Is this the hardest teaching of Jesus as it relates to Salvation?

[bling]

In Genesis 4:6-8, God asked why Cain was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.


Although mankind does not seek God on his own, that is not proof that one cannot reply or respond positively to a God who seeks to save the lost. Moreover, pointing out that mankind are enemies of God, does not mean that we cannot confess our fallen state and reply to His message of reconciliation. There is nothing about being an enemy that implies or necessitates an inability to be reconciled to your enemy, just like there’s nothing about being a slave to sin which implies that you’re incapable of admitting that you’re enslaved when confronted. Just because you are a slave to sin, doesn’t mean that you cannot respond to God who offers to free you.

Believing is what translates us from death into life.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Regeneration is irrelevant to an unbeliever since they do not qualify for it. Regeneration is a spiritual blessing, and Ephesians 1:3 makes it clear that all spiritual blessings are only just for Christians, and thus the spiritual blessing of “regeneration” is blocked—to all except Christians. The purpose of regeneration is so that believers can walk with Christ in a growing relationship.

Seeing (3:3) or entering (3:5) the kingdom of God refers to entering Heaven itself. Luke 13:28 states: “‘In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.’” In this sense, the kingdom of God is a place. It’s Heaven. No one can get there unless they are born again. Keep in mind that Nicodemus was already a Jewish believer. So, rather than conveying the idea that one must be made born again in order to believe, a better interpretation is that it is necessary to become born again in order to be allowed entrance into Heaven. Moreover, if the meaning was that unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God—in terms of just understanding it—then why would Jesus criticize Nicodemus? In other words, “It’s not your fault. You haven’t been made born again yet. It may still happen for you, and if it does, it will all make sense to you.”

This is good.
You might add the idea: as unbelieving sinners we still can of our own free will choose the sins we do. We thus can for selfish sinful reasons choose to humbly accept God's pure undeserving charity as charity to selfishly live, even though we fully deserve to die in the pigsty of this life.

 

[John Mullally]

That is human speculation, we don't know what it shows other than what Scripture reveals about the nature of fallen man.

We learn much about God and man from their interactions recorded in the Bible. I don't find that God creates us as His robots - which is what Calvin effectively teaches when he says that God governs our every will and action.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

Was (fallen-man) Pharaoh able to obey God's command from Moses (Ex 4:21)?

God acted with Pharaoh based upon what He knew about Pharaoh. In this way, God is not causing the evil of man, and God’s morality is never in question. In contrast, Calvin claims that God controls everyone's will and action, which would make God the author of sin.

Exodus 3:19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.​

​

One way in which God hardened Pharaoh’s heart was by allowing his sorcerers to copy Moses’ miracles, so he would think that he was able to withstand God. The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart in order to accomplish His plan of bringing His people out of Egypt only shows what God was doing in the life of that particular individual, rather than speaking of what God does to everyone.

Exodus 7:22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.​

Although mankind does not seek God on his own, that is not proof that one cannot reply or respond positively to a God who seeks to save the lost.

We do respond positively when the Holy Spirit enables that response in us. Apart from the Holy Spirit, there is no such response (Jn 3:3-5).

The Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51), thus the Holy Spirit does not regenerate people outside of their consent. And God will not do for anyone what He directs them to do, so He won't make anyone believe and repent.

Believing is what translates us from death into life.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

There are no believers until regeneration occurs. Prior to that we are spiritually, dead, deaf and blind and cannot act spiritually.

Regeneration must follow belief because people who are regenerated are not spiritually dead and according to Jesus belief is what triggers our transition into spiritual life.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

Seeing (3:3) or entering (3:5) the kingdom of God refers to entering Heaven itself. Luke 13:28 states: “‘In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.’” In this sense, the kingdom of God is a place. It’s Heaven. No one can get there unless they are born again. Keep in mind that Nicodemus was already a Jewish believer. So, rather than conveying the idea that one must be made born again in order to believe, a better interpretation is that it is necessary to become born again in order to be allowed entrance into Heaven. Moreover, if the meaning was that unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God—in terms of just understanding it—then why would Jesus criticize Nicodemus? In other words, “It’s not your fault. You haven’t been made born again yet. It may still happen for you, and if it does, it will all make sense to you.”

