typed in your post #110...

"I would not teach that ONLY Mary is that mother or ONLY Israel is the mother.
I would teach that that mother of the sun, moon, aqnd stars represents the totality of ALL of God's elect on earth in history."

 

[Douggg]

the collective man-child- are overcomers who are of the church

The details of the Woman indicates elect Jews who are preserved to become Christians and regenerated constituents of the church.

So to you....
the man child - are overcomers who are of the church.
the woman - is elect Jews who are Christians

Putting those together, your logic appears to be the woman (elect Christian Jews) gave birth to the man-child (overcomers of the church).

That disagrees that it is Jesus who builds his church, based on the foundation that Jesus is the Son of God.

The woman is Israel
The man-child is Jesus

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Romans 11:25-26. Paul said once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, all Israel shall be saved.

Where in Revelation are you finding fulfillment of what Paul said?

 

[Douggg]

I think this fleeing to the wilderness of the "the rest of her seed" is probably all that in that time meant wilderness
in terms of the then Roman Empire.

The rest of her seed in Revelation 12:17 did not flee into wilderness. And therefore will be vulnerable to persecution by Satan.

What event ends the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14 ?

 

[keras]

The description of the woman in Revelation 12:1 does not fit that of the church, but Israel.

Yes, that is because it was Israel who did give birth to the 'man child'. Via Mary.

Revelation 12:11 does not prove that verse 10 refers to " the church". The Jews will have become believers in Jesus and the gospel of salvation, but they are not the church.

Those who Overcome by the blood of the Lamb, can only be Christians. Therefore: Rev 12:11 must refer to the Church; unless you want to exclude yourself.

But as have pointed out many times and you seem incapable of comprehending; the Jews, as a nation, will not be there. Only a remnant of Messianic Jews will be a part of the new Christian peoples in the Holy Land during the end times. Ezekiel 21:1-17 and many other Prophesies. prove this.

 

[keras]

No, the woman represents not Israel, by no manner of means.

Genesis 37:9 proves that Revelation 12:1 does represent Israel. That is: the descendants of Abraham and Jesus is the seed which came from Israel.

You should tone down your forceful manner and be a lot more careful about what you promote.

 

[keras]

This post was addressed not to me but to Keras. But I will comment.
Matthew 16:15-19 is Christ's promise that He WILL build the church.

That process is not completed and is still on going . . . "you also are BEING built together".

I generally agree with your post #121.

"ALL THE TRIBES OF THE LAND" of Israel is I believe the proper meaning.

This is logical because Christ coming down to earth must be over a specific geographical area of the earth.
The tribes of the land of Israel will see Hinm descend who previously and mysteriously raptured OUT of the earth
some Christians who were WATCHING for His pre- GT raptur

It is when you, and others think that the present Jewish State of Israel will be the people who will be in the Holy Land during the end times, that I and the Bible Prophets; disagree. The false 'rapture to heaven' theory, as well.

It is possible for you to at least consider how we Christians who - Called upon the Name of the Lord during the terrible Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and then will travel to the cleared and cleansed Holy Land, Jeremiah 12:14, as so graphically described in Psalms 107? ......Let the wise consider these things....... Psalms 107:43

We Christians will go to live in all of that area given to Abraham and to his descendants, Genesis 15:18, the Lord will stand on Mount Zion, dividing us into 12 tribes, named after Jacobs sons, Revelation 14:1, and will; select 12,000 from each tribe to go around the world proclaiming the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

 

[Douggg]

Those who Overcome by the blood of the Lamb, can only be Christians. Therefore: Rev 12:11 must refer to the Church; unless you want to exclude yourself.

"Christians" is a term that correlates with the church. The woman is Israel which the Jews correlates with Israel.

Them in Revelation 12:10-11 are the Jews, Israel, who become believers in Jesus and the gospel of salvation. They are not called the church in Revelation 12.

Them in Revelation 12:10-11 are great tribulation saints, i.e. them who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation time period.

------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 12:10-11 speaks of the fulfillment of what Paul said in Romans 11:25-26 of when all Israel shall be saved.

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[oikonomia]

This is what you typed in your post #110...

