Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Ana the Ist]

As I wrote in a prior thread:

"To destroy Hamas, Isreal is aiming to destroy the underground tunnel network that covers the entirety of Gaza. Given how extensive the network is and Hamas' propensity to locate their high value military targets near mosque, hospitals etc, Israel is faced with the challenge of how to destroy the tunnels while minimizing human life. It also appears Israel has no inention of sending it's troops into the tunnels given the high risk factor. In the case of the Jabaliya neighborhood, at least two 2,000-pound bombs were used in a densely populated area. The human toll from such a decion would be obvious to the Israeli government.

Israel state's it was targetting a high level Hamas commander as well as tunnel infrastrcure.

Is killing so many civilians justfified? I'm not convinced it is.

Once more, given the situation, we'll see many more Jabaliya like bombings in the days and weeks ahead. Thousands of civilians will die as a result."

The law of armed conflict says the incidental killing of and harm to civilians and damage to objects must not exceed the direct military advantage to be gained. The Geneva Conventions, the widely accepted basis for international humanitarian law and codes of warfare, were adopted in 1949 with the aim of preventing governments from inflicting the level of mass casualties of World War II.

I don't know if you noticed...but nobody really obeys the laws of armed conflict. Even we don't. Nobody gets punished for it really unless they lose and are deemed war criminals in exile.

There's a certain reality to war that simply has to be accepted, and was denied after the horrors of WW2. This isn't a moral endeavor.

If you're wondering why Israel has gone to such extreme lengths....consider the massive increase in support for Palestine worldwide, even after October 7th. They don't want there to he a "next time" and have some foreign adversary intervene. It seems as if they intend to remove the people of Gaza as a problem entirely.

It's the right choice given the circumstances.

 

[truthpls]

But it was a fine excuse for terror then or from a sufficiently "believing nation" now?

When God judges the wicked (even if He uses wicked people) that is not terrorism that is love. When man wars that is evil.

 

[Desk trauma]

When God judges the wicked (even if He uses wicked people) that is not terrorism that is love. When man wars that is evil.

First time I have seen genocide called love.

 

[Vanellus]

It's not a good idea for any Palestinian to be mentally disabled in the West Bank - mercifully this human being was shot in the leg rather than the head. That's what you get if you've forgotten your id.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/mentally-disabled-man-shot-west-bank

The Israel Defense Forces has launched an investigation after a video emerged of an Israeli soldier shooting and wounding a mentally disabled Palestinian near the occupied West Bank city of Hebron.

Tarek Abu Abed, known to friends and family as “Ghazzawi,” was on his way home Tuesday when he was stopped by three soldiers and asked for identification, Tarek’s brother Diaa Abu Abed told CNN by telephone on Tuesday.

“Anybody who meets Tarek can tell immediately he has special needs,” Diaa Abu Abed said. “His brain works like a child’s does.”

 

[Philip_B]

I don't know if you noticed...but nobody really obeys the laws of armed conflict. Even we don't. Nobody gets punished for it really unless they lose and are deemed war criminals in exile.

There's a certain reality to war that simply has to be accepted, and was denied after the horrors of WW2. This isn't a moral endeavor.

If you're wondering why Israel has gone to such extreme lengths....consider the massive increase in support for Palestine worldwide, even after October 7th. They don't want there to he a "next time" and have some foreign adversary intervene. It seems as if they intend to remove the people of Gaza as a problem entirely.

It's the right choice given the circumstances.

The last, and possibly next, President of the USA spoke about commensurate response. We now find that many of us question if the IDF has not gone beyond a commensurate response.

 

[rjs330]

The bible tells us what He is like. Jesus loves the children

Jesus also loves the Hama fighters who murdered children and raped women. He loves the Israeli soldiers and the Israeli government making the the war on Hamas. I don't think he desires peace among all men. But that is only going to happen when Jesus Returns to rule. Until then things just keep matching forward.

We already know. He will cast them in a bed of great tribulation

As he does with everyone on earth.

Such as David fighting Goliath etc. Not mass murdering children

Yes and like the destruction of Jericho and the Amalekites. God himself destroyed babies.

There in no comparison. They used to have God and be believers. The people in the land were very wicked and God was involved. Today they are on their own leaning on their own arm and weapons and in unbelief.

