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Is this the hardest teaching of Jesus as it relates to Salvation?

Is this the hardest teaching of Jesus as it relates to Salvation?

  • Yes

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  • No

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  • I am not sure

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John Mullally

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Actually, just one small point here. I do not know of any place in the Bible where the term "free will" is used. Please show me where you find it.
Refer to my Post 34. Not all translations use the term "free will" in the instances I identified in the NASB, but synonymous terms like voluntary, not forced, of your own accord, willingly, etc.

This is from C. S. Lewis in the Case for Christianity:

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.​
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”​
 
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bbbbbbb

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Refer to my Post 34. Not all translations use the term "free will" in the instances I identified in the NASB, but synonymous terms like voluntary, not forced, of your own accord, willingly, etc.

This is from C. S. Lewis in the Case for Christianity:

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.​
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”​
Thank you. We are in agreement then that "free will" is not a term found in the Bible, except in some very loose translations.

The problem with that term is that it can be defined in a wide range of ways, as follows:

1. Total and utter ability to determine and decide for oneself without any prior or existing constraints or other impediments.
2. The ability to make decisions for oneself with the understanding that there are limits such as intelligence, cultural conditioning, etc. which will ultimately affect that choice.
3. The ability to make certain decisions, such as deciding what to eat for breakfast, given various option available, but the inability to make decisions for which one may be quite ignorant, such as deciding to tattoo oneself according to Maori religious traditions.

Which of these three do you think constitutes "free will"?
 
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BBAS 64

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Thank you. We are in agreement then that "free will" is not a term found in the Bible, except in some very loose translations.

The problem with that term is that it can be defined in a wide range of ways, as follows:

1. Total and utter ability to determine and decide for oneself without any prior or existing constraints or other impediments.
2. The ability to make decisions for oneself with the understanding that there are limits such as intelligence, cultural conditioning, etc. which will ultimately affect that choice.
3. The ability to make certain decisions, such as deciding what to eat for breakfast, given various option available, but the inability to make decisions for which one may be quite ignorant, such as deciding to tattoo oneself according to Maori religious traditions.

Which of these three do you think constitutes "free will"?


Good day, bbbbb

Johnathan Edwards the greatest Theologian América ever produced defines in part will:

You may think that there is no great need to take trouble to define or describe the will, because the word ‘will’ is generally as well understood as any other words we might use to explain it. You would be right if it weren’t for the fact that scientists, philosophers, and polemical preachers have thrown the will into darkness by the things they have said about it. But that is the fact; so I think it may be of some use, and will increase my chances of being clear throughout this book, if I say a few things concerning it. Well, then: setting aside metaphysical subtleties, the will is that by which the mind chooses anything. The •faculty of the will is the power of, or source in, the mind by which it is capable of choosing; an •act of the will is an act of choosing or choice. If you think the will is better defined by saying that it is that by which the soul either chooses or refuses, I’ll settle for that; though I don’t think we need to add ‘or refuses’, for in every act of will the mind chooses one thing rather than another; it chooses something rather than the absence or non-existence of that thing. So in every act of •refusal the mind •chooses the absence of the thing refused, so that refusing is just a special case of choosing. . . . So that whatever names we give to the act of the will— ‘choosing’, ‘refusing’, ‘approving’, ‘disapproving’, ‘liking’, ‘disliking’, ‘embracing’, ‘rejecting’, ‘determining’, ‘directing’, ‘commanding’, ‘forbidding’, ‘inclining’, ‘being averse to’, ‘being pleased with’, ‘being displeased with’ —they all come down to choosing. . . . Locke says: ‘The will signifies nothing but a power or ability to prefer or choose.


In Him

Bill
 
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Clare73

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The same greek word is used in both Roman 5:18 instances translated as "all men" in the NKJV.
My suggestion is not about the phrase but about the two Adam's to which the phrase refers; i.e., "all men" in Adam and "all men" in Christ in Ro 5:18-19.
 
