Israel-Hamas Thread II

[2PhiloVoid]

How bad can it be? You get to celebrate the success of your screeds without having to trouble yourself to type them out or deal with responses to them.

What do you mean "how bad can it be"? What?! .... either you're obfuscating or we're talking passed each other here.

 

[Desk trauma]

What do you mean "how bad can it be"?

That or so bad you can’t post your word salad here. You still get to gloat about its quality without the effort of typing it out.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That or so bad you can’t post your word salad here. You still get to gloat about its quality without the effort of typing it out.

OK. What part of "this specific forum ISN'T open for apologetics" (i.e. Bible Talk) don't you understand?

 

[Desk trauma]

OK. What part of "this specific forum ISN'T open for apologetics" (i.e. Bible Talk) don't you understand?

Understood just fine. Hence you can only tell us how wonderful the salad will be not post it.

 

[Vanellus]

Jerusalem Post insults the father of a 5 month old baby by falsely alleging that it was a doll. The 5 month old baby was killed in an Israeli air strike

False claims dead Palestinian baby was 'a doll' go viral on social media in the Israel-Hamas disinformation war​

False claims dead Palestinian baby was 'a doll' go viral on social media in the Israel-Hamas disinformation war

The fact that it was a real baby is supported by several independent sources. This is part of the dehumanize the Palestinian so it's ok to kill them narrative.

JP belatedly withdrew the smear of the father of the killed 5 month old baby​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Understood just fine. Hence you can only tell us how wonderful the salad will be not post it.

Alright. Continue to enjoy the view, all perched as you are on that stone parapet up there ...

 

[truthpls]

The Bible also contains stories of killing everyone but the virgin girls among the POWs and taking those as spoils of war, not the best source to argue for pacifism from.

That was God judging the wicked and protecting a believing nation, NO relation to unbelieving Israel today. Israel can no more use that as an excuse for terror than any other nation on earth can

 

[Desk trauma]

That was God judging the wicked and protecting a believing nation, NO relation to unbelieving Israel today. Israel can no more use that as an excuse for terror than any other nation on earth can

But it was a fine excuse for terror then or from a sufficiently "believing nation" now?

 

[essentialsaltes]

U.S. pulling visas from Jewish Israeli settlers who attack West Bank Palestinians​

The Biden administration on Tuesday announced it was banning dozens of Jewish Israeli settlers from traveling to the U.S. because of their involvement in brutal attacks on Palestinians in the occupied West Bank aimed at driving people from their homes and taking away their land.

“We have underscored to the Israeli government the need to do more to hold accountable extremist settlers who have committed violent attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank,” Blinken said in a statement.

U.S. officials said they were taking action because Israel has largely failed to arrest, prosecute or punish settlers who have burned Palestinian homes and olive groves, stolen their sheep and shot members of Palestinian families.

A number of West Bank Palestinians who have engaged in violence against Israelis will also be subject to the visa ban, U.S. officials said. The number is smaller because Israel usually arrests Palestinian offenders while ignoring the Jewish settlers guilty of similar crimes, U.S. officials said.

U.S. officials have referred to the settlers’ actions in the West Bank as Jewish terrorism. They said they are confident they have enough evidence to choose which settlers to ban, even though they have not faced an Israeli court.

 

[Vanellus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/03/gaza-premature-babies-dead-nasr/

Israel’s assault forced a nurse to leave babies behind. They were found decomposing.​

The nurse in the besieged hospital was caring for five fragile babies. Infants, born premature, their parents’ whereabouts after a month of war unknown. Now he faced the most difficult decision of his life.

It was the height of Israel’s assault on northern Gaza last month, and al-Nasr Children’s Hospital was a war zone. The day before, airstrikes had cut off the Gaza City facility’s oxygen supplies. Israeli tanks had surrounded the hospital complex, and the Israel Defense Forces were calling and texting the doctors, urging them to leave.
But ambulances couldn’t safely reach al-Nasr to transport the wounded, and doctors refused to leave the facility without their patients.

