Is this the hardest teaching of Jesus as it relates to Salvation?

[Roderick Spode]

Indeed, Paul would likely not have chosen to come to Christ, aside from Christ’s visible encounter along the road to Damascus, though even that is still speculation, just as anti-Christians do sometimes convert to Christianity without major revelations of God. Some even have a death-bed conversion. Clearly, God was not going to wait that long since He intended to call him to evangelism. Nonetheless, two facts remain: (a) God didn’t make Paul positively respond to His orders, and (b) others in similar severe circumstances chose not to act positively to God’s orders, such as Balaam and Jonah. Paul still had his own choice to make while he was blinded for three days. He could have chosen to harden his heart, like with Jonah and Balaam. It is question-begging to suppose that since Paul made the right choice, that his choice must have been made for him.

God didn't force Paul to convert in the sense of taking over his mind and will like a possession. But Paul was commanded directly by Jesus

Acts 9:6

6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.


He was spoken to directly by the Lord Jesus Christ. And although in theory he could have remained blind, his potential rejection would have required him to fight tooth and nail to do so. In more normal human situations, we would call that forcing one to submit because the decision would directly affect one's welfare. If someone is immediately blinded, and hears the actual voice of God, they don't have much choice because their welfare is on the line.

Paul was obviously filled with fear.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

When Paul witnessed to Agrippa,the rejection did not involve an act of God. It was a matter of either being persuaded or not. No voice directly from Jesus, nothing done to him physically, he could go on about his business after rejecting Paul's message.

Can you expound on what you mean when referring to Jonah and Balaam, and the hardening of the heart?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed, Paul would likely not have chosen to come to Christ, aside from Christ’s visible encounter along the road to Damascus, though even that is still speculation, just as anti-Christians do sometimes convert to Christianity without major revelations of God. Some even have a death-bed conversion. Clearly, God was not going to wait that long since He intended to call him to evangelism. Nonetheless, two facts remain: (a) God didn’t make Paul positively respond to His orders, and (b) others in similar severe circumstances chose not to act positively to God’s orders, such as Balaam and Jonah. Paul still had his own choice to make while he was blinded for three days. He could have chosen to harden his heart, like with Jonah and Balaam. It is question-begging to suppose that since Paul made the right choice, that his choice must have been made for him.

Jonah is a curious case, indeed. God sovereignly intervened in His life and imposed His will on Jonah. It is taken for granted that Jonah had been chosen by God long before God decided to send him to Ninevah. Thus, Jonah is really not a fit analogy in regard to salvation. Jonah's issue was one of service.

To compare it with Paul, Paul determined to go to Jerusalem to serve Christ even though he was solemnly warned by spiritual men not to go. All claimed to have been directed by the Spirit. This poses the problem as to actually which side was receiving leading by the Spirit. This has been debated ever since the events. ln any event, God did not overrule in Paul's case and force him to go to Jerusalem against his will, nor did He prevent Paul from going to Jerusalem.

 

[John Mullally]

Jonah is a curious case, indeed. God sovereignly intervened in His life and imposed His will on Jonah.

God did not impose His will on Jonah when Jonah fled from going to Nineveh.

It is taken for granted that Jonah had been chosen by God long before God decided to send him to Ninevah. Thus, Jonah is really not a fit analogy in regard to salvation. Jonah's issue was one of service.

I am not convinced that Jonah would be saved if he continued his rebellion. From the book of Jude, we know that Balaam was not saved even though God sovereignly intervened in his life and he briefly obeyed God.

To compare it with Paul, Paul determined to go to Jerusalem to serve Christ even though he was solemnly warned by spiritual men not to go.

The prophecy was to tell Paul and his comrades what was awaiting Paul if went to Jerusalem.

All claimed to have been directed by the Spirit. This poses the problem as to actually which side was receiving leading by the Spirit. This has been debated ever since the events. ln any event, God did not overrule in Paul's case and force him to go to Jerusalem against his will, nor did He prevent Paul from going to Jerusalem.

The prophesy was not telling Paul not to go. Paul was assigned to suffer in his service to God.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”​

 

[bbbbbbb]

God did not impose His will on Jonah when Jonah fled from going to Nineveh.

I am not convinced that Jonah would be saved if he continued his rebellion. From the book of Jude, we know that Balaam was not saved even though God sovereignly intervened in his life and he briefly obeyed God.

The prophecy was to tell Paul and his comrades what was awaiting Paul if went to Jerusalem.

The prophesy was not telling Paul not to go. Paul was assigned to suffer in his service to God.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”​

If God had the slightest inclination to allow Jonah to disobey His will, He would have, most assuredly, not created the storm at sea or deposited Jonah in the belly of the great fish, nor caused the fish to vomit him on the shore of Ninevah. Thus, it is plain that God did, indeed, impose His will on Jonah.