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John Mullally

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Thank you. We are in agreement then that "free will" is not a term found in the Bible, except in some very loose translations.

The problem with that term is that it can be defined in a wide range of ways, as follows:
We don't agree. The Bible was not written in English. There are many phrases translated to terms synonymous to "free will" throughout the bible.
1. Total and utter ability to determine and decide for oneself without any prior or existing constraints or other impediments.
2. The ability to make decisions for oneself with the understanding that there are limits such as intelligence, cultural conditioning, etc. which will ultimately affect that choice.
3. The ability to make certain decisions, such as deciding what to eat for breakfast, given various option available, but the inability to make decisions for which one may be quite ignorant, such as deciding to tattoo oneself according to Maori religious traditions.

Which of these three do you think constitutes "free will"?
Two is close. Although our decisions are impacted by external circumstances, they are largely impacted by how we choose to reflect on those circumstances.

Paul would likely not have chosen to come to Christ, aside from Christ’s visible encounter along the road to Damascus, though even that is still speculation, just as anti-Christians do sometimes convert to Christianity without major revelations of God. Some even have a death-bed conversion. Clearly, God was not going to wait that long since He intended to call him to evangelism. Nonetheless, two facts remain: (a) God didn’t make Paul positively respond to His orders, and (b) others in similar circumstances chose not to act positively to God’s orders, such as Balaam and Jonah. Paul still had his own choice to make while he was blinded for three days. He could have chosen to harden his heart, like with Jonah and Balaam. It is question-begging to suppose that since Paul made the right choice, that his choice must have been made for him.
 
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BBAS 64

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We don't agree. The Bible was not written in English. There are many phrase translated to terms synonymous to "free will" throughout the bible.

Two is close. Our decisions are impacted by circumstances largely by how we choose to reflect on them.

Indeed, Paul would likely not have chosen to come to Christ, aside from Christ’s visible encounter along the road to Damascus, though even that is still speculation, just as anti-Christians do sometimes convert to Christianity without major revelations of God. Some even have a death-bed conversion. Clearly, God was not going to wait that long since He intended to call him to evangelism. Nonetheless, two facts remain: (a) God didn’t make Paul positively respond to His orders, and (b) others in similar circumstances chose not to act positively to God’s orders, such as Balaam and Jonah. Paul still had his own choice to make while he was blinded for three days. He could have chosen to harden his heart, like with Jonah and Balaam. It is question-begging to suppose that since Paul made the right choice, that his choice must have been made for him.
Good day, John

Circumstances which we can not control, reflection happens in the mind, motives, desires of the heart, and past experiences.

I do not think anyone believes the choice was made for him (Paul)... Paul had the ability to choose.

So who believes Paul did not make a choice?

Jonah made a series of choices that God was not happy with. So God being in control of everything brought about ( with purposeful intention) events that would enable Jonah to make the choice that God wanted. In the end He finally did as God intended he did not like that reality.

Jonah free choose what God wanted, nothing wrong with that.

As you said God had a purpose and intention for Paul, and God know exactly what He needed to do and he was effective in bringing it about.

Unless of course God could fail... But I would ask why he learned he would?

Why did not God just respect and accept Jonah's first free will choice not to go Nineveh and come up with plan "B"?

Did God know that Jonah would not go, before God told him, or did God learn of Jonah's choice when Jonah made it?

In the end Jonah had a choice go or jump back in that water, he freely refused the water.

In Him,

Bill
 
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John Mullally

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Good day, John

Circumstances which we can not control, reflection happens in the mind, motives, desires of the heart, and past experiences.

I do not think anyone believes the choice was made for him (Paul)... Paul had the ability to choose.

So who believes Paul did not make a choice?
If Calvin and the Westminster Confession are correct, then God governs our will and actions, and predetermined every thing that happens even what choices we make. We cannot make choices that God has made for us.
Jonah made a series of choices that God was not happy with. So God being in control of everything brought about ( with purposeful intention) events that would enable Jonah to make the choice that God wanted. In the end He finally did as God intended he did not like that reality.