Jesus likewise warned us of what would happen if we failed to believe, and yet we cannot believe if we are not born again (Jn 3:3-5), and we have nothing to do with our spiritual re-birth just as we have nothing to do with our natural birth. It is all the decision and work of the Holy Spirit in the spiritual birth (Jn 3:6-8) just as it is all the decision and work of our parents in the natural birth.
It worked the same in unregenerate Cain as it works in the unregenerate today (Jn 3:3-5), we are spiritually powerless apart from the enablement of the Holy Spirit in the rebirth.

Again, John 3:3-8 does not teach that one needs to be regenerated in order to believe.

Nicodemus was not a believer in Jesus Christ, which is what is necessary for the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus was a believer because he said that the signs proved Jesus was a teacher come from God and his acceptance to Jesus teaching in John 3.

In John 10, after Jesus labels Jewish leader opponents who wanted to stone him "not my sheep", Jesus calls for them to believe on him based upon His miracles, and thus become His sheep. Nicodemus had already believed based upon His miracles, accepted the difficult truths in John 3, and this confirmed by defending Jesus to his opposition in John 7,

John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”​

Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a teacher and not understanding cleansing and renewal, being "born of water and the Spirit" (Jn 3:5), for not picking up on Jesus' reference to Eze 36:25-27, 37:1-14, 18:31 in that regard.

I agree and I doubt Christ disciples understood that either.

 

[Soyeong]

Good day,

Is this the hardest teaching of Jesus as it relates to Salvation?

I know it is hard to hear ( it is the hardest teaching of Jesus IMHO) that man has a complete inability to come. It does grate as it were against one's own view of self-determination and highly valued self-autonomy.

We see in John 6 Jesus says it twice and it does not go over very well.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Then again:


Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

The universal inability of man to come to Christ requires the active intervention of God on behalf of man.. so, he told them twice.... it finally sank in.

They (many) did not like that, so they leave Him.


Thoughts?

In Him,

Bill

God needs to reveal the nature of who He is before we can come to Him through acting in accordance with His nature. In is not the case that we see the nature of who God is and then we have the inability to come to Him unless He draws us, but that God draws us by revealing His nature. In other words, we love because God first loved us.

 

[Clare73]

We learn much about God and man from their interactions recorded in the Bible. I don't find that God creates us as His robots - which is what Calvin effectively teaches when he says that God governs our every will and action.

If God gives me a love for ice cream, am I a robot for choosing ice cream?

That is how God governs every will and action.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

God acted with Pharaoh based upon what He knew about Pharaoh. In this way, God is not causing the evil of man, and God’s morality is never in question. In contrast, Calvin claims that God controls everyone's will and action, which would make God the author of sin.

Only because you do not understand what "God controls" actually means.

Exodus 3:19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.​

The Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51), thus the Holy Spirit does not regenerate people outside of their consent.

Yeah, like your mom didn't birth you outside of your consent.
Regenerate is rebirth, and as Jesus states, you have nothing to do with it, it is of the Holy Spirit who is as sovereign and as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).

 

[BBAS 64]

In the next verse we see that the Father draws to Jesus the faithful Jews who had heard and learned from the Father. This is collaborated in John 5:47-49 where Jesus tells the Jewish leaders that they don't believe what he says because they don't believe Moses.. Those who learned from the Father will of course believe Moses.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. NKJV​

Post-Calvary, when we are under the New Covenant, Jesus draws all people to himself.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.​

Based upon John 6:44-45 and John 5:47-49, the Father draws those who are in right relationship with the Father. God grants who He draws. The Bible does not teach that people can only come to Christ through some special intervention of God prior to faith - which Calvinists term "Irresistible Grace". Notice the pattern of Ephesians 1:13: It’s hears, believes and sealed, not sealed, listens and believes.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. NIV​

Good day, John

Yes verse 45 is a quote from the OT Jer 31:33 the writer of Hebrew quotes it as well.

