Baptism is a work.

[Oneofhope]

Why?
The promises given to Abraham - that he, a childless man, would have many descendants - were specifically for him. I am not a 90 year old childless man.

No one walks blamelessly before the Lord - ALL are sinners, Romans 3:23.
Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8; Jesus came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10. If you are walking blamelessly before God and are not lost, you don't need saving; Christ didn't die for you.


You can if you like. I'm not Jewish, nor am I male.


?? Adam wasn't circumcised.
He was ashamed because he had disobeyed God.


Sin and disobedience to God is the main problem from which people suffer.


Which he did. He said "believe in me" and then went to the cross to reconcile us to God.

Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45. He later asked "should I say, 'Father save me from this hour'? No, it was for this reason I came", John 12:27.
He showed us, by his teachings and miracles, what life would be like in God's kingdom if he were allowed to reign as king, died for our sins and to reconcile us with God.
The effect of all this is that we now have peace with God and are justified by faith, Romans 5:1.


Like I said, the man claimed he was keeping the commands, but was in fact only keeping half of them.
He had great wealth, his money was an idol and Jesus told him to give it up and put God first. The man went away feeling sad because he didn't want to do that. He wanted to come to Jesus, but on his terms.
That exact example is not going to apply to everyone, but Jesus still tells his followers to love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. But it is not that saved, or having eternal life, will only be granted on condition that we do those things. That makes God's love conditional - and also makes Jesus out to be a liar because he said that we are not to just love those who will love us back, but be perfect as God is, Matthew 5:46-48.


Have you done it then?
This isn't about money as such - it's about giving up anything in our lives that comes before God.
The man said he wanted eternal life and claimed to have kept the commandments, but had only kept half of them.


Jesus' blood sealed the NEW Covenant that was about the forgiveness of sin.
I would have thought that God's grace, mercy, acceptance, forgiveness and unconditional love would cause most people to want to obey - it did with me. We love because he first loved us 1 John 4:19.

No.
Jesus promises forgiveness and eternal life to those who believe in him. His Spirit causes us to come to Jesus and be born again, John 3:3, and anyone who is in Christ is a new creation.
Sanctification is the ongoing process of becoming like Christ, which is, again, a work of the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Once a person is saved and is his child, God may well say "do you love me more than these?" and if our answer is 'no', may challenge us to give them up. They will be idols, standing between us and God.
But Jesus doesn't bargain with us and say "the contract I am about to make with you says that you have to give up ....... in order to benefit from my death. IF you can do that, I will save you and give you eternal life. It's all down to you."

The Good News is that it all started with God - HE showed mercy, grace and love to us. It's not that we do the right things and God says, "ok, you've done your bit; you've kept the terms and conditions; now I will give you eternal life."
That statement would not produce love, joy and peace, but fear, unease and worry that we had not done enough to receive a reward. That statement would cause people to say "I did it MY way" instead of "I owe it all to him."

I apologize, but we're going to have to stop. We are coming from two completely different planes. The things that I say are never going to make sense but instead just cause more questions, etc. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to be here at this site as much as the misunderstandings require to resolve.

 

[Strong in Him]

I apologize, but we're going to have to stop. We are coming from two completely different planes. The things that I say are never going to make sense

No because they're not correct.

But I agree it's probably time to stop.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So baptism correctly understood is a act a believer does and not an act a person does to become a believer.

Baptism is an act of God, it is his work, as one of my earlier posts stated.

 

[Guojing]

So if you believe that the Gospel is contained in these 2 verses, then the Gospel does not include/involve the Holy Spirit. And that's not correct, because it is only through the Spirit that we are born again and can enter the Kingdom of God.

When you say it's not correct, you think Paul was joking in that passage?

I cannot be saved if I hold on to that gospel he preached to me?

Instead I have to find out what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 and follow that?

Again, let me ask you to try to just read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, what does the passage literally says? If you are unwilling to do that for Galatians 1:8-9, can you try to do that for once in that new passage?

 

[rturner76]

Sacraments are not "works," they are evidence of one's faith. If one cannot be bothered to repent, wash away their sins and proclaim their faith in God, how real is their faith?

Also, why would a "work" not be beneficial to one's faith? Should we proclaim we believe that Christ is our savior but not follow his teachings? That would be akin to Martin Luther's statement to "Sin boldly." Should people sin boldly and proclaim there are followers of Christ's teachings?