Jonah free choose what God wanted, nothing wrong with that.

As you said God had a purpose and intention for Paul, and God know exactly what He needed to do and he was effective in bringing it about.

Unless of course God could fail... But I would ask why he learned he would?
I recognize that God knows what we will do - as we see in Peter denying Christ. I am sure God was aware of what Paul's response would be when He confronted Paul on the Damascus road.

Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 show that God's will is not presently being done earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.
Why did not God just respect and accept Jonah's first free will choice not to go Nineveh and come up with plan "B"?

Did God know that Jonah would not go, before God told him, or did God learn of Jonah's choice when Jonah made it?

In the end Jonah had a choice go or jump back in that water, he freely refused the water.

In Him,

Bill
God uses the story of Jonah's as a lesson for us. That doesn't mean that God preferred that Jonah initially resist.
 
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Clare73

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If Calvin and the Westminster Confession are correct, then God governs our will and actions, and predetermined every thing that happens even what choices we make. We cannot make choices that God has made for us.
Oh, but we can make choices when God puts us in situations that move us to freely choose, as seen throughout Scripture.

Your God is too small.
I recognize that God knows what we will do - as we see in Peter denying Christ. I am sure God was aware of what Paul's response would be when He confronted Paul on the Damascus road.

Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 show that God's will is not presently being done earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

God uses the story of Jonah's as a lesson for us. That doesn't mean that God preferred that Jonah initially resist.
 
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John Mullally

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If Calvin and the Westminster Confession are correct, then God governs our will and actions, and predetermined every thing that happens even what choices we make. We cannot make choices that God has made for us.
Oh, but we can make choices when God puts us in situations that move us to freely choose, as seen throughout Scripture.
I agree we freely choose as seen throughout scripture.

I do not agree with much from Calvin and the Westminster Confession.
  1. I find no scripture passage that supports that God decreed from all eternity everything that comes to pass (Westminster Confession), which would include our choices.
  2. Its an oxymoron to say that I can freely choose, when someone else made all my choices from all eternity.
 
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I agree we freely choose as seen throughout scripture.

I do not agree with much from Calvin and the Westminster Confession.
  1. I find no scripture passage that supports that God decreed from all eternity everything that comes to pass (Westminster Confession), which would include our choices.
  2. Its an oxymoron to say that I can freely choose, when someone else made all my choices from all eternity.
Good day, John

I can see that certainly you historically (post Trent) would be closely aligned with the Roman Catholic view of Soteriology.

You keep saying this "when someone else made all my choices from all eternity." in some form or another...

God does not make a choice for you God makes his own choice.

You make your own choice.

The fact that God makes His first and for very different reasons than you do does not mean you do not make a choice. The realty is your choice is the same as Gods and that in not a reflection on either one of you, Him being the creator and you being a creature.

You choose, yes but so does God. In a way God is glorified by your choosing the same as He has.

Nothing wrong with you doing so.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Clare73

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I agree we freely choose as seen throughout scripture.
Which does not preclude God working in our disposition giving us to prefer the choices we actually make.

Your God is too small.
I do not agree with much from Calvin and the Westminster Confession.
Calvin and the Westminster do not have the authority of the Bible, which Scriptures are all you have to agree with.
It would be helpful if you Biblically demonstrated where those two sources were contrary to Scripture, understood in agreement with all Scripture.
 
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BBAS 64

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Which does not preclude God working in our disposition giving us to prefer the choices we actually make.

Your God is too small.

Calvin and the Westminster do not have the authority of the Bible, which Scriptures are all you have to agree with.
It would be helpful if you Biblically demonstrated where those two sources were contrary to Scripture, understood in agreement with all Scripture.

Good Day, Clare

I agree there are many (external factors) that impact and effect the choices we make which are out of our control.

We can not change them so our freedom is limited, God does not have those restrictions he can do has he pleases freely.

Never the less we freely make the choice with in the confines we exists.