He said that to show how he would die.... another context for another purpose.

God Draws to over come our inability.

No man can come unless the Father Draws him.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Yes the Gospel is what the means that the Holy Sprit uses it is the power unto Salvation...

We obtained the inheritance being Predestined according to His Purpose according to His will.

We are adopted sons...by his good pleasure He adopted us and Son's we will forever be.

he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

BTW Eph 1:1-14 is one long sentence really should never be broken up, it will get confusing if you do that.

I think that is part of your mistake and it really messes up your understanding.

Yeppers John that about covers it.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

God needs to reveal the nature of who He is before we can come to Him through acting in accordance with His nature. In is not the case that we see the nature of who God is and then we have the inability to come to Him unless He draws us, but that God draws us by revealing His nature. In other words, we love because God first loved us.

Good day, Soyong

I agree Jesus alone reveals the Father.

Joh 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Only if the Son chooses to reveal the Father.... There are some cases where he chooses not to.

Joh 8:19 They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

They are of their Father the Devil... not of God.


Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

In Him,

Bill

 

[John Mullally]

Good day, John

Yes verse 45 is a quote from the OT Jer 31:33 the writer of Hebrew quotes it as well.

He said that to show how he would die.... another context for another purpose.

God Draws to over come our inability.

No man can come unless the Father Draws him.

Pre-Calvary: John 6:45 tells us who the Father is drawing in John 6:44. John 6:45 indicates that the Father is drawing everyone who has heard and learned from the Father as they are those who come to Jesus. Thus in John 6:65, the Father is only enabling those who have heard and learned from the Father - which from the mass desertion turned out to be few of Jesus's disciples.

Post-Calvary: John 12:32 tells us that post-Calvary Jesus draws everyone to himself. This drawing occurs during the preaching of the Gospel. The limitations John 6:44-45 and John 6:65 do not apply post-Calvary as the scope of the drawing to Jesus is expanded to everyone.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

The book of Ephesians 1:1 is written to the faithful in Christ.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:​

So as an aid to understanding the Book of the Ephesians in context, everywhere you see "us" and "we" in the Book of Ephesians, substitute the "faithful in Christ". Thus Ephesians 1:11 can be understood as saying the following.

The "faithful in Christ" were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.​

​

Another thing, instead of individuals being predestined, many non-Calvinists submit its the class of Christ believers (i.e. the "faithful in Christ") who are predestined. God wants everyone saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and Christ did His part to enable everyone to be in Christ (1 Timothy 2:6, 2 John 2:1-2, Hebrews 2:9) - but just like many resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), many reject the Gospel.

 

[John Mullally]

If God gives me a love for ice cream, am I a robot for choosing ice cream?

That is how God governs every will and action.

If someone else governs your every will and action, you are effectively a robot - the means of governance (such as desire, external circumstances, forcing) does not matter. Ever seen the Stepford wives?

Calvin claims that God controls everyone's will and action, which would make God the author of sin.

Only because you do not understand what "God controls" actually means.

Maybe the issue is that I used the term "control" instead of "govern", which is the word Calvin used. When Calvin used "govern", he says that "... the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined."

I understand that when God governs our will and action, our actions and thoughts are such that we cannot do otherwise. I don't understand how we can then be held accountable for our evil actions that we cannot avoid doing.

I have heard Calvinists argue that mankind is guilty because we participate in wanting to do it. But God is also governing our will - we have no wiggle room.

Yeah, like your mom didn't birth you outside of your consent.
Regenerate is rebirth, and as Jesus states, you have nothing to do with it, it is of the Holy Spirit who is as sovereign and as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).

Matthew 18:3 states: “‘Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.’” The idea is that you must do something very important, or else you’re not going to Heaven when you die. Of course, you can’t make yourself “born again,” as only God can do that, but you have to do something before He will do it, and that something is turning to the Lord and being converted, meaning hearing and believing in the gospel.

