Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Philip_B]

Relativism again. I really thought most of you objected to that idea. Apparently not. All you are doing, and it's there written above, is excusing whatever Israel does 'based upon what Hamas has done'. You just literally said that. Most people in this thread are doing it. Most posts are telling us how bad Hamas is. Really? Like we didn't know?

Nobody is excusing them for anything so it's not as if people posting 'Look what they did' are trying to convince us that we shouldn't support them. So you really have to ask yourself why so many of those posts are saying the same thing time and time again. Including yours. And there'll be more to follow.

It's blindingly obvious.

The actions that Israel take will be judged just on those actions. Not in comparison to anyone or anything else. They will be judged by what they do. Not what someone else did. You explain this to small children. To schoolkids. It's a basic moral concept. It's Christianity 101. And it's missing in action in this thread.

common sense is remarkably uncommon

 

[Valletta]

Relativism again. I really thought most of you objected to that idea. Apparently not. All you are doing, and it's there written above, is excusing whatever Israel does 'based upon what Hamas has done'. You just literally said that. Most people in this thread are doing it. Most posts are telling us how bad Hamas is. Really? Like we didn't know?

Nobody is excusing them for anything so it's not as if people posting 'Look what they did' are trying to convince us that we shouldn't support them. So you really have to ask yourself why so many of those posts are saying the same thing time and time again. Including yours. And there'll be more to follow.

It's blindingly obvious.

The actions that Israel take will be judged just on those actions. Not in comparison to anyone or anything else. They will be judged by what they do. Not what someone else did. You explain this to small children. To schoolkids. It's a basic moral concept. It's Christianity 101. And it's missing in action in this thread.

War is hell. The opposing parties in Israel have united on how to proceed. They know that every time Israel drops a bomb those held by Hamas, Israeli hostages and Palestinians held against their will, could be killed. But they know time is running out for hostages. Those who actively undermine Israel's attempts to free the hostages (a number of hostages are in dire need of medical care) by urging a cease fire even after Hamas broke a cease fire and killed Israelis, will be judged by what they do. How will those people explain to Israeli families the hostages died when they could have been rescued? Just like those who sit by and allow our country's border to be so open, they should be held partially responsible for the resulting deaths. No country has offered troops or offered to take in those Palestinians. Where are the Arab countries? Where are Australia and New Zealand and Sweden, countries with low population densities? How about the United Nations? So many lecture and judge yet refuse to help.

 

[Gene2memE]

Where are Australia and New Zealand and Sweden, countries with low population densities?

They're taking in vastly more refugees on a population adjusted basis. In FY2022, the US took in just 25,500 refugees. In FY2023, the US took 60,000.

Australia took in 3,923 refugees in 2021 and 4,430 in 2022. Given Australia's population is 1/13th the size of the US, that put's it at rough parity with the US. EDIT - Australia also took in 17,325 resettled refugees in 2022, increasing its total to 21,755. That's the same as the US resettling about 282,000 refugees.

New Zealand accepted 1,794 refugees in 2021 and 1,791 in 2022. Given New Zealand's population is 1/65th the size of the US, that's equivalent of the US DOUBLING it's refugee intake.

Sweden accepted 6,401 refugees in 2021 and 4,154 in 2022. Given Sweden's population is 1/32nd the size of the US, that's equivalent of the US taking in somewhere between 133,000 and 205,000 refugees.

 

[Bradskii]

...they should be held partially responsible for the resulting deaths.

Same argument. My response is the same. I don't need to repeat it.

 

[wing2000]

Pres. Biden addressing alleged Hamas crimes against Israeli women today:

“Over the past few weeks, survivors and witnesses of the attacks have shared the horrific accounts of unimaginable cruelty,” Mr. Biden told donors at the event at a Westin hotel. “Reports of women raped — repeatedly raped — and their bodies being mutilated while still alive — of women corpses being desecrated, Hamas terrorists inflicting as much pain and suffering on women and girls as possible and then murdering them.”

He added: “It is appalling.”
..

Hamas has said it considers the women to be soldiers. But President Biden said, “These are civilian women, mostly between the ages of 20 and 39,” adding, “Let me be crystal clear. Hamas’ refusal to release the remaining young women is what broke this deal and ended the pause in the fighting.”

On Monday, Mr. Miller said that “a number of people believe” that Hamas did not want to release the female hostages because of the stories they would tell about how they were treated. But he said he was “not able to speak with a definitive assessment that that is the case.”

Israel-Hamas War: Biden Condemns Rapes by Hamas on Oct. 7 and Its Refusal to Release Remaining Women

The president denounced “horrific accounts of unimaginable cruelty” toward women during the Hamas-led attacks on Israel and said Hamas had refused to release its remaining female hostages.

www.nytimes.com

 

[rjs330]

You want to talk about stupidity? All right, let's talk about stupidity. The textbook definition of stupidity would be to argue that agent B is relieved all responsibilities for their actions just because agent A provoked agent B.