In fact, we see Jonah whining to God at the end when the vine withered. God imposed His will on Jonah by providing the vine in the first place and, in the second place, causing the worm to attack the vine, killing it. Jonah did nothing in regard to the vine other than to complain to God when it died.

According to your theology, Jonah lost his salvation after he whined about the death of the vine. Am I correct in thinking this?

Also, we see God imposing His will on Ninevah. God made it clear through Jonah that Ninevah's sins were so horrendous that it would, assuredly, be destroyed. God could have easily destroyed Ninevah, as He did the world during the great flood, without warning to the inhabitants. However, God decided to send Jonah to Ninevah, knowing full well that the Ninevites would repent and that He would relent concerning His judgement.

 

[John Mullally]

If God had the slightest inclination to allow Jonah to disobey His will, He would have, most assuredly, not created the storm at sea or deposited Jonah in the belly of the great fish, nor caused the fish to vomit him on the shore of Ninevah. Thus, it is plain that God did, indeed, impose His will on Jonah.

Jonah did disobey God's will when he fled on a ship. This shows that God can use extreme circumstances to force people into repentance against their will. But don't expect that to be the norm as many lives, other than Jonah's, were affected. God could have more easily let Jonah perish and sent someone else to preach to Nineveh.

In fact, we see Jonah whining to God at the end when the vine withered. God imposed His will on Jonah by providing the vine in the first place and, in the second place, causing the worm to attack the vine, killing it. Jonah did nothing in regard to the vine other than to complain to God when it died.

I fail to see how this story supports your point that God imposed His will on Jonah.

According to Calvinism, God was correcting Jonah for doing that which God secretly planned for Jonah to do (i.e. whining). Its like God is playing both sides of the chess board.

According to your theology, Jonah lost his salvation after he whined about the death of the vine. Am I correct in thinking this?

God puts up with us. The Bible does warn believers that they can fall away. In 2 Peter 2, especially verses 20-22, we see that many of the false Prophets Peter was warning the church about were at one time Christ believers.

Also, we see God imposing His will on Ninevah. God made it clear through Jonah that Ninevah's sins were so horrendous that it would, assuredly, be destroyed. God could have easily destroyed Ninevah, as He did the world during the great flood, without warning to the inhabitants. However, God decided to send Jonah to Ninevah, knowing full well that the Ninevites would repent and that He would relent concerning His judgement.

God spared Nineveh because they repented - the people in Noah's time did not. Noah must have warned others of upcoming judgment as in the same passage that Peter mentions the flood, he calls him a preacher of righteousness.

2 Peter 2:5 If he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;​

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jonah did disobey God's will when he fled on a ship. This shows that God can use extreme circumstances to force people into repentance against their will. But don't expect that to be the norm as many lives, other than Jonah's, were affected. God could have more easily let Jonah perish and sent someone else to preach to Nineveh.

I fail to see how this story supports your point that God imposed His will on Jonah.

According to Calvinism, God was correcting Jonah for doing that which God secretly planned for Jonah to do (i.e. whining). Its like God is playing both sides of the chess board.

God puts up with us. The Bible does warn believers that they can fall away. In 2 Peter 2, especially verses 20-22, we see that many of the false Prophets Peter was warning the church about were at one time Christ believers.

God spared Nineveh because they repented - the people in Noah's time did not. Noah must have warned others of upcoming judgment as in the same passage that Peter mentions the flood, he calls him a preacher of righteousness.

2 Peter 2:5 If he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;​

Thank you for confirming my thoughts regarding the eternal damnation of Jonah.

 

[John Mullally]

Thank you for confirming my thoughts regarding the eternal damnation of Jonah.

No, thank you. Although, I pointed out Jonah's failing - I never inferred any such thing. I don't know if any of us would have done better in such a difficult circumstance as based upon historical accounts the Ninevites were extremely cruel and Jonah's loved ones may have suffered from them. We learn from the book of Jonah that God is very merciful. The book of Jonah would not be in the Bible if he was damned, and Jesus would not compare himself to Jonah in Matthew 12:38-42 if Jonah was reprobate.

Here is a lesson for you: God is far more merciful than say fatalistic Calvin who killed his opponents (by their fruits you shall know them) and who slanders God's character by saying that God who John proclaims is love (1 John 4:8 &16) predestines some to eternal torment in order to gain glory for Himself. Obviously, Calvin and those who follow him also never understood what Paul said in 1 Timothy 2:4. And it is not just 1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 John 4:8&16 that they fail to understand - there are many other such similar NT passages..

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. ​

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you for confirming my thoughts regarding the eternal damnation of Jonah.

