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Baptism is a work.

Xeno.of.athens

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No need to post a verse
Why is there no need to post a verse (or a passage, or several of each)? My view on baptism does not influence what the holy scriptures say nor what you interpret them to mean so do not let my view make you hesitate to present your view.
 
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Strong in Him

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So you believe Paul needed to also remind us to read about what Jesus instructed at his first coming for salvation, and also follow those, if we want to be saved?
You said that the Gospel is found only in 1 Cor 15:3-4 - how should I know that really means "+ everything Jesus taught"?
The Corinthians were Greek; how would they know what Jesus had taught the 12 and Nicodemus? The Gospel of John had not then be written. WE can read all the NT Scriptures; they couldn't.
So if you believe that the Gospel is contained in these 2 verses, then the Gospel does not include/involve the Holy Spirit. And that's not correct, because it is only through the Spirit that we are born again and can enter the Kingdom of God.
 
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Oneofhope

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Why "yikes"?

Because any legitimate "Gospel" must include the terms and conditions. If a person doesn't understand the terms and conditions, then they haven't actually "heard" the Gospel as of yet. You haven't provided them, so . . . yikes it will be.
 
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Oneofhope

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all seven sacraments bring a gift, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given in baptism and confirmation, he is also given in ordination.
So, you're saying that Jesus only sends the Holy Spirit if a person is water-baptized?
 
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Strong in Him

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Because any legitimate "Gospel" must include the terms and conditions.
No, it doesn't.
That is the Good News - we could never come to God, reconcile ourselves to God or do anything to make God love and accept us. He has done it all, and he offers eternal life as a free gift, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8.
The only "terms and conditions" would be; repent and accept Christ.
If a person doesn't understand the terms and conditions, then they haven't actually "heard" the Gospel as of yet. You haven't provided them, so . . . yikes it will be.
Trust me, I've heard Jesus say "repent and come to me to receive eternal life". I've heard him say "I died for sinners", "I am the only Way to the Father", John 14:6 and "come to me who who are heavy laden and I will give you rest", Matthew 11:28.

If you are saying that God's love is conditional and we have to do something to earn or deserve it - yikes; back at ya.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So, you're saying that Jesus only sends the Holy Spirit if a person is water-baptized?
I say what the Lord revealed in the four gospels and in the letters and in the Apocalypse; that in baptism one receives the Holy Spirit. I do not add "only" to what the holy scriptures say, nor do I say "but" so that I can ignore what the holy scriptures say.
 
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Oneofhope

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No, it doesn't.
That is the Good News - we could never come to God, reconcile ourselves to God or do anything to make God love and accept us. He has done it all, and he offers eternal life as a free gift, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8.
The only "terms and conditions" would be; repent and accept Christ.

Trust me, I've heard Jesus say "repent and come to me to receive eternal life". I've heard him say "I died for sinners", "I am the only Way to the Father", John 14:6 and "come to me who who are heavy laden and I will give you rest", Matthew 11:28.

If you are saying that God's love is conditional and we have to do something to earn or deserve it - yikes; back at ya.

Good luck to ya.
 
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Oneofhope

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I say what the Lord revealed in the four gospels and in the letters and in the Apocalypse; that in baptism one receives the Holy Spirit. I do not add "only" to what the holy scriptures say, nor do I say "but" so that I can ignore what the holy scriptures say.

Okie Doke
 
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Oneofhope

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Don't need luck; I am a child of God and I have Jesus, who keeps his promises.
And those Promises need to be understood and expressed in any legitimate "Gospel" given to another with the purpose of "bringing someone to Christ."
 
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ARBITER01

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Okie Doke

He removed the water portion of it for your question,......but he still means water.

He's not talking about the born again Spiritual immersion where we are sealed with The Spirit.
 
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Oneofhope

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He removed the water portion of it for your question,......but he still means water.

He's not talking about the born again Spiritual immersion where we are sealed with The Spirit.

Gotchya. I have to admit that it's pretty tough to follow these ideas, considering that they are ideas and concepts that don't appear in the Bible with the same language (words used).
 
