John Mullally
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Good day, FAHIt is more likely that they were offended because He was making statements like:
John 6:53-56 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
As for:
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
It is not talking about the inability of man to make choices. If you read John 14, a passage dedicated to speaking about how we receive the Holy Spirit, you will see this “drawing” only occurs “after” we walk in obedience to God’s command.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
- We receive the word
- We keep it
- The one who keeps the Word is loved by God
- The one loved by God receives manifestation
Note that one of the commands of Jesus is to “believe in the one whom God sent”, so I am not advocating a works based salvation. But rather as we accept God’s offer of forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit, we are deemed righteous. Yet, deeds should follow James 2:14.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!
Well, I do believe man can choose without being granted. All are granted light, but it is the choice they make that determines the outcome.Good day, FAH
Highly unlikely that it had any thing to do with 6:53-56. That would be an erroneous interpretation of the the text by the Roman Catholic denomination. I would suggest Augustine's work on the passage.
But of course if you are a member of that denomination you are clearly bound by what they tell you.
Consider:
Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
This refers to the statement he just made.
You are correct it has nothing to do with Man's ability to chose, But mans clear inability to come to Christ ( no man can come to me unless it is granted).
Now if you would like to speculate that man can choose with out being first grated that which he is unable, then be my guest.
In Him,
Bill
... I would suggest Augustine's work on the passage...
You assume that there is nothing these could have done to come to Jesus. But, going back to John 6:45 (the OP referenced John 6:44), we see that the Father grants those who learn from the Father to be drawn to Jesus.Good day, FAH
Highly unlikely that it had any thing to do with 6:53-56. That would be an erroneous interpretation of the the text by the Roman Catholic denomination. I would suggest Augustine's work on the passage.
But of course if you are a member of that denomination you are clearly bound by what they tell you.
Consider:
Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Those faithful Jews who had learned from the Father (John 6:45) were drawn to Jesus. We see that with the very early examples of Simeon and Anna in Luke 2:21-38.Now if you would like to speculate that man can choose with out being first grated that which he is unable, then be my guest.
Good day, JohnYou assume that there is nothing these could have done to come to Jesus. But, going back to John 6:45 (the OP referenced John 6:44), we see that the Father grants those who learn from the Father to be drawn to Jesus.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.A little later in John 7, Jesus tells the Jews that those who choose to do the will of God will know if His teaching was of God. Why would Jesus be saying that if many people are blocked from even choosing to do God's will? It would seem that if that were the case, Jesus would simply explain that God predetermined who would and who would not come to Him, instead of referencing a choice that people make.
John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Post Calvary, all people are drawn to Jesus.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Those faithful Jews who had learned from the Father (John 6:45) were drawn to Jesus. We see that with the very early examples of Simeon and Anna in Luke 2:21-38.
Good day,Well, I do believe man can choose without being granted. All are granted light, but it is the choice they make that determines the outcome.
Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.
It occurs similarly to the above:
- God opens the eyes/ears of the person to the truth
- If they obey they will live
- If they do not obey they will perish
As a Calvinist, you speak of the opening of the eyes of only the elect. Your order of salvation is God grants the Holy Spirit and the eyes are open. But if we look at verses that "do" refer to receiving the Holy Spirit, the order is very different. Man's response to the word of God determines if he receives the Holy Spirit.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
- We receive the word
- We keep it
- The one who keeps the Word is loved by God
- The one loved by God receives manifestation
Jesus had to be crucified in order to redeem mankind, so he was not trying to convince all the Jews to follow him. He lays out conditions under which the Jews in his day would be drawn by the Father to believe in him.Good day, John
I am assuming nothing.
I am telling you that the phase "No one can come to me" means that no body is able to come.
So YES there is nothing they could have done they were unable to do so, because they cannot.
Unless God does something to over come their inability to come, if God does not act they remain unable to come.
Isaiah 54:13 and Hebrews 8:10-11 has not yet been fulfilled. In the book of Romans, Paul differentiates Gentiles and Jews (AKA the house of Israel). The house of Israel does not presently all know him - although one day they will (Romans 11:25-27).The second part of the text is really a quote from Isa 54:13. Also quoted in Hebrews 8:10-11
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Is it God or us doing the choosing "to do the will of God"? Jesus would not be instructing people to "choose to do the will of God" in John 7:17, if God is selecting exactly who will do that - as that would be misleading..If you would like if you could get a copy of DA Carson's work on NT use of the OT we can take a look at the use of Isa 54:13 in the NT.