In Calvinism, though, no one can turn to the Lord and be converted unless they are first secretly made born again without their knowledge. It is called pre-faith regeneration. However, what would be the point of alerting someone that there is something really important that must happen to them but there is absolutely nothing they can do about it? In Calvinism, there is nothing anyone can do to become born again. A person can only reflect back on their life and assume—based upon their good works—that’s something that must have happened to them, and if they do something really morally wrong, then they can question whether they were secretly born again after all.

 

[Clare73]

If someone else governs your every will and action, you are effectively a robot

Not according to the meaning of free will as used in the Bible; i.e., the power to choose without external force or constraint what one prefers.

 

[Clare73]

Pre-Calvary: John 6:45 tells us who the Father is drawing in John 6:44. John 6:45 indicates that the Father is drawing everyone who has heard and learned from the Father as they are those who come to Jesus. Thus in John 6:65, the Father is only enabling those who have heard and learned from the Father - which from the mass desertion turned out to be few of Jesus's disciples.

Post-Calvary: John 12:32 tells us that post-Calvary Jesus draws everyone to himself. This drawing occurs during the preaching of the Gospel. The limitations John 6:44-45 and John 6:65 do not apply post-Calvary as the scope of the drawing to Jesus is expanded to everyone.

The book of Ephesians 1:1 is written to the faithful in Christ.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:​

So as an aid to understanding the Book of the Ephesians in context, everywhere you see "us" and "we" in the Book of Ephesians, substitute the "faithful in Christ". Thus Ephesians 1:11 can be understood as saying the following.

The "faithful in Christ" were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.​

Precisely, before the creation of the world they were predestined
to be enabled by the Holy Spirit, through rebirth, faith and salvation, to be faithful in Christ.

Another thing, instead of individuals being predestined, many non-Calvinists submit its the class of Christ believers (i.e. the "faithful in Christ") who are predestined. God wants everyone saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and Christ did His part to enable everyone to be in Christ (1 Timothy 2:6, 2 John 2:1-2, Hebrews 2:9) - but just like many resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), many reject the Gospel.

 

[BBAS 64]

Pre-Calvary: John 6:45 tells us who the Father is drawing in John 6:44. John 6:45 indicates that the Father is drawing everyone who has heard and learned from the Father as they are those who come to Jesus. Thus in John 6:65, the Father is only enabling those who have heard and learned from the Father - which from the mass desertion turned out to be few of Jesus's disciples.

Post-Calvary: John 12:32 tells us that post-Calvary Jesus draws everyone to himself. This drawing occurs during the preaching of the Gospel. The limitations John 6:44-45 and John 6:65 do not apply post-Calvary as the scope of the drawing to Jesus is expanded to everyone.

The book of Ephesians 1:1 is written to the faithful in Christ.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:​

So as an aid to understanding the Book of the Ephesians in context, everywhere you see "us" and "we" in the Book of Ephesians, substitute the "faithful in Christ". Thus Ephesians 1:11 can be understood as saying the following.

The "faithful in Christ" were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.​

​

Another thing, instead of individuals being predestined, many non-Calvinists submit its the class of Christ believers (i.e. the "faithful in Christ") who are predestined. God wants everyone saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and Christ did His part to enable everyone to be in Christ (1 Timothy 2:6, 2 John 2:1-2, Hebrews 2:9) - but just like many resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), many reject the Gospel.

Good day, John

That is certainly a unhistorical and unbiblical way to view the NC... I guess when your traditions cause you to run from the clear words in scripture you are forced to fabricate things.

Kind of sad really...

In Him,

Bill

 

[John Mullally]

Good day, John

That is certainly a unhistorical and unbiblical way to view the NC... I guess when your traditions cause you to run from the clear words in scripture you are forced to fabricate things.

Kind of sad really...

In Him,

Bill

I present two responses to your assertions. If my use of scriptures is unbiblical, you should be able to point out the flaws in my arguments, instead of just casting aspersions.