The five premature babies were particularly vulnerable. They needed oxygen, and medication administered at regular intervals. There were no portable respirators or incubators to transport them. Without life support, the nurse feared, they wouldn’t survive an evacuation.
Then the IDF delivered an ultimatum, al-Nasr director Bakr Qaoud told The Washington Post: Get out or be bombarded. An Israeli official, meanwhile, provided an assurance that ambulances would be arranged to retrieve the patients.
The nurse, a Palestinian man who works with Paris-based Doctors Without Borders, saw no choice. He assessed his charges and picked up the strongest one — the baby he thought likeliest to bear a temporary cut to his oxygen supply. He left the other four on their breathing machines, reluctantly, and with his wife, their children and the one baby, headed south.
Two weeks later, the pause in hostilities allowed a Gazan journalist to venture into the hospital. In the neonatal intensive care unit, Mohammed Balousha made the awful discovery.
[details of the awful discovery which can be read in the WP article]
The grim discovery was a reminder of the harrowing civilian toll of Israel’s war to eradicate Hamas, a campaign that has spared neither hospitals nor children. Thousands have been killed.

I'm hoping no one here will dismiss these babies as mere collateral damage.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Leaked audio of heated meeting reveals hostages’ fury at Netanyahu​

A female abductee freed with her children – but without her husband, who remains in captivity – is heard on one recording saying: “The feeling we had there was that no one was doing anything for us. The fact is that I was in a hiding place that was shelled and we had to be smuggled out and we were wounded. That’s besides the helicopter that shot at us on the way to Gaza.”

She adds: “You have no information. You have no information. The fact that we were shelled, the fact that no one knew anything about where we were… You claim that there is intelligence. But the fact is that we are being shelled."

According to the ynet account of the meeting, one man related what family members had told him after being freed. “They were under constant threat from the IDF shelling. You sat in front of us and assured us that it does not threaten their lives. They also roam the street and [are] not only in the tunnels. They are mounted on donkeys and carts. You will not be able to recognize them on the street and you are endangering their lives."

 

[JosephZ]

Citing estimates of damage to urban areas, military analysts say the destruction of northern Gaza in less than seven weeks has approached that caused by the years-long carpet-bombing of German cities during the second world war.

“Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne — some of the world’s heaviest-ever bombings are remembered by their place names,” said Robert Pape, a US military historian and author of Bombing to Win, a landmark survey of 20th century bombing campaigns. “Gaza will also go down as a place name denoting one of history’s heaviest conventional bombing campaigns.”

Whole neighbourhoods have been levelled. By December 4, more than 60 per cent of the buildings in north Gaza had been severely damaged, according to analysis of satellite radar data by Corey Scher of CUNY Graduate Center and Jamon Van Den Hoek of Oregon State University.

That rises to as much as 70 per cent of buildings in some districts. Across the whole of Gaza, between 82,600 and 105,300 buildings have been left in ruins, according to the estimate, which counts buildings where at least half the structure was damaged.

By contrast, over the space of two years, between 1943 and 1945, the Allied bombing of 61 major German cities razed an estimated 50 per cent of their urban areas, according to Pape.

Military briefing: the Israeli bombs raining on Gaza

From precision missiles to 2,000lb explosives, Israel’s air campaign is one of the heaviest in history

www.ft.com

 

[Vanellus]

Hamas committed documented atrocities. But a few false stories feed the deniers

Hamas Committed Documented Atrocities. But a Few False Stories Feed the Deniers

The "few false stories" include the oft repeated false story of 40 beheaded/burnt babies on October 7