 

[ARBITER01]

I mean that the Promises and Blessings established in Abraham need to be expressed in any legitimate Gospel that is purposed to bring a person to Christ for Eternal Life. These Promises and Blessings are the Spiritual Works performed upon him to cause him to walk blamelessly and Righteously before the Lord. This is what the physical circumcision represents.

If a person wants to be confident that they know the Gospel, they're going to have to drop their "shame" and begin discussing the Holy Word Circumcision. Shame and Circumcision takes us all the way back to early Genesis when Adam looked down and upon the second time the Bible speaks of this, he is now ashamed. Shame and uncircumcision is the core problem from which humans suffer. Shame and uncircumcision are the reasons for Christ to leave His Throne and come to Earth as a Redeemer. Christ then has Work to do . . . the Redeeming Work necessary for Eternal Life to be gained. One of His Works is to send the Holy Spirit so that change and Transformation become possible. This leads us to the Effect of Christ. Submitting to Christ means there will be a Holy Effect.

Any legitimate "Gospel" is one that speaks of the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ. If we are not expressing these basic principles to people who we claim to be sharing the Gospel with, then it is an incomplete Gospel and an incomplete Gospel is no Gospel at all.

If a person does not agree with terms of the Effect of Christ's Work, then Salvation will not be granted.

This is all that is required for a person to be born again/saved:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That's it.

You're ascribing a lot of OT principles that have no real relevance towards getting a person saved. Those principles are obviously there and somewhat talked about by Paul in his letters, but they are not "requirements" towards getting a person born from above, hence why it seems like you are promoting another gospel.

 

[Guojing]

No need to post a verse, since your view of baptism is way away from my belief. I will post a link to an excellent articles on the subject of baptism. You can read them if you want.​

Is Our Understanding of Baptism All Wet? – Grace Evangelical Society

We Believe In: Water Baptism – Grace Evangelical Society

You appear to be contented to rely on GES for your doctrinal beliefs, instead of ensuring they are from scripture?

 

[rturner76]

You're ascribing a lot of OT principles that have no real relevance towards getting a person saved.

Would Jesus Christ agree with this statement, considering he mainly preached from the OT scripture when he was in the Synagog/Temple?

I was under the I, impression that God the Father spoke from heaven and said "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased." when our Christ was baptised. I wonder why he would make a statement like that from heaven if baptism was irrelevant. Is our faith based on one verse from the New Testament or the entirety of scripture both old and new?

 

[Oneofhope]

This is all that is required for a person to be born again/saved:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That's it.

You're ascribing a lot of OT principles that have no real relevance towards getting a person saved. Those principles are obviously there and somewhat talked about by Paul in his letters, but they are not "requirements" towards getting a person born from above, hence why it seems like you are promoting another gospel.

I couldn't disagree more. To start, who is Jesus that I should call Him Lord?

From the get go, your gospel cannot save, for I am already asking who this "Jesus" is.

Yes, I reference the Old Testament because we are supposed to have the Faith of Abraham. Therefore, it seems prudent to discover the Plan of "One Faith" as it is in the Old Testament and how it is confirmed in the New Testament.

 

[ARBITER01]

Would Jesus Christ agree with this statement, considering he mainly preached from the OT scripture when he was in the Synagog/Temple?

I was under the I, impression that God the Father spoke from heaven and said "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased." when our Christ was baptised. I wonder why he would make a statement like that from heaven if baptism was irrelevant. Is our faith based on one verse from the New Testament or the entirety of scripture both old and new?

What Paul stated was what Jesus taught Him, and it aligns with my experience of being born again also.

I'm not going to search scripture to try and find ways to argue against him.

 

[ARBITER01]

I couldn't disagree more. To start, who is Jesus that I should call Him Lord?

From the get go, your gospel cannot save, for I am already asking who this "Jesus" is.

Yes, I reference the Old Testament because we are supposed to have the Faith of Abraham. Therefore, it seems prudent to discover the Plan of "One Faith" as it is in the Old Testament and how it is confirmed in the New Testament.

This is why I view your statements here as promoting a false gospel. Jesus doesn't place a heap of prerequisites on a wannabe believer before he/she can be saved.

