Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Ana the Ist]

Basing your moral position on what Israel does on what somebody else does. For people who insist that morality is not relative, some of you guys seem absolutely determined to excuse anything Israel does simply because it's not as bad as what Hamas does. Is that really a line of argument you want to everyone to in incorporate into their morality? Seriously?

Nobody is supporting what Hamas has done, is doing and probably will yet do. You really need to get your head around that and stop using what they do as an excuse for actions by others. Honestly, it's not a path you want to follow. You won't like where it leads.

The people complaining about what Israel has done don't complain about what Palestine has done.

Exclusively talking about how awful Israel is while ignoring the crimes of Palestine is hypocritical.

I think it's funny that both sides of this discussion have spent 70 pages arguing morality and never considered that maybe....just maybe....war isn't really a moral endeavor. That might sound odd, because we romanticize stories of heroes, and tragic events of conflicts past, but it's not a thing one can engage in morally...no matter how hard one tries. It's like taking out the trash...it's not a moral good, or bad, it's simply something that needs done for reasons that cannot be avoided.

If people want to root for some moral outcome....root for the people of Palestine to be expelled from Gaza. It's a terrible place to live run by terrorists. Palestinians living almost anywhere else are better off. If carpet bombing the whole of Gaza causes that result, it's the best possible result....for both Israel and Palestine.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Don't be nonsensical. I've already said that I agree with a multi national peace keeping force as you suggested.

That's nonsensical. When has a multinational peacekeeping force ever solved anything?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hamas is responsible for all the casualties. Without their attack Israel would not be there and none of this would have happened. Just as had Nazi Germany not attacked Poland in 1939 the millions that died would have lived. Therefore Nazi Germany is also responsible for all the casualties of WWII in Europe. Can you provide any evidence that these statement are not true?......not your opinion mind you but evidence.

That's simplifying things a bit.

 

[Ana the Ist]

People lived in the area, whether they had a common flag or nation anthem or central government don’t enter into the picture. They were there.

Yup...and they already hated jews before they showed up in large numbers.

 

[civilwarbuff]

.

 

[civilwarbuff]

That's simplifying things a bit.

Gotta keep it simple for some.......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Israel

State Dept: Hamas refuses to release women hostages to prevent sharing horrors of captivity​

The State Department says the U.S. suspects one reason Hamas is refusing to release its remaining female hostages is to prevent them from revealing the horrors they experienced in captivity.

State Dept: Hamas refuses to release women hostages to prevent sharing horrors of captivity

A State Department official said Hamas is refusing to release its remaining female hostages in part because it fears what they will reveal.

www.foxnews.com

I am waiting for the question: "What horrors?"

 

[Jimmy It]

The people complaining about what Israel has done don't complain about what Palestine has done.

Exclusively talking about how awful Israel is while ignoring the crimes of Palestine is hypocritical.

I think it's funny that both sides of this discussion have spent 70 pages arguing morality and never considered that maybe....just maybe....war isn't really a moral endeavor. That might sound odd, because we romanticize stories of heroes, and tragic events of conflicts past, but it's not a thing one can engage in morally...no matter how hard one tries. It's like taking out the trash...it's not a moral good, or bad, it's simply something that needs done for reasons that cannot be avoided.

If people want to root for some moral outcome....root for the people of Palestine to be expelled from Gaza. It's a terrible place to live run by terrorists. Palestinians living almost anywhere else are better off. If carpet bombing the whole of Gaza causes that result, it's the best possible result....for both Israel and Palestine.

If people want to root for some moral outcome....root for the people of Palestine to be expelled from Gaza. It's a terrible place to live run by terrorists. Palestinians living almost anywhere else are better off. If carpet bombing the whole of Gaza causes that result, it's the best possible result....for both Israel and Palestine.
Except none of their 'Muslim brothers' want them. Some would love to see Hamas destroyed yet can't say so publicly.

 

[Valletta]

Indiscriminate bombing of densely populated residential areas is evil.

There has never been a country in a war that has taken such extreme measures to protect civilians as has Israel. Israel is fighting against pure evil, savagery on a scale that should shake every human being to the core. Let us all pray that the hostages held by Hamas are returned safely.

 

[Chesterton]

Israel has been pandering to Western sensibilities for decades. The West has funded the monstrous Hamas organisation. Now the West wrings its hands as Israel tries to deal with the consequences of Western stupidity and ignorance.

Yep. There was a video from "Son of Hamas" guy back in October where he mentioned protests in the West and then said "but in the Middle East we will take care of business in the Middle East style". It's a harsh reality, but we Westerners have got to stop thinking that everyone else thinks like we do.

 

[Chesterton]

Peacekeeping may work (the UN's track record is not great) but it's not going to happen.

U.N. peacekeeping also doesn't have a good track record of not raping. I wouldn't want them peacekeeping around my wife and daughters.

 

[wing2000]

The heaviest fighting has yet to occur...

Around a third of Gaza City is still out of the control of Israeli forces, including some areas that are expected to be heavily fortified, said Micheal Milshtein, former head of the Palestinian department in Israel’s military intelligence agency.