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Dan Perez

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I say what the Lord revealed in the four gospels and in the letters and in the Apocalypse; that in baptism one receives the Holy Spirit. I do not add "only" to what the holy scriptures say, nor do I say "but" so that I can ignore what the holy scriptures say.
So , enter a verse for your believable on baptism ??

How about 1 Peter 3:21 , your thoughts ??

dan p
 
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ARBITER01

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Gotchya. I have to admit that it's pretty tough to follow these ideas, considering that they are ideas and concepts that don't appear in the Bible with the same language (words used).

In many ways, it's the fault of old translations as well as transliterated words. Rather than define the Greek word of baptizo as immersion, dipping, or cleansing, they use the transliterated word of baptism which can be interpreted whichever way they want. They sort of hide their doctrine behind it that way.
 
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Strong in Him

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And those Promises need to be understood and expressed in any legitimate "Gospel" given to another with the purpose of "bringing someone to Christ."
I don't know what you mean by that. Do you not believe that Christ gives us eternal life?
 
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Oneofhope

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I don't know what you mean by that. Do you not believe that Christ gives us eternal life?

I mean that the Promises and Blessings established in Abraham need to be expressed in any legitimate Gospel that is purposed to bring a person to Christ for Eternal Life. These Promises and Blessings are the Spiritual Works performed upon him to cause him to walk blamelessly and Righteously before the Lord. This is what the physical circumcision represents.

If a person wants to be confident that they know the Gospel, they're going to have to drop their "shame" and begin discussing the Holy Word Circumcision. Shame and Circumcision takes us all the way back to early Genesis when Adam looked down and upon the second time the Bible speaks of this, he is now ashamed. Shame and uncircumcision is the core problem from which humans suffer. Shame and uncircumcision are the reasons for Christ to leave His Throne and come to Earth as a Redeemer. Christ then has Work to do . . . the Redeeming Work necessary for Eternal Life to be gained. One of His Works is to send the Holy Spirit so that change and Transformation become possible. This leads us to the Effect of Christ. Submitting to Christ means there will be a Holy Effect.

Any legitimate "Gospel" is one that speaks of the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ. If we are not expressing these basic principles to people who we claim to be sharing the Gospel with, then it is an incomplete Gospel and an incomplete Gospel is no Gospel at all.

If a person does not agree with terms of the Effect of Christ's Work, then Salvation will not be granted. This is what we were supposed to learn from the below Scripture:

Mark 10:17-22 NKJV - "Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Do you see it? Jesus answered his question "What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" The young man didn't approve of Jesus's terms and conditions, so he went away sad. Now me, I cannot comprehend why anyone who was excited about Eternal Life would be upset that Jesus would tell them to give it all away only to turn and follow Him, Jesus, instead. That would be perfect! I would love to abandon all things and be with Jesus everywhere He went. I would have no need for anything. Perfect! Let's go! But this rich young man? Was he happy about this incredible offer? No, he wasn't. He walked away sad because he loved all that came with his money . . . notoriety, probably several women to marry, etc. Yet I would tell Jesus, "Don't go far, because this won't take long!" Why would I be willing? Because I agree with the terms of the Covenant, which is that God will cause Rigtheousness, Purity, Holiness, and the desires that cause us to obey.

What are the terms and conditions? We need to be ready to answer that question, for if a Transformation is to be expected, a person needs to be aware of it. They need to know that they will be giving up a life of sin in exchange for a life of service to the Lord.
 
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d taylor

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Why is there no need to post a verse (or a passage, or several of each)? My view on baptism does not influence what the holy scriptures say nor what you interpret them to mean so do not let my view make you hesitate to present your view.

Because there are no verses that even hint at baptism being a condition for a person to do, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. So baptism correctly understood is a act a believer does and not an act a person does to become a believer.
 
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Strong in Him

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I mean that the Promises and Blessings established in Abraham need to be expressed in any legitimate Gospel that is purposed to bring a person to Christ for Eternal Life.
Why?
The promises given to Abraham - that he, a childless man, would have many descendants - were specifically for him. I am not a 90 year old childless man.
These Promises and Blessings are the Spiritual Works performed upon him to cause him to walk blamelessly and Righteously before the Lord. This is what the physical circumcision represents.
No one walks blamelessly before the Lord - ALL are sinners, Romans 3:23.
Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8; Jesus came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10. If you are walking blamelessly before God and are not lost, you don't need saving; Christ didn't die for you.

