Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Philip_B]

We know what we know. We don't know what we don't know. Are other state players acting in this situation, to provoke and promote this situation for other purposes? I don't know, but if I were to make an educated guess I think I know what I would guess. The endless fascination with reducing this to simple binary propositions does little to advance our understanding or apprehension of the truth.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

If Hamas wants ceasfire, they should release all the hostages immrdiately, and never ever attack Israel or anyone else ever again.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

There is not one Muslim country that accepts Palestinian refugees. There is one Jew nation, and that Jew nation, Israel, has done more for the Palestinian people, than any other nation ever. So it's insulting that the Palestinian people throw stones at the Jews when in fact Jews are the only group that has been trying to protect them in any administrative way by providing food, water and resources to the people that are there. The reason that the Muslim countries are not accepting Palestinians, is because the Muslim countries know how radical and dangerous the Palestinians are. For that reason Egypt and Jordan don't want them there. Iran uses Hamas and Hezbollah as weapons against Israel.

The distinction between good and evil in this war could not possibly be any clearer. No matter how you want to slice it and what you want to look at, there are not two equal sides here. There is good and there is evil. You can look at the protests. One side sings songs of unity and peace. The other side yells chants of genocide and murder. You can look at the hostages/prisoners. One side longs for its children and wives to unite with their families. The other side demands the release of murderers and terrorists. You can look at how the released are treated.
One side does everything it can to ensure their hostages come home safely and are treated accordingly. The other side parades its prisoners around the streets while calling for violence. You can look at the value of human life. One side mourns its casualties and yearns for peace. The other side celebrates the death of its people and yearns for destruction. You can look at innocent deaths. One side goes to extraordinary lengths to minimize civilian deaths. The other side does everything in its power to maximize civilian deaths, which they then use as a PR tactic.
You can look at how the war can end. One side can put down its weapons and achieve an instant end to the war. The other side can put down its weapons and be annihilated by the enemy. You can look at the respective charters. One side has a charter (the Torah) that puts peace and human life as the highest value. The other side has a charter that glorifies death and genocide. You can look at the importance of truth.
One side tells the truth even when inconvenient. The other side has a propaganda machine that spreads lies and blood libels all day every day.
The point is, if you see the two sides as good vs evil, congratulations, you are a moral person.
If you don’t see the clear difference, if you compare the two sides, if you make an equal sign between innocent hostages and murderous prisoners, congratulations to you. You are morally bankrupt and an accomplice to murder, rape, abduction, and decapitation.
Israel has always been and will always be the moral side of the Middle East conflict. The other side represents radical Islam and proudly declares that Israel is only its first stop. In order to navigate the challenges the world will face as a result of radical Islam spreading like a cancer, the first thing they need is a compass. If you compare Israel to Hamas, you have no moral compass and when radical Islam comes for you, you will not know where to go or who to turn to. If for no other reason, you should stand with Israel because Israel is fighting this war so you don’t have to.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I can’t remember any time in the Bible when Jews were massacred by other people groups, and God just overlooked it without punishing the perpetrators!

 

[Pommer]

I think FDR did a lot of wrong. Certainly the racism of FDR and his vice president Truman cannot be justified.

Truman?
Wasn’t he Commander-in-Chief whe he unilaterally decided that the military would be integrated?
Doesn’t sound that racist to me.

 

[Pommer]

I can’t remember any time in the Bible when Jews were massacred by other people groups, and God just overlooked it without punishing the perpetrators!

I think that Jeremiah covers some of this.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Are you sure you are not getting info second hand? They probably also fear Israel. You make it sound like there are a few terrorists holding a population hostage. I am not so sure they either support Hamas killing babies, or that Hamas treats the people as badly as you suggest.

So if you don't really know what the people think, why kill them?
I think that the people have been oppressed and imprisoned and robbed of freedom and live in poverty. Address that and it might go somewhere. Bomb their babies and that will only add fuel to the fire

Israel left Gaza in around 2005. They were given full freedom to self govern. They elected Hamas. Hamas killed the opposition party members, the Fatah, who rules the Palestinians in the West Bank. Since that time, Gazans have seen a massive decline in their standard of living, no further elections have been called and any criticism of Hamas is met by torture and/or murder. Have you listened to the testimony of the son of the founder of Hamas? He tells it like it is.

