Baptism is a work.

[d taylor]

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It does not matter if water baptism is a work or not, there is not a single verse (In The Bible) that states a person must be water baptized to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[Oneofhope]

Once you understand how liberating it is to interpret scripture literally as far as one can, taking context into account, its impossible to ever go back to spiritualizing them.

I like your thinking. One day as I was reading Paul's letter to the Ephesians, his words finally struck my lawyer-like mind, having realized that I couldn't honestly explain what he meant about a hidden Mysterious Plan.

For about four years now my Scriptural focus has been to understand what he meant by that and what that hidden Plan really is. For the Lord to give me this great challenge . . . the deeper context, as you say, surely is 100%.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

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It does not matter if water baptism is a work or not, there is not a single verse (In The Bible) that states a person must be water baptized to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Does that mean one ought not bother to be baptised?

 

[Oneofhope]

All scripture is written FOR you, but not all scripture is written TO you, nor ABOUT you.

Why don't you build an ark now when God instructed Noah to build one in Genesis 6:14?

Even though you don't build one, you don't ignore the book of Genesis because you learn FROM it, would you agree?

That is the same attitude for all scripture.

That was outstanding!

 

[Oneofhope]

Does that mean one ought not bother to be baptised?

I think it means that a person can be saved on the side of Mt Everest where dunking is not possible. I think it means that a person can be wholly saved in the middle of the desert where there is no water.

 

[Guojing]

Does that mean one ought not bother to be baptised?

I think it helps to understand why it was required for the nation of Israel to be water baptized in Jesus's first coming.

That requires understanding to why did Jesus come to that nation during that specific time. (Romans 15:8)

One way to think about is this, if the books of Matthew to Acts was part of the bible that is classified under the Old Testament, and you grew up in that kind of world, will your perspective towards water baptism change in any way?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think it means that a person can be saved on the side of Mt Everest where dunking is not possible. I think it means that a person can be wholly saved in the middle of the desert where there is no water.

You think baptism means dunking? And you think baptism is optional?

 

[Oneofhope]

Question:

What happens to a person who is about to be water baptized by their pastor but their pastor is a false teacher, and not actually a Christian at all? What happens to the person being baptized? Do they still get the same Effectual benefits as if they were to be baptized by a real Pastor?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Question:

What happens to a person who is about to be water baptized by their pastor but their pastor is a false teacher, and not actually a Christian at all? What happens to the person being baptized? Do they still get the same Effectual benefits as if they were to be baptized by a real Pastor?

Are you asking if baptism only works when the one who administers it is godly or does it work simply because God promises it will work?

 

[Oneofhope]

Are you asking if baptism only works when the one who administers it is godly or does it work simply because God promises it will work?

I suppose, yes. I am asking if the baptism extends its Spiritual benefits based upon the heart of the one performing the task. For example, Adolf Hitler allegedly held a form of "christianity." Would baptism be Effectual if Adolf Hitler performed the task?

If you have the time, I'd also be interested in what water baptism gives that the Father, Son, and Spirit give themselves. A list would be great, but if not I understand.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I suppose, yes. I am asking if the baptism extends its Spiritual benefits based upon the heart of the one performing the task. For example, Adolf Hitler allegedly held a form of "christianity." Would baptism be Effectual if Adolf Hitler performed the task?

If you have the time, I'd also be interested in what water baptism gives that the Father, Son, and Spirit give themselves. A list would be great, but if not I understand.

When a sacrament is celebrated according to the norms of the Church and in faith, we believe that it confers the grace it signifies. While a human being is the minister of the sacrament, Christ Himself is the one who is at work: He baptizes, He confirms, He absolves, He changes the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, He unites a couple in marriage, He ordains and He anoints. Acting in His sacraments, Christ communicates the grace — that sharing in the divine life and love of God — offered through each sacrament. (Cf. Catechism, No. 1127-28.)

Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptises, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God." From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

 

[Oneofhope]

When a sacrament is celebrated according to the norms of the Church and in faith, we believe that it confers the grace it signifies. While a human being is the minister of the sacrament, Christ Himself is the one who is at work: He baptizes, He confirms, He absolves, He changes the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, He unites a couple in marriage, He ordains and He anoints. Acting in His sacraments, Christ communicates the grace — that sharing in the divine life and love of God — offered through each sacrament. (Cf. Catechism, No. 1127-28.)

Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptises, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God." From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

I see, and thank you for the information.

Question: Would you say that baptism brings on the Circumcision of Christ?

Colossians 2:10-15 NLT - "So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I see, and thank you for the information.

Question: Would you say that baptism brings on the Circumcision of Christ?

Colossians 2:10-15 NLT - "So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

I have no idea; where are you going with this?

 

[Strong in Him]

That was not the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus and the 12 were preaching at his first coming.

Jesus came to show us what God is like. He came to preach the Good News to the poor, proclaim freedom for prisoners, recovery of sight to the blind, freedom for the oppressed and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour, Luke 4:18-19.
Jesus did this by casting out demons, welcoming the outcast, healing the blind and those oppressed and damaged by illness. He sent, firstly his disciples and then 72 others, out to do the same. That is what life looks like when God reigns as king; the Kingdom of God is anywhere that God is proclaimed as king. Jesus taught that the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. He taught that we are to seek God's kingdom above all else, Matthew 6:33 and that it is like a man who found a valuable pearl and wanted it so much that he sold all his possessions, Matthew 13:45-46.

Jesus certainly did speak of his death and resurrection. He predicted it several times, he told his disciples that unless a grain of wheat fell to the ground and died, it remained only a single grain. He said that he had come to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, and to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10. At the last supper he said that his blood would be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins; before his birth an angel told Joseph he would save people from their sins, Matthew 1:21. John the Baptist testified that Jesus was the Lamb of God who would take away the dins of the world, John 1:29.
Jesus also told his disciples about his resurrection and that he was going away so that the Holy Spirit could come and live in them, John 14:15-31.

Jesus didn't start his ministry by preaching that he would die, but he dd teach it and said that was why he had come.
There is no "Gospel of the Kingdom v Paul's Gospel". Paul preached Jesus as the only way to God; Jesus said that he is the only way to the Father.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm sorry, but that isn't the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ. There are terms and conditions that a person must agree with and submit to.

We need to believe in, and accept, Jesus - end of.

 

[Oneofhope]

I have no idea; where are you going with this?

Because I am trying to understand which sacrament brings on which spiritual gift.

 

[Guojing]

There is no "Gospel of the Kingdom v Paul's Gospel". Paul preached Jesus as the only way to God; Jesus said that he is the only way to the Father.

Of course if you make it very general, saying that both gospels are about Jesus being the only way, you are absolutely correct.

So it all boils down to whether you want to be precise, or general.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, for one thing, we no longer preach obedience to the Law of Moses, as Jesus did in Matthew, so no one today is obeying the Matthew's version completely to teach "them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you".

Jesus didn't command even his disciples, never mind Gentiles, to obey the law of Moses.

So no, it was an instruction to the 12 only.

If it had been an instruction to the 12 only, how on earth would anyone else have come to hear the Gospel? The disciples did not live forever - who would have told others, and us, about Jesus after they died? And why would Matthew have included a private command - for 11 people only - in his Gospel, which he wrote so that future generations would know about Jesus?

Are you certain that when you meet God, he asks you how you have practised the Great Commission and you reply "well I didn't because it was only for the 11 disciples" (Judas wasn't around then and Matthias hadn't been appointed), that God will reply "well done good and faithful servant"?

 

[Oneofhope]

We need to believe in, and accept, Jesus - end of.

Yikes, but okie doke.

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course if you make it very general, saying that both gospels are about Jesus being the only way, you are absolutely correct.

So it all boils down to whether you want to be precise, or general.

Paul himself says that there is only ONE Gospel.