Any one who chooses to do the will of God has their heart of stone changed by God, and He has put His sprint within them and He is the cause of then doing his will. It is the new heart that he write His law upon and as a result of that work we become His people that is the beauty of the new Covenant
Statements can convey multiple pieces of information. John 12:32 also shows that post-Calvary, Jesus will draw all people to himself. You are telling me you cannot see that.Jesus speaks John 12:32 for the explicit purpose "He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. "
Certainly not what you suppose it to mean, clearly the text tells us why he said it and what it means.
This passage is taken from John 6:37-39. The most important message to us is in the last sentence as it instructs us how to be saved. This compliments what Jesus told us earlier in John 3:14-15.They are drawn by the Father, and given to the Son for the explicit purpose of being raised up on the last day.
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
You assume that we don't have a choice in the matter of salvation. You are correct that the Father did not draw everyone to Jesus during his ministry. But that does not mean that this choice of God's was not constrained by choices that individuals made earlier - as I iterated in the first part of this post.The Father Gives ( cause) and we all come (effect) and he raise those given up on the last day ( purpose) which can not be thwarted.
Every single one given by the comes to the son with out fail the wonder of the NC.
Jesus says it again.... Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
If the Father does not Grant you to come you remain unable to do so.
Worship God because he is the only sufficient and effective cause of our Salvation. He has given us to His son for a purpose that the Son carries out.
You John came to the Son because of the work Father in making you His own.
That does not mean that God has not instructed people on how they can be saved as we see in John 6:39 that you quoted as well as in numerous other NT passages.Salvation is of the Lord!
Jesus had to be crucified in order to redeem mankind, so he was not trying to convince all the Jews to follow him. He lays out conditions under which the Jews in his day would be drawn by the Father to believe in him.
- In John 5:45-47, he tells Jewish leaders that those who don't believe Moses cannot believe him. He does not say people cannot believe Moses. This shows a reason for God not drawing some at that time.
- In John 6:45, he tells us that those who learn from the Father will come to him. He does not say people are unable to learn from the Father.
- In John 7:17, he says that "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own" (NIV). Jesus would not say "Anyone who chooses", if we can't freely make that choice.
- In John 10:38, he calls on those opponents who he earlier termed "not my sheep" to "know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father” by his works (i.e. miracles). Why try to convince "not my sheep" to become followers (i.e. his sheep)? Nicodemus is an example of someone who did this earlier in his ministry (John 3).
Isaiah 54:13 and Hebrews 8:10-11 has not yet been fulfilled. In the book of Romans, Paul differentiates Gentiles and Jews (AKA the house of Israel). The house of Israel does not presently all know him - although one day they will (Romans 11:25-27).
Is it God or us doing the choosing "to do the will of God"? Jesus would not be instructing people to "choose to do the will of God" in John 7:17, if God is selecting exactly who will do that - as that would be misleading..
Statements can convey multiple pieces of information. John 12:32 also shows that post-Calvary, Jesus will draw all people to himself. You are telling me you cannot see that.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
Good day JohnJesus had to be crucified in order to redeem mankind, so he was not trying to convince all the Jews to follow him. He lays out conditions under which the Jews in his day would be drawn by the Father to believe in him.
- In John 5:45-47, he tells Jewish leaders that those who don't believe Moses cannot believe him. He does not say people cannot believe Moses. This shows a reason for God not drawing some at that time.
- In John 6:45, he tells us that those who learn from the Father will come to him. He does not say people are unable to learn from the Father.
- In John 7:17, he says that "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own" (NIV). Jesus would not say "Anyone who chooses", if we can't freely make that choice.
- In John 10:38, he calls on those opponents who he earlier termed "not my sheep" to "know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father” by his works (i.e. miracles). Why try to convince "not my sheep" to become followers (i.e. his sheep)? Nicodemus is an example of someone who did this earlier in his ministry (John 3).
Isaiah 54:13 and Hebrews 8:10-11 has not yet been fulfilled. In the book of Romans, Paul differentiates Gentiles and Jews (AKA the house of Israel). The house of Israel does not presently all know him - although one day they will (Romans 11:25-27).
Is it God or us doing the choosing "to do the will of God"? Jesus would not be instructing people to "choose to do the will of God" in John 7:17, if God is selecting exactly who will do that - as that would be misleading..
Statements can convey multiple pieces of information. John 12:32 also shows that post-Calvary, Jesus will draw all people to himself. You are telling me you cannot see that.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
This passage is taken from John 6:37-39. The most important message to us is in the last sentence as it instructs us how to be saved. This compliments what Jesus told us earlier in John 3:14-15.
Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved?
You assume that we don't have a choice in the matter of salvation. You are correct that the Father did not draw everyone to Jesus during his ministry. But that does not mean that this choice of God's was not constrained by choices that individuals made earlier - as I iterated in the first part of this post.
That does not mean that God has not instructed people on how they can be saved as we see in John 6:39 that you quoted as well as in numerous other NT passages.