"I would not teach that ONLY Mary is that mother or ONLY Israel is the mother.
I would teach that that mother of the sun, moon, aqnd stars represents the totality of ALL of God's elect on earth in history."

The mother of the sun, moon, and stars there means clothed or illuminated upon by the sun, moon, and stars.

 

[Douggg]

The mother of the sun, moon, and stars there means clothed or illuminated upon by the sun, moon, and stars.

If that is what you intended, then I think you should go back to your post and edit it to say "clothed with" instead of "of".

 

[Douggg]

The rapture/resurrection event does not "cause" the great tribulation. Nor does the rapture/resurrection event "trigger" the beginning of the great tribulation.

What triggers the beginning of the great tribulation time period of 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12) is the setting up of the abomination of desolation on the temple mount (Matthew 24:15-21).

Great tribulation for the 1335 days will be because of the wrath of God in the vials, and the judgements of God in the trumpets, and persecution by the beast-king, and the false prophet, and Satan, and their followers - taking place during the time period called the great tribulation.

 

[oikonomia]

I generally agree with your post #121.

Interesting.

It is when you, and others think that the present Jewish State of Israel will be the people who will be in the Holy Land during the end times, that I and the Bible Prophets; disagree. The false 'rapture to heaven' theory, as well.

To simply assert that a rapture is a false teaching does nothing for me.
Simply asserting "It is false because it is false because it is FALSE" doesn't impress me.

You have to do better than that if you want me to consider your case that it is a false hope.

Furthermore, I do not intend to defend what I myself do not believe.
So I would have to know precisely what it is you say is a false theory.

Maybe the rapture that you say is a false theory is not the rapture in which I believe.

It is possible for you to at least consider how we Christians who - Called upon the Name of the Lord during the terrible Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and then will travel to the cleared and cleansed Holy Land, Jeremiah 12:14, as so graphically described in Psalms 107? ......Let the wise consider these things....... Psalms 107:43

I do consider that people will call upon the name of the Lord during the GT.
That they all go to the Holy Land to live I have never considered.

But I have long loved Psalm 107 which common thread running through is that
people in trouble may CALL upon the name of God and be saved, delivered, and helped by God.

Looking at Psalm 107 I see -
Verses 1 - 8 God mercifully brought [past tense] some lost people to a land and city.
Verses 10 - 14 God mercifully liberated [past tense] from a dark place of death those who had rebelled.
Verses 17 - 20 God mercifully delivered[past tense] from destress some others.
Verses 23 - 30 God mercifully saved [past tense] from a stormy sea.

Interspersed between these records deliverance are praises and thanks offered to God.
And the remaining portion speaks of His ability to transform the lifeless earth into fruitfullness, etc.
And He rebukes prinices, humbles the proud, and uplifts the oppressed.

Okay this is indeed wonderful. And the conclusion of the Psalm is -
Psalm 107:43 - Who is wise? Then let him observe these things / And consider the lovingkindness of Jehovah.

I'll make you a deal. I will consider this Psalm with musings on how it could relate to end times and what you say.
But YOU I ask to do the same with Psalm 18.

Tell me of Psalm 18 is similarly plausible that it may mean saints are raptured and equiped to fight
and return to do so.

We Christians will go to live in all of that area given to Abraham and to his descendants, Genesis 15:18, the Lord will stand on Mount Zion, dividing us into 12 tribes, named after Jacobs sons, Revelation 14:1, and will; select 12,000 from each tribe to go around the world proclaiming the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

I understand what you are saying and will contemplate on it.

 

[oikonomia]

The rapture/resurrection event does not "cause" the great tribulation. Nor does the rapture/resurrection event "trigger" the beginning of the great tribulation.

I disagree.

Prophecy ALONE is not the total cause.
Jeremiah prophesied that the Israelites would return from Babylon after 70 years.
Daniel read and understood the promises and COOPERATED with God with godly prayers three times a day.

God's prediction is certainly a cause.
The people of God's COOPERATION is another part of the cause.

It is interesting that with the exception who do not account the rapture of a person of any type in Revelation 12
those who DO see a rapture SHOULD also see that whoever that is, as a result Satan is driven down and summons up
Antichirst.

That is simply the sequence of events. So I think the OP stands in the affirmative.