Yes the are living in unbelief as a nation. Yet there are still faithful Jews and Christians there. The Palestinians are very wicked.

We know how it finishes. 2/3 of Jewish people will die. That is the bible.

We also know that the armies that attack Israel are completely wiped out. And Jesus helps Israel do it. I would say he's really the one that does it. So Israel enemies are the one that need to mind their ps and qs.

False in the extreme. Israel HAS NO 'biblical mandate' except to repent and believe in Jesus. You cannot blame God. Period

No it's true. That's all governments mandates. Israels government is meeting it's mandates as a government. Hamas is not.

Wicked meaning unbelievers. (not the enemies of unbelievers' children)

All children are born into wickedness. They come from the womb with lying lips. They are not innocent in God's eyes. That's why he wiped them out.

Okay with that said I don't feel it's right to specifically target babies and children. If you are walking up to babies and killing them like Hamas did with deliberance and a desire to specifically kill children then I don't support that in the least. And if Israel did the exact same thing I would be opposed to that methodology as well. But I am afraid I don't see it the same way. I won't explain it to you as it has been explained to you umpteen times. We will just have to disagree

As do all unbelieving nations. Yet the carnage is so extreme that even the other beastly governments are repulsed.

No I think they are anti-Semetic.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The Bible also contains stories of killing everyone but the virgin girls among the POWs and taking those as spoils of war, not the best source to argue for pacifism from.

Which ones?....chapters of the Bible that is.

 

[Desk trauma]

Which ones?....chapters of the Bible that is.

Numbers 31

 

[civilwarbuff]

engage any critical thought on multiple philosophical levels (i.e. philosophical here includes ETHICS!!!)

Ahh, applying human 'ethics' to God......Is that the beginning of a joke?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The last, and possibly next, President of the USA spoke about commensurate response. We now find that many of us question if the IDF has not gone beyond a commensurate response.

I'm not going to look up commensurate for an accurate definition. I'll just assume it is the same as "proportionality" and it's in fashion because too many dumb people have used the word proportionality wrong in recent years.

On 9/11 thousands died. Awful day of terrorism. Our response was by no means proportional. We destroyed the stability of 2 nations and laid low millions in the process, the civilian and combatant fatalities we inflicted, including those deprived of basic necessities, far exceeded those dead on 9/11. We burned poppy fields, caused a heroin shortage, and fueled the fentanyl crisis in our own nation. We allied with pedophile warlords who kept boys as sex slaves on our own military bases.

We had more veterans who returned home and killed themselves than died on the battlefield.

We don't actually believe in proportionality. We claim to fight moral wars and if you believe we try....we fail. I would suggest we limit wars to those which are absolutely necessary only...only existential threats, and treat war like the dirty pitiless business it actually is. We might find ourselves doing it less often...and more successfully.

As it stands, we are in no place to critique Israel and their methods.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Numbers 31

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.


15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. (my highlight in red) 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Then I assume you think it would have been better to kill them then? That's what Moses had expected them to do. It seems to me God saved their lives even though they (the Midianite women) stood in opposition to Him. BTW, if you really read the OT one of the main the reasons God demanded the death of so many peoples is so they could not lead Israel away from God in the future. Israel's disobedience in this (taking foreign wives) led them astray from God on more that one occasion in the future).

Since this is certainly off topic I will stop here and not reply to any further statements on this subject.

 

[Bradskii]

When God judges the wicked (even if He uses wicked people) that is not terrorism that is love. When man wars that is evil.

'They're killing everyone!'
'But they said that God told them to'.
'Oh. My bad. Sorry to have interrupted'.

 

[Bradskii]

If you are walking up to babies and killing them like Hamas did with deliberance and a desire to specifically kill children then I don't support that in the least. And if Israel did the exact same thing I would be opposed to that methodology as well.

Luckily for you that they found a different method, eh?

 

[rjs330]

Didn't belive Hamas. Didn't believe the Ministry of Health. Didn't believe the Red Cross. Didn't believe Medicine sans Frontiere. Will all those in the previous group like to say if they'll accept what Israel now says?

Who is going to start the countdown for any variation of 'But it's Hamas' fault.'

Yeah. We know! Everyone keeps reminding us of that but we know. But you kept denying the deaths. We kept telling you they were considered reasonably accurate. You didn't want to accept them. We kept saying they are not acceptable. But it's been fingers in the ears and 'La la la' all through the thread.