According to a reporter for i24News, an army commander told her that at least 40 babies had been killed, some of them beheaded ... The report above was later quoted on social media, often referenced as “dozens of beheaded babies,” though sometimes it was “burnt babies” or “hanged babies.” For example, the Foreign Ministry published an account by Col. Golan Vach from the Home Front Command, who said that in one house he found the bodies of eight burnt babies ... Last week Ishay Coen, a journalist for the ultra-Orthodox website Kikar Hashabbat, interviewed Lt. Col. Yaron Buskila of the Israel Defense Forces's Gaza Division. Buskila talked about babies who had been hung on clotheslines; his remarks were cited by a host of Twitter personalities around the world. ...
Coen wrote that he was later informed that the story was inaccurate and deleted the post. “Why would an army officer invent such a horrifying story? I was wrong,” he added.
This story was false, but Hamas terrorists did desecrate corpses during the massacre, especially the bodies of soldiers. There were also beheadings and cases of dismemberment.
According to sources including Israel's National Insurance Institute, kibbutz leaders and the police, on October 7 one baby was murdered, 10-month-old Mila Cohen. She was killed with her father, Ohad, on Kibbutz Be'eri. ... According to the National Insurance Institute, five other children aged 6 or under were murdered, including Omer Kedem Siman Tov, 2, and his 6-year-old twin sisters Arbel and Shachar, who were killed on Kibbutz Nir Oz. There was also 5-year-old Yazan Zakaria Abu Jama from Arara in the southern Negev, who was killed in a Hamas rocket strike, and 5-year-old Eitan Kapshetar, who was murdered with his parents and his 8-year-old sister, Aline, near Sderot ... There is no evidence that children from several families were murdered together, rendering inaccurate Netanyahu’s remark to U.S. President Joe Biden that Hamas terrorists “took dozens of children, tied them up, burned them and executed them.” Still, there were many bound bodies ... The IDF Spokesperson’s Unit does not deny that Lt. Col. Buskila's remarks about babies strung up on clotheslines do not jibe with reality. It said: "The officer serves as a reservist operations officer. He arrived at a large number of scenes after the attack and saw many difficult sights as part of his duties. The details of the incident will be clarified with the officer, and it will be made clear to him that he should not describe events whose details are unclear and unofficial." ... As for Col. Vach’s remarks on the bodies of eight burned babies, the IDF Spokesperson’s Unit said he “described difficult sights that he saw during his various missions evacuating bodies at the start of the war. The review was conducted in English, and the officer used the word 'babies' to describe a number of children’s bodies that were found. The error was made in good faith and does not mitigate the severity of the atrocities committed." ...
Some of the incorrect descriptions were made by Zaka personnel; one repeatedly talked about 20 bound and burned bodies of children at a kibbutz. He told Haaretz that these were boys and girls between 10 and 15 found behind Kibbutz Kfar Azza's dining hall. Elsewhere, he said he saw 20 children from Kibbutz Be'eri laid next to each other and burned to death with their hands bound. This description does not conform to the list of the dead.

Now one murdered baby is one too many and the atrocity on October 7 was truly atrocious and something I have condemned on this forum and still condemn. But clearly the degree of the atrocity was hyped up and for all we know it was deliberately hyped up for political purposes. It is certainly true that various politicians leapt on the more extreme (and now admitted as false) stories and repeated these false stories many times as part of the dehumanise the Palestinians so it's ok to kill far more of them than were killed on October 7 narrative.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Do the WW2 figures refer to a single raid or raids that occurred over a long period?

"caused by the years-long carpet-bombing of German cities"

 

[Vanellus]

Leaked audio of heated meeting reveals hostages’ fury at Netanyahu​

A female abductee freed with her children – but without her husband, who remains in captivity – is heard on one recording saying: “The feeling we had there was that no one was doing anything for us. The fact is that I was in a hiding place that was shelled and we had to be smuggled out and we were wounded. That’s besides the helicopter that shot at us on the way to Gaza.”

She adds: “You have no information. You have no information. The fact that we were shelled, the fact that no one knew anything about where we were… You claim that there is intelligence. But the fact is that we are being shelled."

According to the ynet account of the meeting, one man related what family members had told him after being freed. “They were under constant threat from the IDF shelling. You sat in front of us and assured us that it does not threaten their lives. They also roam the street and [are] not only in the tunnels. They are mounted on donkeys and carts. You will not be able to recognize them on the street and you are endangering their lives."

Must have been a Hamas hijacked helicopter as the IDF would never fire on their own hostages as their intent is to preserve the life of non combatants and especially hostages. I await the IDF denial it was them with bated breath

 

[Vanellus]

"caused by the years-long carpet-bombing of German cities"

Sorry I missed that. I responded because I knew those 3 cities were subject to brutal one night bombing raids. I've deleted my post.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's true. This thread has been going a long time. I mentioned this quite some time ago. But I suppose you will be dismissed as I was.

War is war. Sometimes it's necessary. There is a time for war and a time for peace. This was a time for war and if you a w going to wage one, you better darn well win it.

It's a difficult conclusion to accept...and one I think our military fails to understand.

We wrote conventions to sanitize war and the fact is...they aren't followed, not really. We use chemical weapons. We use mass explosives. We destroy infrastructure and kill civilians. Enemies like Hamas hide behind the rules, and the public, to avoid open battle and no one gives up because no one ever faces the possibility of total annihilation.

If you are certain your enemies will give up before you are completely destroyed....you need not surrender, you can fight again and again.

