Baptism is a work.

[Oneofhope]

In Acts 2:36, Peter accused Israel of crucifying their Messiah, a national sin, and gave them the good news that if they are willing to repent of that sin and be baptized (Acts 2:38), they can still save themselves from the wrath that is to come in Daniel's 70th week (Acts 2:40, Acts 2:16-21).

That is certainly not the good news Paul was preaching to us gentiles in Ephesians 1-3, if you read what he said properly.

The 2 good news are not the same.

Ok, thanks. I don't quite understand why we're conversing about this but . . . whew.

 

[Guojing]

It seems that one must also be willing to believe in order to actually believe, is that a work?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The literal reading of this statement by Paul made it clear that believe is "worketh not".

Would you agree?

 

[Guojing]

Ok, thanks. I don't quite understand why we're conversing about this but . . . whew.

You forgot what you earlier posted?

2ndTimothyGroup said:
Acts 2:23 NLT - "But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him."

The whole world is the audience.

Ephesians 3:6 NLT - "And this is God's plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God's children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus."

By bolding those words, you are making a claim that God's plan revealed by Peter in Acts 2, is equivalent to God's plan revealed by Paul in Ephesians 3.

That is why we are conversing about this

 

[Oneofhope]

Will you explain how these thousands of Jews BAPTIZED unto Moses unto the CLOUD , unto the SEA ,

ONE is very easy as it was the EGYPTIANS who got wet and drowned .

You are avoiding how they were BAPTIZED unto Moses ?

And why was Jesus water baptized ?

And in 1 Cor 15:29 , HOW WERE THEY BAPTIZED FOR THE DEAD ?

dan p

What is more . . . what did the baptism of the Red Sea do for the Blessed Jews? What did parting the Jordan River do for the Israelites? What did the flood do for the earth as it was baptized in water? Did the water purify the earth of sin? No, it did not.

If anything, Scripture tells us that water baptism by itself does not save a person Eternally. Bodies of water have a role in Salvation, but baptism by water to Eternally save is not a Biblical principle . . . anywhere.

 

[Oneofhope]

You forgot what you earlier posted?

I suppose so.

By bolding those words, you are making a claim that God's plan revealed by Peter in Acts 2, is equivalent to God's plan revealed by Paul in Ephesians 3.

That is why we are conversing about this

Oh, ok. Well now I know why I'm confused. That happens when I'm taken out of context and not understood. But that's cool. I have no desire to untwist the licorice.

 

[Strong in Him]

So when human beings participate, you don't think they are working?

That's stretching it somewhat, isn't it?
Is walking/driving to church a work?
Is preaching a sermon a work? What about worshipping God; singing in a choir and practising hymns?
Are opening the Bible/making notes in a journal/memorising Scripture, works?

If so, then the implication seems to be that they shouldn't allowed.

 

[Guojing]

That's stretching it somewhat, isn't it?
Is walking/driving to church a work?
Is preaching a sermon a work? What about worshipping God; singing in a choir and practising hymns?
Are opening the Bible/making notes in a journal/memorising Scripture, works?

If so, then the implication seems to be that they shouldn't allowed.

Yes they are all works to me.

Works are for rewards, just not for salvation

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes they are all works to me.

?? So they are wrong, or not allowed?

Works are for rewards, just not for salvation

Works aren't for salvation at all.
The things I mentioned are all about day to day Christian living.
And of course we are to do works - once we ARE saved, but not to BE saved.

 

[Guojing]

?? So they are wrong, or not allowed?

Works aren't for salvation at all.
The things I mentioned are all about day to day Christian living.
And of course we are to do works - once we ARE saved, but not to BE saved.

As long as you agree that water baptism is a work, we are in agreement.

I never said it was wrong to work

 

[Strong in Him]

As long as you agree that water baptism is a work, we are in agreement.

No, it's not a work; it's a response, in faith, to the work of salvation that has been done in us.

What are your answers to my questions? Are you doing a work when you walk/drive to church? If so, what does that mean for you?
I know you didn't say it was wrong to work. But the subject of "works" seems to cause a panic in some people - i.e "is this a work; should I be doing it?" It is implied, or sometimes stated, that works is the opposite of faith, and not something we should be involved in.

 

[Guojing]

No, it's not a work; it's a response, in faith, to the work of salvation that has been done in us.

What are your answers to my questions? Are you doing a work when you walk/drive to church? If so, what does that mean for you?
I know you didn't say it was wrong to work. But the subject of "works" seems to cause a panic in some people - i.e "is this a work; should I be doing it?" It is implied, or sometimes stated, that works is the opposite of faith, and not something we should be involved in.

I already said they are all works.

Anything that requires Man to do something, its a work.