IN Him,

Bill
 
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John Mullally

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Which does not preclude God working in our disposition giving us to prefer the choices we actually make.

Your God is too small.
James 1:13 says that God tempts no one, but Calvin and Westminster has God doing far more than tempting - they have God causing (via his unchangeable decrees) people sin and then unjustly eternally damning them for doing what they could not avoid. No God is kind as He is love (1 John 4:8, 1 Corinthians 13) and God desires all people be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), so He has our best interests in mind.

God is angry at people causing others to sin (1 Kings 15:30). I can't imagine that God is thrilled with those teaching God causes people to sin.
Calvin and the Westminster do not have the authority of the Bible, which Scriptures are all you have to agree with.
It would be helpful if you Biblically demonstrated where those two sources were contrary to Scripture, understood in agreement with all Scripture.
If God is in the business of making our choices align with what He wants us to do, we would all be doing what He is commanding us in the Bible. What normal earthly father secretly wants his children to disobey him and works toward that end? Why would our righteous holy heavenly Father do that? No, God is not duplicitous.
Good day, John

I can see that certainly you historically (post Trent) would be closely aligned with the Roman Catholic view of Soteriology.

You keep saying this "when someone else made all my choices from all eternity." in some form or another...

God does not make a choice for you God makes his own choice.
You don't have to be Roman Catholic to oppose Calvin. Calvin teaches that God governs our actions and will - that is total mind control.
You make your own choice.

The fact that God makes His first and for very different reasons than you do does not mean you do not make a choice. The realty is your choice is the same as Gods and that in not a reflection on either one of you, Him being the creator and you being a creature.

You choose, yes but so does God. In a way God is glorified by your choosing the same as He has.
I don't think that God is most glorified by damning poor helpless creatures who can only think and do what is exhaustively decreed for them.
 
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Clare73

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James 1:13 says that God tempts no one, but Calvin and Westminster has God doing far more than tempting -
My only authority is the word of God written. . .why are you are talking about Calvin and the WCF.
 
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John Mullally

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My only authority is the word of God written. . .why are you are talking about Calvin and the WCF.
Spare me the sanctimony. You have posted thousands of times on this forum in support of Calvin and Reformed doctrine. I have gone over some absurdities in Calvin's teaching and the WCF and I don't see you showing from scripture how what I view as their absurdities are actually supported by the Bible - I was hoping you would.
 
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Clare73

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Spare me the sanctimony. You have posted thousands of times on this forum in support of Calvin and Reformed doctrine.
I deal only with Biblical doctrine.
Feel free to demonstrate your assertion showing that what I present is not Biblical.

I have gone over some absurdities in Calvin's teaching and the WCF and I don't see you showing from scripture how what I view as their absurdities are actually supported by the Bible - I was hoping you would.
I don't defend theology, I defend Scripture.
 
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John Mullally

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I deal only with Biblical doctrine.
Feel free to demonstrate your assertion showing that what I present is not Biblical.
Due to your many posts on these types of subjects, I expect knowledge and transparency. Do you affirm the Westminster Confession of Faith? And if you don't please point to something in that confession you don't agree with or are not confident in.
 
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Clare73

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Due to your many posts on these types of subjects, I expect knowledge and transparency. Do you affirm the Westminster Confession of Faith? And if you don't please point to something in that confession you don't agree with or are not confident in.
I am in agreement with most of the WCF. I disagree with it on divorce and am not certain of its construct of covenant theology.
 
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Clare73

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Spare me the sanctimony. You have posted thousands of times on this forum in support of Calvin and Reformed doctrine. I have gone over some absurdities in Calvin's teaching and the WCF and I don't see you showing from scripture how what I view as their absurdities are actually supported by the Bible - I was hoping you would.
I detect sincerity in your wanting to know how "Calvinism" can be reconciled with Scripture

Okay, at the risk of it all turning into just a harangue, I'll see if you have presented any Scripture in this thread which I can deal with.
 
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