If a person wants to be confident that they know the Gospel, they're going to have to drop their "shame" and begin discussing the Holy Word Circumcision.
You can if you like. I'm not Jewish, nor am I male.

Shame and Circumcision takes us all the way back to early Genesis when Adam looked down and upon the second time the Bible speaks of this, he is now ashamed.
?? Adam wasn't circumcised.
He was ashamed because he had disobeyed God.

Shame and uncircumcision is the core problem from which humans suffer.
Sin and disobedience to God is the main problem from which people suffer.

Christ then has Work to do . . . the Redeeming Work necessary for Eternal Life to be gained.
Which he did. He said "believe in me" and then went to the cross to reconcile us to God.
Any legitimate "Gospel" is one that speaks of the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ.
Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45. He later asked "should I say, 'Father save me from this hour'? No, it was for this reason I came", John 12:27.
He showed us, by his teachings and miracles, what life would be like in God's kingdom if he were allowed to reign as king, died for our sins and to reconcile us with God.
The effect of all this is that we now have peace with God and are justified by faith, Romans 5:1.

If a person does not agree with terms of the Effect of Christ's Work, then Salvation will not be granted. This is what we were supposed to learn from the below Scripture:

Mark 10:17-22 NKJV - "Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Do you see it? Jesus answered his question "What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" The young man didn't approve of Jesus's terms and conditions, so he went away sad.
Like I said, the man claimed he was keeping the commands, but was in fact only keeping half of them.
He had great wealth, his money was an idol and Jesus told him to give it up and put God first. The man went away feeling sad because he didn't want to do that. He wanted to come to Jesus, but on his terms.
That exact example is not going to apply to everyone, but Jesus still tells his followers to love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. But it is not that saved, or having eternal life, will only be granted on condition that we do those things. That makes God's love conditional - and also makes Jesus out to be a liar because he said that we are not to just love those who will love us back, but be perfect as God is, Matthew 5:46-48.

Now me, I cannot comprehend why anyone who was excited about Eternal Life would be upset that Jesus would tell them to give it all away only to turn and follow Him, Jesus, instead. That would be perfect! I would love to abandon all things and be with Jesus everywhere He went. I would have no need for anything. Perfect! Let's go!
Have you done it then?
This isn't about money as such - it's about giving up anything in our lives that comes before God.
The man said he wanted eternal life and claimed to have kept the commandments, but had only kept half of them.

Why would I be willing? Because I agree with the terms of the Covenant, which is that God will cause Rigtheousness, Purity, Holiness, and the desires that cause us to obey.
Jesus' blood sealed the NEW Covenant that was about the forgiveness of sin.
I would have thought that God's grace, mercy, acceptance, forgiveness and unconditional love would cause most people to want to obey - it did with me. We love because he first loved us 1 John 4:19.
What are the terms and conditions? We need to be ready to answer that question, for if a Transformation is to be expected, a person needs to be aware of it.
No.
Jesus promises forgiveness and eternal life to those who believe in him. His Spirit causes us to come to Jesus and be born again, John 3:3, and anyone who is in Christ is a new creation.
Sanctification is the ongoing process of becoming like Christ, which is, again, a work of the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Once a person is saved and is his child, God may well say "do you love me more than these?" and if our answer is 'no', may challenge us to give them up. They will be idols, standing between us and God.
But Jesus doesn't bargain with us and say "the contract I am about to make with you says that you have to give up ....... in order to benefit from my death. IF you can do that, I will save you and give you eternal life. It's all down to you."

The Good News is that it all started with God - HE showed mercy, grace and love to us. It's not that we do the right things and God says, "ok, you've done your bit; you've kept the terms and conditions; now I will give you eternal life."
That statement would not produce love, joy and peace, but fear, unease and worry that we had not done enough to receive a reward. That statement would cause people to say "I did it MY way" instead of "I owe it all to him."
 
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