Not at all, there is such a thing as justice. Now you could argue as to what is just and if Israel is being just. Justice is based on totality. And Hamas has been attacking Israel for many years now with the Gazan support. So perhaps Justice is being met.

Secondly we don't even know if Hamas' claims are true. Hamas would kill their own people for propaganda purposes and they would most certainly lie about much of it.

 

[rjs330]

Pa. gov rips protesters who mobbed Jewish-owned falafel shop to harass owner: ‘Blatant act of antisemitism’

“A restaurant was targeted and mobbed because its owner is Jewish and Israeli. This hate and bigotry is reminiscent of a dark time in history.”

nypost.com

The hatred needs to be stopped. There is one group that is clearly evil and that is Hamas. In our country the federal government needs to crack down on anti-Israel anti-Semitic violence. Those who are not citizens and engage in such violence need to be deported. Such crimes are hate crimes. How many of those involved have been arrested and charged with hate crimes? It;s easy to say that what is going on is wrong, what we need is for the government to put these people in jail. The Democrats need to confront the radical minority in their party and boot them out. The same reaction should occur as if protesters were violent because someone was black and owned a restaurant.

But but but they are just supporting the Palestinian people.......

 

[rjs330]

Gee, you think we need reminding about who 'the bad guy' is? Don't talk nonsense. But knowing it cannot and should not be a reason to excuse any and all behaviour by 'the good guy'. But that's exactly what you are doing.

Yes based on some in this thread is obvious it's still needed.

 

[rjs330]

People lived in the area, whether they had a common flag or nation anthem or central government don’t enter into the picture. They were there.

So? Before them there was someone else was and on and on. Being there doesn't make you a country and based upon all the times other people have co trolled it it doesn't mean it belongs to anyone except those who can take it and hold it.

It's not a state, it's not a country. People live everywhere. It's the way the world works.

 

[Bradskii]

Yes based on some in this thread is obvious it's still needed.

No, it's not. Everyone knows how bad Hamas are. What people are doing is complaining about what Israel is doing and the only response we get is 'But Hamas is really bad'.

We know. There is no point in repeating it ad nauseum except as a reason to try to justify Israel's actions.

 

[truthpls]

What shame a murderous group was held in check. The fact they voted in Hamas should tell you enough.

That's your claim, but it's just word smithing. And you haven't any evidence they've been doing as you claim.

This comment is evidence you have no idea what's really gone on. It's not up to us to educate you what's been happening since 2006. Take some responsibility for your own education.

Let the ones responsible for throwing their citizens in front of the bullets and committing mass murder over the years surrender. Let the Hamas sympathizers not make foolish demands.

I consider Israel a terrorist state now. Those that support it do not represent Jesus. At this point we wait only for the hand of God to come down on Israel for the mass murder and terrorism they have done. Yes the guilty in Gaza will also answer for their crimes of course. I see no bible justification offered for your support of the killing in Gaza?

 

[rjs330]

The people complaining about what Israel has done don't complain about what Palestine has done.

Exclusively talking about how awful Israel is while ignoring the crimes of Palestine is hypocritical.

I think it's funny that both sides of this discussion have spent 70 pages arguing morality and never considered that maybe....just maybe....war isn't really a moral endeavor. That might sound odd, because we romanticize stories of heroes, and tragic events of conflicts past, but it's not a thing one can engage in morally...no matter how hard one tries. It's like taking out the trash...it's not a moral good, or bad, it's simply something that needs done for reasons that cannot be avoided.

If people want to root for some moral outcome....root for the people of Palestine to be expelled from Gaza. It's a terrible place to live run by terrorists. Palestinians living almost anywhere else are better off. If carpet bombing the whole of Gaza causes that result, it's the best possible result....for both Israel and Palestine.

It's true. This thread has been going a long time. I mentioned this quite some time ago. But I suppose you will be dismissed as I was.

War is war. Sometimes it's necessary. There is a time for war and a time for peace. This was a time for war and if you a w going to wage one, you better darn well win it.

 

[rjs330]

Nobody is excusing them for anything so it's not as if people posting 'Look what they did' are trying to convince us that we shouldn't support them. So you really have to ask yourself why so many of those posts are saying the same thing time and time again. Including yours. And there'll be more to follow.

Wrong people are excusing them. Are you not reading their posts. And no I'm not going to hunt them up for you, but they go along the lines of "It's understandable that Hamas did this because Israel blockades Gaza and put up a wall etc." yeah I've kinda slowed down a bit in this thread. Everyone is pretty locked in at this point.

But it still is I treating for all the keening about "nobody is excusing Hamas" there's a lot of excusing Hamas and the vast majority of the left leaning post are all about Israel and no mention of Hamas. Or there is one sentence of "we don't excuse Hamas for its atrocities" Followed by paragraphs judging Israel.