What Paul stated about it is all that is required. We get to learn more about Jesus later on after we are pulled out of our sin and can discern right from wrong.

Christianity is a change of the heart, not just the mind.

 

[rturner76]

What Paul stated was what Jesus taught Him, and it aligns with my experience of being born again also.

I'm not going to search scripture to try and find ways to argue against him.

That is why your argument fails. Look to Christ and his Father for these answers not to your Joe Shmo American interpretation. Sorry to seem so harsh but I follow the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ, not Charles Fox Parnum 1900 years after Christ ascended into heaven. How could he know the will of the Father better than Jesus and his 12 disciples?

 

[ARBITER01]

That is why your argument fails. Look to Christ and his Father for these answers not to your Joe Shmo American interpretation. Sorry to seem so harsh but I follow the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ, not Charles Fox Parnum 1900 years after Christ ascended into heaven. How could he know the will of the Father better than Jesus and his 12 disciples?

Lol.

If you wish to follow your church, by all means have at it buddy. I like having an answer from heaven on things, not living in my mind. Good day.

 

[Guojing]

That is why your argument fails. Look to Christ and his Father for these answers not to your Joe Shmo American interpretation. Sorry to seem so harsh but I follow the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ, not Charles Fox Parnum 1900 years after Christ ascended into heaven. How could he know the will of the Father better than Jesus and his 12 disciples?

I think for his case, when Paul says things that he agrees with, he will follow Paul, and not what Jesus said in his first coming.

But when Paul says things that he disagrees with, he will follow what Jesus said in his first coming, and not Paul.

 

[d taylor]

You appear to be contented to rely on GES for your doctrinal beliefs, instead of ensuring they are from scripture?

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I always seek out the most accurate teachings.

 

[d taylor]

Baptism is an act of God, it is his work, as one of my earlier posts stated.

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I will confess i posted my first post here, from only reading the thread headline. But regardless that would still not change my position on water baptism. Which is, it does not matter if baptism is a work or not, it never gives anyone Eternal Life.

 

[Guojing]

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I always seek out the most accurate teachings.

But they need not be from scripture?

 

[d taylor]

But they need not be from scripture?

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GES has only written many, many books all using scripture to support their teachings. But as the saying goes a person will only see what they want to see.

The Grace New Testament Commentary (2 vols.)

 

[Guojing]

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​

GES has only written many, many books all using scripture to support their teachings. But as the saying goes a person will only see what they want to see.

The Grace New Testament Commentary (2 vols.)

People are asking you for scripture that indicated that "water baptism is a public profession that they have believed in Jesus."

 

[Strong in Him]

When you say it's not correct, you think Paul was joking in that passage?

Of course he wasn't joking; he just didn't encapsulate the whole Gospel in those 2 verses.

I cannot be saved if I hold on to that gospel he preached to me?

A person cannot be born again without the Holy Spirit.
Without being born again, a person cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Elsewhere, Paul has written whole passages/chapters about the Holy Spirit and life in the Spirit. Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, Ephesians 1:3-14 etc. Yet here he doesn't even mention the Spirit here.
That's what I was saying.

Instead I have to find out what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 and follow that?

If you say that you are born again, that was the work of the Holy Spirit.
If you believe that Jesus, who was both God and man, died for your sins and reconciled you to God, that was the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads people to Jesus.
If you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
If you believe you are a child of God and will be with him one day, that is the work of the Spirit, who was given as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14
The Holy Spirit even inspired God's word to be written; Paul had already told the Corinthians that the things he taught, and wrote, were revealed to him by the Spirit.

It's not possible to come to God, confess your sin, be born again, become a new creation and read God's word without the work, and involvement, of the Holy Spirt.
If you can say 'yes' to any of the above, the Spirit is in your life and is part of your faith whether you believe you are following John 3, or not.

Again, let me ask you to try to just read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, what does the passage literally says?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does NOT say; "this is the entire Gospel, there is nothing else."
Like I say, Paul has already written loads about the Spirit, life in the Spirit, the role of the Spirit and so on. I don't know why he didn't mention the Spirit here, but that doesn't mean that he is not important or that Paul denied his role.
Paul doesn't mention Jesus' return in this passage, yet writes about it elsewhere. Was Paul forgetful, a hypocrite or did he contradict himself, maybe deliberately, to confuse everyone?