The Israeli military has so far skirted Hamas’s known military strongholds there, including Shejaiya — where some of the most intense battles of Operation Cast Lead took place in 2014, and where Hamas has likely dug in for a fight.

“It will be very tough,” Milshtein said of the potential battle in the area, adding that Hamas “really prepared all their infrastructure.”

Satellite imagery taken by Planet Labs on Nov. 30 — just before the end of the temporary pause in fighting — showed little sign of an Israeli military presence around the neighborhoods of Shejaiya or Jabalya, another neighborhood in the east.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/05/israel-military-offensive-hamas-destruction-gaza/

 

[Vanellus]

It was Netanyahu who brought up Amalek early in the conflict,
remember?
I do in no way support such actions that are taking place.

Now or at any time,
commiting wicked deeds is not a mark of strength.

All things have their time, jumping lights is not a good idea.

Ephraim did not wait for the green light and left Egypt before time
and on entering the land of Canaan were defeated in battle.

I remember about Netanyahu referring to Amalek. Your posts would benefit from being more clearly expressed.

 

[Vanellus]

There has never been a country in a war that has taken such extreme measures to protect civilians as has Israel. Israel is fighting against pure evil, savagery on a scale that should shake every human being to the core. Let us all pray that the hostages held by Hamas are returned safely.

Yeh carry on repeating the IDF propaganda.

 

[Valletta]

Israel’s military has ordered evacuations in Southern Gaza, with locations mapped out where Palestinians can safely take shelter.

NTD Good Morning Full Broadcast (Dec. 4)

Israel’s military has ordered evacuations in Southern Gaza, with locations mapped out where Palestinians can safely take shelter. NTD has the latest on the Israel–Hamas war as operations commence across the whole of Gaza. The U.S. military shot down a number of drones after multiple commercial...

www.ntd.com

 

[rjs330]

Basing your moral position on what Israel does on what somebody else does. For people who insist that morality is not relative, some of you guys seem absolutely determined to excuse anything Israel does simply because it's not as bad as what Hamas does. Is that really a line of argument you want to everyone to in incorporate into their morality? Seriously?

Nobody is supporting what Hamas has done, is doing and probably will yet do. You really need to get your head around that and stop using what they do as an excuse for actions by others. Honestly, it's not a path you want to follow. You won't like where it leads.

You first have to assume that what Israel has done is bad. And for heaven sake even if it is there are measures of bad correct. If if I punch you in the face that's bad right? If I shove an Ice pick through your eye again that's much worse correct?

It's always been this way. No one I don't think has said all immoral choices are equal. Just as all punishments or justice is not either.

So is Israel doing something immoral or measuring out justice based upon what Hamas has done through the years being supported by the rest of Gaza?

 

[rjs330]

Except their airport was blown up, and they had no access to the sea and were surrounded by barbed wire and regulated heavily etc?

What shame a murderous group was held in check. The fact they voted in Hamas should tell you enough.

Ridiculous claim, when they have mass murdered civilians for many weeks now.

That's your claim, but it's just word smithing. And you haven't any evidence they've been doing as you claim.

Proof?

This comment is evidence you have no idea what's really gone on. It's not up to us to educate you what's been happening since 2006. Take some responsibility for your own education.

Let the ones bombing civilians be silent and not make foolish demands.

Let the ones responsible for throwing their citizens in front of the bullets and committing mass murder over the years surrender. Let the Hamas sympathizers not make foolish demands.

 

[rjs330]

If you can't differentiate between support for Hamas and support for Palestinians then further discussion will be a waste of my time. And in passing, I already told you what my views are, along with the vast majority of people, in regard to Hamas. You can save your time and some forum bandwidth listing everything bad about them. I didn't bother reading it because they are totally irrelevant to the point I was making. Which you seem not to be able to grasp.

I won't waste more of my time repeating it.

It seems you are wasting your time since you can't tell that what the protestors are really supporting. I would think the attacks on Jews and growth of anti-Semetism should tell you something.

Support for Palestinians IS support for Hamas because Palestinians support Hamas.

 

[rjs330]

I know that we disagree on many things, but you have my support on this.

I like the idea too. It would be fun to see how long the UN would last with Hamas attacking them Everytime they turn around.

 

[Bradskii]

So is Israel doing something immoral or measuring out justice based upon what Hamas has done through the years being supported by the rest of Gaza?

Relativism again. I really thought most of you objected to that idea. Apparently not. All you are doing, and it's there written above, is excusing whatever Israel does 'based upon what Hamas has done'. You just literally said that. Most people in this thread are doing it. Most posts are telling us how bad Hamas is. Really? Like we didn't know?

Nobody is excusing them for anything so it's not as if people posting 'Look what they did' are trying to convince us that we shouldn't support them. So you really have to ask yourself why so many of those posts are saying the same thing time and time again. Including yours. And there'll be more to follow.

It's blindingly obvious.

The actions that Israel take will be judged just on those actions. Not in comparison to anyone or anything else. They will be judged by what they do. Not what someone else did. You explain this to small children. To schoolkids. It's a basic moral concept. It's Christianity 101. And it's missing in action in this thread.