The actions that Israel take will be judged just on those actions. Not in comparison to anyone or anything else. They will be judged by what they do. Not what someone else did. You explain this to small children. To schoolkids. It's a basic moral concept. It's Christianity 101. And it's missing in action in this thread.

I hate to break it to you but I don't think Isteal.cares a wit about you or anyone else's "judgement". As stated before, sometimes a country needs to go to war. This is one of those time imo. And they better win it if they have any hope for peace. And I hey better do what it takes during a war to win it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Two civilian deaths for each Hamas fighter in Gaza, Israel admits​

[this is (I have heard) the first official Israeli estimate (albeit implied) on civilian deaths in Gaza.]

Asked about media reports that 5,000 Hamas fighters had been killed, one of the senior officials told reporters at a briefing: "The numbers are more or less right.

"I'm not saying it's not bad that we have a ratio of 2 to 1."

[suggesting 15,000 total deaths, of which 5,000 were Hamas fighters. This agrees reasonably well with the Gazan Health Ministry estimates of 15,900.]

 

[rjs330]

consider Israel a terrorist state now. Those that support it do not represent Jesus. At this point we wait only for the hand of God to come down on Israel for the mass murder and terrorism they have done. Yes the guilty in Gaza will also answer for their crimes of course. I see no bible justification offered for your support of the killing in Gaza?

You may consider it a terrorist state, but I don't know that God does. I think I'll just wait to see what God does before jumping to conclusions. You might be surprised.

There Bible says there is a time for war. And as we saw in Israel war was a brutal barbaric thing. Still is. That's why it should be avoided. But Hamas elected not to. They started it and Israel better finish it.

Israel is meeting it's biblical mandate to deal with evil doers. Gods sword of vengeance upon a wicked people.

As Christians we should strive as much as it is in us and I live peaceably with all men. As a government Israel is not under the same obligation because they have a different mandate.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Israel revoked visa of UN humanitarian coordinator, minister of foreign affairs says​

Israel has revoked the visa of the United Nations humanitarian coordinator due to the "bias of the UN," according to the Israeli minister of foreign affairs.

UN rejects idea of acceptable ratios for Gaza's civilian deaths after Israeli military's comments​

Israel's assessment on civilian-Hamas militant fatality ratio is "dead wrong," US Rep. Seth Moulton says​

Moulton, a member of the House Armed Services Committee who served in Iraq, cited a study commissioned by retired Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal, which said for every civilian killed, about 10 terrorists are recruited.

"By that number, Israel so far killed about 5,000 Hamas terrorists but in the process they've recruited about 100,000 new adherents. And this is bad news for Israel," Moutlon said.

More than 60% of homes in Gaza have been destroyed. (per Hamas)​

IDF concedes it struck Lebanese soldiers while targeting Hezbollah in "self defense"​

The Israel Defense Forces admitted Tuesday that it struck Lebanese soldiers while acting in "self defense" against Hezbollah, the IDF said on social media.

"The Lebanese Armed Forces were not the target of the strike," the IDF statement read. "The IDF expresses regret over the incident."

According to the Lebanese Armed Forces, one soldier was killed and three more were injured.

 

[essentialsaltes]

This one deserves its own place in the sun.

IDF should retain control for disarmament of Gaza after war, Netanyahu says​

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Tuesday that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) should retain control for the disarmament of Gaza after the war, rejecting the idea that an international force could be responsible for security in the Gaza Strip.

 

[Bradskii]

I hate to break it to you but I don't think Isteal.cares a wit about you or anyone else's "judgement".

There's a problem there. They need to. They're losing friends and gaining another generation of enemies. They don't want to stop bombing the place, you say they must do whatever it takes and Hamas wants them to continue. For God's sake, you're all on the same page.

Here's a tip for you if you're thinking of going anywhere in the Middle East in the near future. Don't go to Israel. Stay away from wherever Israelis gather. Don't use EL AL.

 

[Valletta]

No, it's not. Everyone knows how bad Hamas are. What people are doing is complaining about what Israel is doing and the only response we get is 'But Hamas is really bad'.

We know. There is no point in repeating it ad nauseum except as a reason to try to justify Israel's actions.

It's similar to criticizing the United States pursuit of Bin Laden, except Bin Laden wasn't holding hostages. There were always be some who think such a reaction was unjust.

 

[Valletta]

Two civilian deaths for each Hamas fighter in Gaza, Israel admits​

[this is (I have heard) the first official Israeli estimate (albeit implied) on civilian deaths in Gaza.]

Asked about media reports that 5,000 Hamas fighters had been killed, one of the senior officials told reporters at a briefing: "The numbers are more or less right.

"I'm not saying it's not bad that we have a ratio of 2 to 1."

[suggesting 15,000 total deaths, of which 5,000 were Hamas fighters. This agrees reasonably well with the Gazan Health Ministry estimates of 15,900.]

Did Israel provide any indication there are 15,000 total deaths? All it means is that so far 5000 of the maybe 25,000 Hamas terrorists have been eliminated. There are a lot more to go.