 

[John Mullally]

Precisely, before the creation of the world they were predestined
to be enabled by the Holy Spirit, through rebirth, faith and salvation, to be faithful in Christ.

Calvinists and Lutherans assume that the use of predestined speaks of God selecting particular individuals before they exist for salvation. With Romans 8:29 being their main reason for believing so.

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

Who are “those whom He foreknew”? Romans 11:2 is the only other occurrence of “foreknew” in the Book of Romans, and which clearly refers to the Old Testament saints. This supports Romans 8:28 as the Bible provides examples of God working good for OT saints. So, why not consider that as a way to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

If you are correct that particular individuals are selected for redemption and to hell with everyone else, then all we have left is Theistic Fatalism. There is nothing anyone can do change their ultimate destiny in heaven or hell. Given that God is more pleased if the wicked turn to Him and live, why then does he predestine many not do so?

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? (ASV)​

 

[John Mullally]

If someone else governs your every will and action, you are effectively a robot - the means of governance (such as desire, external circumstances, forcing) does not matter.

Not according to the meaning of free will as used in the Bible; i.e., the power to choose without external force or constraint what one prefers.

God gives man free-will, and man chooses to believe in determinism, instead. That is the sad irony that Calvinists introduce into Christianity. Here are some biblical examples of free-will and there is no hint that God is somehow controlling man's choices.

Philemon 1:12 I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, 13 whom I wanted to keep with me, so that in your behalf he might be at my service in my imprisonment for the gospel; 14 but I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion, but of your own free will. (NASB)​

Here are additional variations to free-will, as found in the NASB:

Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and their priests and the Levites, in my realm, that are minded of their own free will to go to Jerusalem, go with thee.​

Genesis 49:6: “Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly; because in their anger they slew men, and in their self-will they lamed oxen.”​

​

1st Peter 5:2: “Shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness.”​

​

Luke 12:57: “‘And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?’”​

If God has free will (Ephesians 1:6), and if man is created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27), it stands to reason that man may also have free will, or else in what way is man created in the image of God? Free will is the gift of a life-giving God in order for humans and angels to possess a living mind, with autonomy of reason and creative intelligence, so as to be able to act independently, all so that mankind may be suitable caretakers of God’s creative works.

 

[Clare73]

Calvinists and Lutherans assume that the use of predestined speaks of God selecting particular individuals before they exist for salvation. With Romans 8:29 being their main reason for believing so.

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

Who are “those whom He foreknew”? Romans 11:2 is the only other occurrence of “foreknew” in the Book of Romans, and which clearly refers to the Old Testament saints. This supports Romans 8:28 as the Bible provides examples of God working good for OT saints. So, why not consider that as a way to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

If you are correct that particular individuals are selected for redemption and to hell with everyone else, then
all we have left is Theistic Fatalism.

You can thank Adam for that. . .all we have left is the doom Adam brought on us.

There is nothing anyone can do change their ultimate destiny in heaven or hell. Given that God is more pleased if the wicked turn to Him and live, why then does he predestine many not do so?

Because it is the best means to the best end.
Ro 9:22-23 sheds some light on this.

Keeping in mind Adam caused us all to be condemned (Ro 5:18).
Just as all snakes born of a rattlesnake will be rattlesnakes from birth, so all mankind born of fallen, sinful Adam will be fallen, sinful mankind from birth.
God owes no one to change that. That he does so to some for his own purposes is sheer mercy, which he owes to absolutely no one.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? (ASV)​

Agreed. . .but Adam put a wrench in those gears.

 

[Clare73]

God gives man free-will, and man chooses to believe in determinism, instead.

Nope. . .man chooses what he prefers without external force or constraint. . .for God works in us both to will and to do (Php 2:13).
No one is externally forcing man to, or constraining man from, choosing what he prefers.
And that is the definition of free will.

It's unfortunate that God's way is not agreeable to you.

