Israel-Hamas Thread II

[wing2000]

It's similar to criticizing the United States pursuit of Bin Laden, except Bin Laden wasn't holding hostages. There were always be some who think such a reaction was unjust.

The US played into Al Qaeda's objectives by over-reacting and occupying Afghanistan for two decades....not to mention invading another country (Iraq). The US validated Al Qaeda's talking points. I'm afraid Israel is making the same mistake with Hamas.

 

[Bradskii]

Two civilian deaths for each Hamas fighter in Gaza, Israel admits​

[this is (I have heard) the first official Israeli estimate (albeit implied) on civilian deaths in Gaza.]

Asked about media reports that 5,000 Hamas fighters had been killed, one of the senior officials told reporters at a briefing: "The numbers are more or less right.

"I'm not saying it's not bad that we have a ratio of 2 to 1."

[suggesting 15,000 total deaths, of which 5,000 were Hamas fighters. This agrees reasonably well with the Gazan Health Ministry estimates of 15,900.]

Didn't belive Hamas. Didn't believe the Ministry of Health. Didn't believe the Red Cross. Didn't believe Medicine sans Frontiere. Will all those in the previous group like to say if they'll accept what Israel now says?

Who is going to start the countdown for any variation of 'But it's Hamas' fault.'

Yeah. We know! Everyone keeps reminding us of that but we know. But you kept denying the deaths. We kept telling you they were considered reasonably accurate. You didn't want to accept them. We kept saying they are not acceptable. But it's been fingers in the ears and 'La la la' all through the thread.

And check out the desperate phraseology: 'I'm not saying it's not bad...' Yeah, buddy. You're now on board with the rest of the world who have also been suggesting something along those lines, but more succinctly. More direct. With a little less use of the double negative. As in 'It is bad.'

 

[Bradskii]

Did Israel provide any indication there are 15,000 total deaths? All it means is that so far 5000 of the maybe 25,000 Hamas terrorists have been eliminated. There are a lot more to go.

How's your maths?

"I'm not saying it's not bad that we have a ratio of 2 to 1."

 

[Bradskii]

And here's a doozy from the previous link:

'The map is used to coordinate efforts to warn civilians to leave certain areas ahead of impending strikes via text messages, phone calls, leaflet drops and other announcements, and to track the effectiveness of such messaging in real time.'

Presumably all the messages have an addendum: 'Note - if you are a Hamas terrorist, please ignore this note.'

 

[Bradskii]

It's similar to criticizing the United States pursuit of Bin Laden, except Bin Laden wasn't holding hostages. There were always be some who think such a reaction was unjust.

What an utterly nonsensical comparison.

 

[truthpls]

You may consider it a terrorist state, but I don't know that God does.

The bible tells us what He is like. Jesus loves the children

I think I'll just wait to see what God does before jumping to conclusions. You might be surprised.

We already know. He will cast them in a bed of great tribulation

There Bible says there is a time for war.

Such as David fighting Goliath etc. Not mass murdering children

And as we saw in Israel war was a brutal barbaric thing. Still is.

There in no comparison. They used to have God and be believers. The people in the land were very wicked and God was involved. Today they are on their own leaning on their own arm and weapons and in unbelief.

That's why it should be avoided. But Hamas elected not to. They started it and Israel better finish it.

We know how it finishes. 2/3 of Jewish people will die. That is the bible.

Israel is meeting it's biblical mandate to deal with evil doers.

False in the extreme. Israel HAS NO 'biblical mandate' except to repent and believe in Jesus. You cannot blame God. Period

Gods sword of vengeance upon a wicked people.

Wicked meaning unbelievers. (not the enemies of unbelievers' children)

As Christians we should strive as much as it is in us and I live peaceably with all men. As a government Israel is not under the same obligation because they have a different mandate.

As do all unbelieving nations. Yet the carnage is so extreme that even the other beastly governments are repulsed.

 

[Robban]

I remember about Netanyahu referring to Amalek. Your posts would benefit from being more clearly expressed.

I remember the Eddystone shortwave radio,
spin the knob and you would pick up as many radio stations,

So maybe it is about tuning in.

 

[o_mlly]

You first have to assume that what Israel has done is bad. And for heaven sake even if it is there are measures of bad correct. If if I punch you in the face that's bad right? If I shove an Ice pick through your eye again that's much worse correct?

It's always been this way. No one I don't think has said all immoral choices are equal. Just as all punishments or justice is not either.

So is Israel doing something immoral or measuring out justice based upon what Hamas has done through the years being supported by the rest of Gaza?