And check out the desperate phraseology: 'I'm not saying it's not bad...' Yeah, buddy. You're now on board with the rest of the world who have also been suggesting something along those lines, but more succinctly. More direct. With a little less use of the double negative. As in 'It is bad.'

First of all those numbers have not been verified. Israel's briefing specifically states they believed the numbers around 5000 Hamas soldiers deaths were correct. The other numbers are STILL drawn from Hamas and not Israel.

The anti-Semetic reporters states there was an implication that the numbers were correct. However Conricus stated the IDF could not confirm the civilian numbers from the news reports. They have NO way of knowing how many civilians were killed by Hamas. In fact we know Hamas was shooting at their own civilians who were trying to evacuate. We also have no idea how many civilians were aiding a abetting Hamas in support of Hamas.

So, while we know and have never denied civilians have died. We have been skeptical of the numbers and that the numbers accurately reflected direct Israeli caused deaths.

But let's for arguments sake say that all the civilian deaths are accurate and furthermore say that every single one was caused by the military. Considering the circumstances of the war in urban terrain, with terrorist army who looks exactly like the civilians, who fight from civilian buildings including hospitals, use civilian transportation including ambulances and use civilian human shields the death toll is less than might be expected.
But first we have to still consider the civilian deaths are not confirmed. You might be able to confirm Hamas deaths when in direct combat with IDF. What you don't know is how many civilians deaths are actually Hamas deaths of those who are NOT in direct combat. You don't know how many were aiding and abetting Hamas. You also don't know how many were killed by Hamas themselves.

So bottom line we still don't know that accuracy of these numbers being "innocent civilians". Or the accuracy of these numbers period.

We will see if the next phases of the battle are exactly the same. We also know there are a couple of areas in Gaza or Gaza City where Hamas has fortified that haven't been hit yet. We will see the outcome of those battles when they finally occur.

 

[civilwarbuff]

'But they said that God told them to'.

Who claimed that?......or are you just making something up in order to stir the pot a little?

 

[rjs330]

Unfortunately, Israel's approach has been self-defeating up to this point, and the number of terrorists at its borders will be higher at the end of this war than it was at the beginning.

We honestly won't know if it's self defeating until it's over. Right now it's only speculation.

 

[rjs330]

Yes, I agree that is the goal. However, Israel is facing a unique situation. Hamas has tunnels everywhere...and as a result, Hamas fighters can appear anywhere. Israel has been attempting to destroy the tunnel network through arial bombing, which of course takes out all the civilian buildings above. It's unknown how effective this strategy has been (from a military perspective). Afterall, the only way to know is to go into the tunnel network - a task that still remains. Israel still only "controls" 1/3 of Gaza City (in the North) according to the latest reporting. Every tunnel and buidling will have to be cleared. I suspect it will take months, if not years to take out Hamas. In the meantime, 2 million people have no where to go.

It's hell on earth.

As most places are when war is going on.

 

[Desk trauma]

Then I assume you think it would have been better to kill them then?

An incorrect assumption like usual.

That's what Moses had expected them to do. It seems to me God saved their lives even though they (the Midianite women) stood in opposition to Him. BTW, if you really read the OT one of the main the reasons God demanded the death of so many peoples is so they could not lead Israel away from God in the future. Israel's disobedience in this (taking foreign wives) led them astray from God on more that one occasion in the future).

A perfectly rational response to differing ideas from a all knowing being.

 

[rjs330]

Bin Laden was surrounded by female relatives and children. As discussed previously, the United States deliberately chose to not drop a bomb on the site, due in part to the number of civilian casualties that would ensue.

I think we addressed this before. Not sure why you keep bringing it up. Bin-Laden was the hunt for one man. This is a war against an entire terrorist army and their supporters.

A unit of 5-6 men can't take out Hamas leaving all civilians in the area intact.

 

[rjs330]

Luckily for you that they found a different method, eh?

Yeah because they aren't deliberately killing babies and raping women and burning them alive plus all the other horrors of the day.

The civilians who have died are collateral damage in a theater of war in urban areas with a non-uniformed, terrorist organization who are using civilians as shields and civilians who are involved in support of Hamas who looks just like them.

Yeah, not even remotely the same thing.