 

[John Mullally]

You can thank Adam for that. . .all we have left is the doom Adam brought on us.

Because it is the best means to the best end.
Ro 9:22-23 sheds some light on this.

The underlying theme of Romans chapter’s 9 through 11 is Jewish evangelism, and Romans 9:1-5 sets the tone with Paul’s heart-felt desire to see his fellow Jewish brothers come to know Christ.

In Romans 9:22 where God chooses to show his wrath to some, it is only after He has suffered long with them.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (NKJV)​

And God's longsuffering is largely because He does not want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (NKJV)​

Keeping in mind Adam caused us all to be condemned (Ro 5:18).

Keep in mind, the second half of Romans 5:18 applies to the same "all men" as the first half.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (NKJV)​

Just as all snakes born of a rattlesnake will be rattlesnakes from birth, so all mankind born of fallen, sinful Adam will be fallen, sinful mankind from birth.
God owes no one to change that. That he does so to some for his own purposes is sheer mercy, which he owes to absolutely no one.

Our status is not static. John 5:24 tells us that believing transfers us from death into life. In John 10, after Jesus labelled his Pharisee opponents who wanted to stone him "not my sheep", Jesus calls for them to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of "His sheep".

John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. (NKJV)​

Agreed. . .but Adam put a wrench in those gears.

If Calvinism is correct, Adam had no real choice in the matter, because God governs our will and actions - and thus God caused Adam to "throw the wrench into the gears".

 

[Clare73]

Keep in mind, the second half of Romans 5:18 applies to the same "all men" as the first half.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (NKJV)​

Unless the first "all men" refers to those in the first Adam, and the second "all men" refers to those in the second Adam of the two contrasting parallels.

If Calvinism is correct, Adam had no real choice in the matter, because God governs our will and actions - and thus God caused Adam to "throw the wrench into the gears".

Straw man. . .he had as much choice as you do.

Do you experience having choice?

 

[John Mullally]

Unless the first "all men" refers to those in the first Adam, and the second "all men" refers to those in the second Adam of the two contrasting parallels.

The same greek word is used in both Roman 5:18 instances translated as "all men" in the NKJV. All major English Bible translations term these instances as "all men", "all", "all people", or "everyone". For what you say here to be true, Paul would need to use different terms, like perhaps what would be translated "some" in the first instance and "others" in the second instance.

Straw man. . .he had as much choice as you do.

If God governs my will and actions as Calvin states, I make no choices even though I have the impression of doing so.

Calvin taught our will and actions were decreed long ago by God. If that was true:

1. This part of Calvin's teaching should be clearly stated in scripture due to its vast importance.
2. All mention of "free will" in the Bible is at best misleading.
3. Jesus's astonishment over some's faith and other's unbelief should not have been directed at people because that was all scripted by God.
4. The Apostle John is wrong when he says God is love (1 John 4:8) because God is unimaginably cruel to those He predestined to eternal torment as He wrongfully damns them for doing that which He determined they do and which they could not avoid.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The same greek word is used in both Roman 5:18 instances translated as "all men" in the NKJV. All major English Bible translations term these instances as "all men", "all", "all people", or "everyone". For what you say here to be true, Paul would need to use different terms, like perhaps what would be translated "some" in the first instance and "others" in the second instance.

If God governs my will and actions as Calvin states, I make no choices even though I have the impression of doing so.

Calvin taught our will and actions were decreed long ago by God. If that was true:

1. This part of Calvin's teaching should be clearly stated in scripture due to its vast importance.
2. All mention of "free will" in the Bible is at best misleading.
3. Jesus's astonishment over some's faith and other's unbelief should not have been directed at people because that was all scripted by God.
4. The Apostle John is wrong when he says God is love (1 John 4:8) because God is unimaginably cruel to those He predestined to eternal torment as He wrongfully damns them for doing that which He determined they do and which they could not avoid.

Actually, just one small point here. I do not know of any place in the Bible where the term "free will" is used. Please show me where you find it.

Thank you.