Here is the answer you provided to my question -

"God puts up with us. The Bible does warn believers that they can fall away. In 2 Peter 2, especially verses 20-22, we see that many of the false Prophets Peter was warning the church about were at one time Christ believers."

With Jonah we have a clear example of a man who apparently was not even a believer to start with. He clearly and willfully did his best to run away from God and to disregard God's unambiguous command. Jonah, like Pharaoh, only obeyed God when he had no other alternative. Then, he say back and expectantly waited for God to keep His end of the deal. However, God decided not to destroy the Ninevites, after all and Jonah was really bummed out. To salve Jonah's situation God caused the vine to grow. The vine did not decide to start growing then and there. Finally, God took away the vine and Jonah responded, not in gratitude to God for having had the vine, but in bitterness and anger to God for taking away the vine. What was God's response? Did He say, "Oh, I am so sorry that that vile worm ate the vine I gave to you? Here, let me give you something better, dear son." No! He told Jonah that He had set Jonah up as a false prophet in order that the true, repentant nature of the Ninevites would be revealed and that He would be able, then, to show His great mercy.

Was Jonah a true prophet? Not at all, if one uses the standard metric applied to all prophets in the Bible. His word did not come to pass. Was He sent by God? Without a doubt. Should we hold God responsible for His duplicity?

Jesus never commended Jonah's faithfulness. He referred to Jonah's three days and three nights in the belly of the fish as being analogous to His coming three days and three nights in the tomb.

 

[John Mullally]

Here is the answer you provided to my question -

"God puts up with us. The Bible does warn believers that they can fall away. In 2 Peter 2, especially verses 20-22, we see that many of the false Prophets Peter was warning the church about were at one time Christ believers."

With Jonah we have a clear example of a man who apparently was not even a believer to start with. He clearly and willfully did his best to run away from God and to disregard God's unambiguous command. Jonah, like Pharaoh, only obeyed God when he had no other alternative. Then, he say back and expectantly waited for God to keep His end of the deal. However, God decided not to destroy the Ninevites, after all and Jonah was really bummed out.

Obviously there are differences between Jonah and Pharaoh, just like there are between Peter and Judas.

Jonah knew that God was sending him because He wanted to forgive Nineveh.

Jonah 4:2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.​

To salve Jonah's situation God caused the vine to grow. The vine did not decide to start growing then and there. Finally, God took away the vine and Jonah responded, not in gratitude to God for having had the vine, but in bitterness and anger to God for taking away the vine. What was God's response? Did He say, "Oh, I am so sorry that that vile worm ate the vine I gave to you? Here, let me give you something better, dear son." No! He told Jonah that He had set Jonah up as a false prophet in order that the true, repentant nature of the Ninevites would be revealed and that He would be able, then, to show His great mercy.

You read a lot into the story about the vine when the Lord plainly tells us what it is about.

Jonah 4:10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”​

Was Jonah a true prophet? Not at all, if one uses the standard metric applied to all prophets in the Bible. His word did not come to pass. Was He sent by God? Without a doubt. Should we hold God responsible for His duplicity?

Nineveh was on the way to destruction. Jesus affirms Jonah's ministry without highlighting his failure. Obviously Nineveh destruction was conditional as it was averted because they repented.

Matthew 12:39 He said to them, “The sinful people of this day look for something special to see. There will be nothing special to see but the powerful works of the early preacher Jonah. 40 Jonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of a big fish. The Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the grave also. 41 The men of the city of Nineveh will stand up with the people of this day on the day men stand before God. Those men will say these people are guilty because the men of Nineveh were sorry for their sins and turned from them when Jonah preached. And see, Someone greater than Jonah is here!​

 

[bbbbbbb]

Obviously there are differences between Jonah and Pharaoh, just like there are between Peter and Judas.

Jonah knew that God was sending him because He wanted to forgive Nineveh.

Jonah 4:2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.​

You read a lot into the story about the vine when the Lord plainly tells us what it is about.

Jonah 4:10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”​

Nineveh was on the way to destruction. Jesus affirms Jonah's ministry without highlighting his failure. Obviously Nineveh destruction was conditional as it was averted because they repented.

Matthew 12:39 He said to them, “The sinful people of this day look for something special to see. There will be nothing special to see but the powerful works of the early preacher Jonah. 40 Jonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of a big fish. The Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the grave also. 41 The men of the city of Nineveh will stand up with the people of this day on the day men stand before God. Those men will say these people are guilty because the men of Nineveh were sorry for their sins and turned from them when Jonah preached. And see, Someone greater than Jonah is here!​

Was Jonah a true prophet or a false prophet? Did the words of his prophecy come to pass or did they not?

 

[John Mullally]

Was Jonah a true prophet or a false prophet? Did the words of his prophecy come to pass or did they not?