A Rapture . . . Causes the Great Tribulation​

 

[Douggg]

I disagree.

Prophecy ALONE is not the total cause.
Jeremiah prophesied that the Israelites would return from Babylon after 70 years.
Daniel read and understood the promises and COOPERATED with God with godly prayers three times a day.

God's prediction is certainly a cause.
The people of God's COOPERATION is another part of the cause.

It is interesting that with the exception who do not account the rapture of a person of any type in Revelation 12
those who DO see a rapture SHOULD also see that whoever that is, as a result Satan is driven down and summons up
Antichirst.

That is simply the sequence of events. So I think the OP stands in the affirmative.

A Rapture . . . Causes the Great Tribulation​

Informing (prophecy) is not the cause of the great tribulation either.

The cause of the great tribulation is God by His judgments and wrath carried out, and on the opposite site, the persecutions by the beast-king, the false-prophet, Satan, and their followers.

It is interesting that with the exception who do not account the rapture of a person of any type in Revelation 12
those who DO see a rapture SHOULD also see that whoever that is, as a result Satan is driven down and summons up
Antichirst.

You are not communicating clearly. Reword what you mean.

 

[keras]

Christians" is a term that correlates with the church. The woman is Israel which the Jews correlates with Israel.

The established Church is a manmade construct, buildings and denominations.
The true church consists of every faithful Christian believer, keepers of the Commandments. Peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. This actually cuts out a huge swath of Church goers.

The 'woman' represents ethnic Israel, from which came the One Seed, Jesus. The rest of Israel, people from all the 12 tribes, are just part of the world and unless each individual accepts Jesus as their saviour, they are as lost as every other heathen.

Them in Revelation 12:10-11 are great tribulation saints, i.e. them who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation time period.

The Great Trib, of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will have just commenced. That is triggered by Satan, having been thrown to the earth, taking over the leader of the One World Govt and declaring himself to be God in the new Temple.

Revelation 12:10-11 speaks of the fulfillment of what Paul said in Romans 11:25-26 of when all Israel shall be saved.

Partially, yes. As long as you don't have the mistaken idea that all Israel is just the Jews.

 

[keras]

To simply assert that a rapture is a false teaching does nothing for me.
Simply asserting "It is false because it is false because it is FALSE" doesn't impress me.

You have to do better than that if you want me to consider your case that it is a false hope.

Just simply Matthew 28:19-20, is sufficient to debunk any ideas of a removal from the earth.

I do consider that people will call upon the name of the Lord during the GT.
That they all go to the Holy Land to live I have never considered.

Ample Prophecy confirms the truth of our going to and living in all of the Holy Land, where we Christian peoples will be Gods witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:29 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
We are the peoples referred to as living peacefully, without defences. Ezekiel 38:8-12 When Gog and his vast army attack us, the Lord will destroy them, in order to show us and the world His power and glory. Ezekiel 39:21

But I have long loved Psalm 107 which common thread running through is that
people in trouble may CALL upon the name of God and be saved, delivered, and helped by God.

Why must you allegorize a narrative of actual events, a story about what will happen, told before it does!
I have over 60 Bible based articles on the gathering of the Lords peoples into the Holy Land. Here is one:

These Bible passages confirm the fact that the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is some time before His glorious Return. His people, righteous Israel, every faithful Christian who believes in God and keeps His Commandments, will live there in prosperity and peace. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15

Isaiah 66:15-24 ...the Lord coming in fire [not on a cloud, in His glory, at this time],...bringing retribution in anger.
The Lord will judge with fire and sword and test all mankind. All those unclean and wicked will die.