Romans 4:5 made it clear, to me, that faith is believing God, without works.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The literal reading of this statement by Paul made it clear that believe is "worketh not".

Would you agree?

I do agree.

To him that worketh not, but is baptised by him who justifies the ungodly, his baptism will be counted as righteousness.

 

[Guojing]

I do agree.

To him that worketh not, but is baptised by him who justifies the ungodly, his baptism will be counted as righteousness.

You must have wished you had the authority to add and change scripture?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You must have wished you had the authority to add and change scripture?

why?

 

[Guojing]

why?

You "agreed" and then you proceed to alter the scripture verse I used.

 

[Strong in Him]

I already said they are all works.

Anything that requires Man to do something, its a work.

Romans 4:5 made it clear, to me, that faith is believing God, without works.

In that case you could argue that raising your hand to indicate that you want to accept Christ, is a work.
Or going forward for prayer is a work.
Someone might say "if I hadn't gone to that church service/turned on the radio when that song was playing, I wouldn't be saved.
Of course it is God who works in a person to prompt them to go to church, ask for prayer, raise their hand, find a vicar to ask questions or how they can become a Christian. Going forward, raising a hand etc is a response to that inner prompting - even if the person doesn't know where it comes from.

Romans 6:23, the gift of God is eternal life - a person has to receive a gift or it's not theirs.
Luke 11:13, how much more will God give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him. We have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit. In fact, a word that Paul uses is in the continual present tense - keep on being filled with the Spirit.
Matthew 6:11, give us, each day, our daily bread - we are to ask daily for what we need.
If these are all works, then we cannot be saved without works. But the notion that someone is saved by their works will imply that they might be able to be saved/get to heaven by going enough good deeds, and faith isn't needed. Which is the opposite of Christian teaching.

 

[Guojing]

In that case you could argue that raising your hand to indicate that you want to accept Christ, is a work.
Or going forward for prayer is a work.
Someone might say "if I hadn't gone to that church service/turned on the radio when that song was playing, I wouldn't be saved.
Of course it is God who works in a person to prompt them to go to church, ask for prayer, raise their hand, find a vicar to ask questions or how they can become a Christian. Going forward, raising a hand etc is a response to that inner prompting - even if the person doesn't know where it comes from.

Romans 6:23, the gift of God is eternal life - a person has to receive a gift or it's not theirs.
Luke 11:13, how much more will God give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him. We have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit. In fact, a word that Paul uses is in the continual present tense - keep on being filled with the Spirit.
Matthew 6:11, give us, each day, our daily bread - we are to ask daily for what we need.
If these are all works, then we cannot be saved without works. But the notion that someone is saved by their works will imply that they might be able to be saved/get to heaven by going enough good deeds, and faith isn't needed. Which is the opposite of Christian teaching.

"Accepting Christ" is not required for salvation.

You don't need to raise your hand to be saved.

You believe the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and you are saved.

You understand the difference?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You must have wished you had the authority to add and change scripture?

why?

You "agreed" and then you proceed to alter the scripture verse I used.

That is not correct.

 

[Strong in Him]

"Accepting Christ" is not required for salvation.

John 1:12, as many as received him and believed on his name, he gave the right to become child of God.
Colossians 2:6, just as you received Christ as Lord, continue to live in him.

You don't need to raise your hand to be saved.

Of course you don't raise your hand TO be saved - yet some preachers preach the Gospel and then ask people to raise their hand if they want to respond/have responded. This is partly so the stewards can pray with them or put them in touch with a church/other believers.
It is possible for someone to hear the Gospel, respond and be saved. But what do they do then about finding a church, reading the Bible? Or do they just say "I'm saved, thanks vey much; I'll go and live how I like"?

You believe the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and you are saved.

Interesting that you chose that passage, which doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit.
Yet unless a person is born again, they cannot enter the Kingdom of God, John 3:3.

 

[Guojing]

John 1:12, as many as received him and believed on his name, he gave the right to become child of God.
Colossians 2:6, just as you received Christ as Lord, continue to live in him.

Of course you don't raise your hand TO be saved - yet some preachers preach the Gospel and then ask people to raise their hand if they want to respond/have responded. This is partly so the stewards can pray with them or put them in touch with a church/other believers.
It is possible for someone to hear the Gospel, respond and be saved. But what do they do then about finding a church, reading the Bible? Or do they just say "I'm saved, thanks vey much; I'll go and live how I like"?


Interesting that you chose that passage, which doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit.
Yet unless a person is born again, they cannot enter the Kingdom of God, John 3:3.

We have engaged many times before.

You forgotten that I take Paul as our apostle and the gospel that the ascended Christ revealed to him, is the only gospel that saves today?