He is a true prophet. The judgement against Nineveh was understood to be conditional. Jonah said exactly what God commanded him to say.

Jonah 3:1 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.” 3 Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. 4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.​

 

[bbbbbbb]

He is a true prophet. The judgement against Nineveh was understood to be conditional. Jonah said exactly what God commanded him to say.

Jonah 3:1 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.” 3 Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. 4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.​

Deuternomy 18:19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

 

[John Mullally]

Deuternomy 18:19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Thus you cannot reconcile Jonah 3:1-5 which says that Jonah obeyed the Lord in his message with Deuteronomy 18:19. I gave my answer to this perceived discrepancy by saying that it was understood that Nineveh's demise was conditional which Jesus affirmed in Matthew 12:38-42. You term Jonah a false prophet and thus render Jonah 3:1-5 a lie. Is that the hill you want to die on?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thus you cannot reconcile Jonah 3:1-5 which says that Jonah obeyed the Lord in his message with Deuteronomy 18:19. I gave my answer to this perceived discrepancy by saying that it was understood that Nineveh's demise was conditional which Jesus affirmed in Matthew 12:38-42. You term Jonah a false prophet and thus render Jonah 3:1-5 a lie. Is that the hill you want to die on?

Did Jonah's prophecy against Ninevah come to pass?

 

[John Mullally]

Did Jonah's prophecy against Ninevah come to pass?

Yes, given that the prophesy was properly understood to be conditional even by the know-nothing pagan Ninevites and affirmed by Jesus in Matthew 12. In Jesus's encounters with legalistic Pharisees, he told them to pull the planks out (Matthew 7:3-5). People recognize truth (John 7:46) and it doesn't sound like when medieval lawyer John Calvin says God predestines some infants to hell in order to receive glory for Himself (see Post 87), No God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16).

Jonah who hated the Ninevites (per Jonah 4:1-3), would have relished the opportunity to proclaim Nineveh was done for if he knew the proclamation was just to rub it in.

Ask yourself, why would Jesus reference a false prophet when describing what He would go through in His death and resurrection?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, given that the prophesy was properly understood to be conditional even by the know-nothing pagan Ninevites and affirmed by Jesus in Matthew 12. In Jesus's encounters with Pharisees there are a lot of religious people who need to pull the planks out (Matthew 7:3-5).

Jonah who hated the Ninevites (per Jonah 4:1-3), would have relished the opportunity to proclaim Nineveh was done for if he knew the proclamation was not conditional.

Ask yourself, why would Jesus reference a false prophet when describing what He would go through in His death and resurrection?

Thank you.

 

[Bobber]

i try not to think to deeply into how it all works in terms of our ability or inability to come to God. to me, God is completely sovereign over all his creation (including us) but also I don't discount our ability to choose, even if truly it is not really our ability in choosing or not. it sounds like a contradiction, but i prefer to think of it as the best we can do with our limited ability to understand the vastness of the Trinity.

As for me I can't accept that. Such would be saying God can create a square circle. You can't have we have the ability to choose and not truly truly have that ability.

 

[Bobber]

The Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51), thus the Holy Spirit does not regenerate people outside of their consent. And God will not do for anyone what He directs them to do, so He won't make anyone believe and repent.

A very good point.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As for me I can't accept that. Such would be saying God can create a square circle. You can't have we have the ability to choose and not truly truly have that ability.

Physicists long denied the remote possibility of the existence of "dark matter", not to mention the bizarre possibility of the universe as we know it to have had a starting point of its existence. What physicists thought and believed has now been completely replaced as they are just beginning to perceive "dark matter" and have determined that one of the results of the birth of the universe is its continuing expansion.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good day,

Is this the hardest teaching of Jesus as it relates to Salvation?

I know it is hard to hear ( it is the hardest teaching of Jesus IMHO) that man has a complete inability to come. It does grate as it were against one's own view of self-determination and highly valued self-autonomy.

We see in John 6 Jesus says it twice and it does not go over very well.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Then again:


Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

The universal inability of man to come to Christ requires the active intervention of God on behalf of man.. so, he told them twice.... it finally sank in.

They (many) did not like that, so they leave Him.


Thoughts?

In Him,

Bill

It is more likely that they were offended because He was making statements like:

John 6:53-56 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

As for:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

It is not talking about the inability of man to make choices. If you read John 14, a passage dedicated to speaking about how we receive the Holy Spirit, you will see this “drawing” only occurs “after” we walk in obedience to God’s command.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1. We receive the word
2. We keep it
3. The one who keeps the Word is loved by God
4. The one loved by God receives manifestation

Note that one of the commands of Jesus is to “believe in the one whom God sent”, so I am not advocating a works based salvation. But rather as we accept God’s offer of forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit, we are deemed righteous. Yet, deeds should follow James 2:14.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!