I will gather peoples of every tongue- they: [all Christians] will see My glory. 2 Thessalonians 1:10....revealed to His own.
I shall put a sign on [some of] those survivors and will send them to declare My glory to all the nations. [before the Return –these are the 144,000, Rev 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19
From all the world, your fellow peoples will come, on every conveyance, like offerings to the Lord. Some will become My priests. Revelation 5:10

His Christian people will rebuild the Temple and serve in it. 1 Peter 2:9, Rev. 11:1-2 The Shekinah Glory of God will be in it. Ezekiel 43:1-4

As the New heavens and New earth that I am making will endure, so will your posterity endure. This will happen at the end of the Millennium, Revelation 21:1-7
All mankind will come to bow before Me. They will see what happened to those who rebelled against Me. This will happen during the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16

Jeremiah 30:3 ...both Israel and Judah will return to the Land. A remnant; only as faithful Christians. But, first the Land is cleared and cleansed:
Jeremiah 30:4-11 The Lord says to Israel and Judah, “How awful is that Day, a cry of terror, anguish for Jacob. [His people, their faith tested.. Psalms 30:4-5, Eze 21:7

On that Day, I will save My people. [the terrible Day of the Lord/the sixth seal, coronal mass ejection from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Isaiah 32:15-20
Do not despair, [faithful] Israel, I will bring you back safely from afar. Isaiah 51:3

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will sharpen My flashing sword and take vengeance on those who hate Me. Rejoice, you heavens, He will avenge His people and cleanse their Land . Ref: REB some verses abridged.

There is a wonderful logic in the promise that those people who love the Lord will live in the Promised Land and all those prophecies to His holy people will be fulfilled. They will settle there and be “a light to all nations” as God originally intended.

Isaiah 60:3.... over you, His glory will appear and nations will travel to your light.

Very soon, there will be worldwide, dramatic events, especially in the Middle East, which will completely change the area. The Lord’s faithful people will go to live in all of the holy Land.

When the Lord Jesus returns, He will save those people from the attacking armies of the Anti Christ. The sudden and complete destruction of those armies as described in
Rev. 19:17-21, does not match the Sixth Seal : Rev 6:12-17, or the many other verses describing the Lord’s Day of wrath and vengeance. Amos 5:18-20, Joel 2:11

Then those Gentile people who have refused the “mark of the beast” will join them, Matthew 24:31, and live in the Land, Isaiah 56:8, under King Jesus, for 1000 years.

 

[Douggg]

Partially, yes. As long as you don't have the mistaken idea that all Israel is just the Jews.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That place prepared of God is the land of Israel. Prepared of God, because of what God said he will do in Ezekiel 37:19-21.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

I think the present population in Israel is not going change much before Gog/Magog takes place, followed by the beginning of the 1260 days.

 

[keras]

That place prepared of God is the land of Israel

The place of safety, as Prophesied in Revelation 12:14, cannot be in the Holy Land.
The Anti-Christ 'beast' conquers Jerusalem and sits in the Temple at that time; the mid point of the final 7 years. Zechariah 14:1-2

I think the present population in Israel is not going change much before Gog/Magog takes place, followed by the beginning of the 1260 days.

This shows a complete lack of understanding, or even reading of the many Prophesies that tell of how the House of Judah, the Jews, will be Judged and punished. Only a remnant will survive. Jeremiah 18:11-23

 

[Oseas]

What is the connection you are making between 1 and 2 ? The word "red"?

- No conection, but a comparison. How many of GOD's people got out from Egypt and crossed the red Sea, to heir the Promised Land? Exodus 12:37 gives us a clue. Take a look and make a calculation.

And now, in the time of the Apocalypse: How many of GOD's people will fight against the red Dragon and his messengers, which deceiveth the whole world?-Re.12:9- and so they be WORTHY to reach the world to come which will be established even now, from now on, I mean the Kingdom of GOD, as said my Lord JESUS?-Luke 20:35-36 .
And how many will overcome the red Dragon by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of their testimony? And they will not love their lives unto the death, understand? Re.12:11

The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(ruled by the red Dragon)are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ (understand?); and He shall reign for ever and ever-Re.11:15 combined with Matthew 5:5 and Re.5:10, and Mat.28:18.

It's impressive, it seems your lamp gone out, or you are still sleeping soundly. No surprise. It's midnight, but some minutes have already past in GOD's watch, actually, we are in the TURN from the sixth to the seventh GOD's Day, the LORD''s Day, and one Day is with the Lord as a 1000 years, understand? 2 Peter 3:8

And how does a person pass through a Dragon ? By being eaten by the Dragon, digested, and coming out the other end ?

According to your interpretations of the Scriptures as exposed by you above, and also to your ridiculous conceptions , you have probably already been swallowed by the red Dragon, which deceiveth the whole world. Terrible