Israel's response cannot be proportionate. A proportionate response would require Israel to target, rape, kidnap, torture, murder and mutilate innocent persons. Yet, Israel must defend its citizens against this immoral enemy using moral means.

An adequate defense requires Israel to target the Hamas soldiers in structures that otherwise would presumably be innocent but in fact are engaged to create harm to innocent Israelis. Israel's moral question becomes not to save all innocent lives, for that is not probable, but to save as many innocent lives as possible giving equal weight to innocent Palestinian and Israeli lives. And that is a prudential judgment.

 

[Desk trauma]

The bible tells us what He is like. Jesus loves the children

The Bible also contains stories of killing everyone but the virgin girls among the POWs and taking those as spoils of war, not the best source to argue for pacifism from.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Bible also contains stories of killing everyone but the virgin girls among the POWs and taking those as spoils of war, not the best source to argue for pacifism from.

... if only this was an open Apologetics forum. **sigh** But alas, .................................... 'tis not!

 

[JosephZ]

As stated before, sometimes a country needs to go to war. This is one of those time imo. And they better win it if they have any hope for peace. And I hey better do what it takes during a war to win it.

Unfortunately, Israel's approach has been self-defeating up to this point, and the number of terrorists at its borders will be higher at the end of this war than it was at the beginning.

 

[Desk trauma]

... if only this was an open Apologetics forum. **sigh** But alas, .................................... 'tis not!

Mores the pitty, would love some elongated word salads about how it's ok to kill everyone except the girls with intact hymens and how that's totes not an atrocity at all much less one similar to the ones Hamas committed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Mores the pitty, would love some elongated word salads about how it's ok to kill everyone except the girls with intact hymens and how that's totes not an atrocity at all much less one similar to the ones Hamas committed.

Those "word salads" have already been presented and expended long ago, elsewhere. And the insinuation I was attempting to make in my previous point was essentially this: you know damn well that I can't respond to you here ... and IF I were to respond, it wouldn't be with the all too typical cliche apologetic blather often gargled and spit on the pavement at the toes of atheists who refuse to engage any critical thought on multiple philosophical levels (i.e. philosophical here includes ETHICS!!!)

 

[wing2000]

An adequate defense requires Israel to target the Hamas soldiers in structures that otherwise would presumably be innocent but in fact are engaged to create harm to innocent Israelis. Israel's moral question becomes not to save all innocent lives, for that is not probable, but to save as many innocent lives as possible giving equal weight to innocent Palestinian and Israeli lives. And that is a prudential judgment.

Yes, I agree that is the goal. However, Israel is facing a unique situation. Hamas has tunnels everywhere...and as a result, Hamas fighters can appear anywhere. Israel has been attempting to destroy the tunnel network through arial bombing, which of course takes out all the civilian buildings above. It's unknown how effective this strategy has been (from a military perspective). Afterall, the only way to know is to go into the tunnel network - a task that still remains. Israel still only "controls" 1/3 of Gaza City (in the North) according to the latest reporting. Every tunnel and buidling will have to be cleared. I suspect it will take months, if not years to take out Hamas. In the meantime, 2 million people have no where to go.

It's hell on earth.

 

[Desk trauma]

Those "word salads" have already been presented and expended long ago, elsewhere. And the insinuation I was attempting to make in my previous point was essentially this: you know damn well that I can't respond to you here ... and IF I were to respond, it wouldn't be with the all too typical cliche apologetic blather often gargled and spit on the pavement at the toes of atheists who refuse to engage any critical thought on multiple philosophical levels (i.e. philosophical here includes ETHICS!!!)

Feel better?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Feel better?

Yes. Much better now.

 

[Desk trauma]

Yes. Much better now.

Pity you could only gloat about the quality of your word salads rather then actually post them.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Pity you could only gloat about the quality of your word salads rather then actually post them.

Yes, it is a pity that in this forum we can't talk about some old ancient, tattered Jewish stories from the past that we call "the Bible.

 

[Desk trauma]

Yes, it is a pity that in this forum we can't talk about some old ancient, tattered Jewish stories from the past that we call "the Bible.

How bad can it be? You get to celebrate the success of your screeds without having to trouble yourself to type them out or deal with responses to them.

 

[essentialsaltes]

It's similar to criticizing the United States pursuit of Bin Laden, except Bin Laden wasn't holding hostages.

Bin Laden was surrounded by female relatives and children. As discussed previously, the United States deliberately chose to not drop a bomb on the site, due in part to the number of civilian casualties that would ensue.