If you are facing complete destruction of everything you have and hold dear....surrender is suddenly an option to consider.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, it's not. Everyone knows how bad Hamas are. What people are doing is complaining about what Israel is doing and the only response we get is 'But Hamas is really bad'.

We know. There is no point in repeating it ad nauseum except as a reason to try to justify Israel's actions.

No, it's not. Everyone knows how bad Hamas are. What people are doing is complaining about what Israel is doing and the only response we get is 'But Hamas is really bad'.

We know. There is no point in repeating it ad nauseum except as a reason to try to justify Israel's actions.

Nobody has to justify Israel's actions. It's a war. They were invaded. They have an enemy nation that refuses to cease aggression against them....for 70 years. I understand that some people think it's excusable. I agree. By that same rationale, Israel's current response is excusable. If you endlessly bomb, rocket, and morter the nation next to you...then send hundreds of soldiers to execute women and children, rape, burn, and slaughter citizens....

Then you really shouldn't complain about that nation choosing to remove you as a problem....permanently.

Let's hope that Palestinian Gaza is no more and what few good people live there get out alive.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Didn't belive Hamas. Didn't believe the Ministry of Health. Didn't believe the Red Cross. Didn't believe Medicine sans Frontiere. Will all those in the previous group like to say if they'll accept what Israel now says?

Who is going to start the countdown for any variation of 'But it's Hamas' fault.'

Yeah. We know! Everyone keeps reminding us of that but we know. But you kept denying the deaths. We kept telling you they were considered reasonably accurate. You didn't want to accept them. We kept saying they are not acceptable. But it's been fingers in the ears and 'La la la' all through the thread.

And check out the desperate phraseology: 'I'm not saying it's not bad...' Yeah, buddy. You're now on board with the rest of the world who have also been suggesting something along those lines, but more succinctly. More direct. With a little less use of the double negative. As in 'It is bad.'

It's tragic really....that these people who paraded hostages through the streets, gang raped women, killed babies...will soon be gone.

I think back at all the amazing and beautiful contributions to civilization that the Palestinians made....

Or the amazing cultural heritage and way of life....

And draw a blank. I don't understand the left's sympathy for these people apart from antisemitism. They're chasing Jewish students around campus these days...and three universities testified before congress that it's OK to call for the genocide of jews in certain contexts. Literally. To imagine these people were lecturing us on racism so recently makes me glad I ignored them.

People need to stop being an embarrassment to western civilization. The people of Palestine would launch rockets at the US if they could.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Gaza workers expelled from Israel accuse Israeli authorities of abuse, including beatings​

When the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel was first launched, Israeli media reported of initial fears that Hamas militants were among the workers with permits, although an Israeli security official later told CNN the men were detained for being in Israel illegally after their work permits were revoked, not for suspected terror activity.

Six human rights organizations in Israel have filed a petition to Israel’s High Court arguing these detentions were “without legal authority and without legal grounds.”

An Israeli security official told CNN that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) was aware of several incidents of “abuse” of Gazan workers by IDF soldiers.

When asked if any of the detainees died as a result of abuse, the official said that they were aware of two deaths of Gazan workers who were detained, but said these deaths were the result of chronic, long-term health issues these workers had before entering Israel, not the result of abuse.

Most workers from Gaza work in construction or agriculture.

Qatar condemns Israel’s claims about Hamas tunnel under Gaza hospital it funded​

Qatar has condemned Israel for its allegations about the existence of a Hamas tunnel under Sheikh Hamad Hospital, which was funded by Qatar Fund for Development in northern Gaza, saying the claims were made “without any tangible evidence or independent investigation.”

“This is a blatant attempt to justify the occupation's targeting of civilian infrastructure, including hospitals, schools, residential areas, and shelters for displaced people,” the chairman of the Qatari Committee for the Reconstruction of Gaza Ambassador Mohammed El Emadi said in a statement on Monday.

70% of the 2 million people in Gaza are displaced with many living in inhumane conditions, UN agency says​

"UNRWA shelters have reported thousands of cases of acute respiratory, skin infections, diarrhea, and chicken pox," the statement said.

​

Well it's a complaint of moving from inhumane conditions to inhumane conditions lol.

How can we know if the new inhumane conditions are worse than the old inhumane conditions?

And why aren't they being granted asylum in Egypt or any other neighboring nation?

We took in like 5 million asylum seekers in the last few years. These middle east nations need to do their part.