Israel is not responsible for the plight of Gazans. Hamas has pillaged the aid supplied by other countries, bought weapons, fabricated a vast tunnel network, trained its military while plotting the destruction of Israel. The "useful idiots" (a Muslim expression) have poured billions into Gaza while turning a blind eye to where the aid goes. Israel gave employment to 18,000 Gazans, who then supplied intelligence to Hamas to identify the best (i.e. softest) targets to attack.

You are not dealing with normal people. Judging situations through Western eyes is the reason why so many military campaigns have been a disaster. Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam have all been catastrophic failures. At least Vietnam has recovered well. I hold no hope for the others.

You suffer from the Greta Thunburg syndrome. "Just stop it" is not the answer. Let Hamas surrender and commit to enduring peace with Israel. Then the killing will stop.

 

[Bradskii]

...if you compare the two sides...If you compare Israel to Hamas...

I mean, you guys really have to stop doing this. Honestly. Seriously, just stop.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I mean, you guys really have to stop doing this. Honestly. Seriously, just stop.

Stop what? Point out that Israel and Hamas are not the same? I'm not going to do that until people stop defending Hamas

 

[Bradskii]

Stop what?

Basing your moral position on what Israel does on what somebody else does. For people who insist that morality is not relative, some of you guys seem absolutely determined to excuse anything Israel does simply because it's not as bad as what Hamas does. Is that really a line of argument you want to everyone to in incorporate into their morality? Seriously?

Nobody is supporting what Hamas has done, is doing and probably will yet do. You really need to get your head around that and stop using what they do as an excuse for actions by others. Honestly, it's not a path you want to follow. You won't like where it leads.

 

[truthpls]

Israel left Gaza in around 2005. They were given full freedom to self govern.

Except their airport was blown up, and they had no access to the sea and were surrounded by barbed wire and regulated heavily etc?

They elected Hamas. Hamas killed the opposition party members, the Fatah, who rules the Palestinians in the West Bank. Since that time, Gazans have seen a massive decline in their standard of living, no further elections have been called and any criticism of Hamas is met by torture and/or murder. Have you listened to the testimony of the son of the founder of Hamas? He tells it like it is.

So vote them out

Israel is not responsible for the plight of Gazans.

Ridiculous claim, when they have mass murdered civilians for many weeks now.

Hamas has pillaged the aid supplied by other countries, bought weapons, fabricated a vast tunnel network, trained its military while plotting the destruction of Israel.

Proof?

The "useful idiots" (a Muslim expression)

? Communist saying I think that they may have (like many other folks) adopted

have poured billions into Gaza while turning a blind eye to where the aid goes. Israel gave employment to 18,000 Gazans, who then supplied intelligence to Hamas to identify the best (i.e. softest) targets to attack.

Proof?

You are not dealing with normal people. Judging situations through Western eyes is the reason why so many military campaigns have been a disaster. Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam have all been catastrophic failures. At least Vietnam has recovered well. I hold no hope for the others.

Normal people do not mass murder civilians

You suffer from the Greta Thunburg syndrome. "Just stop it" is not the answer. Let Hamas surrender and commit to enduring peace with Israel. Then the killing will stop.

Let the ones bombing civilians be silent and not make foolish demands.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Nobody is supporting what Hamas has done

Is that why hundreds of thousands if not millions of people gather in pro-Hamas protests? Is that why antisemitism has risen multiple times since 7th of October? Is that why some media are very very soft on Hamas and don't call them out? Is that why many Western world university students speak in fully support of Palestinians?

First of all, I hope Hamas repents of the evil they do and they return the hostages. Sadly, that might not happen, and in that case, Israel has a right to defend themselves and destroy Hamas. Sadly innocent Gazan civilians will die also. Or do you have a way for Israel to destroy Hamas without killing anyone else? Unfortunately in every war, in order to destroy evil, civilians die. That is truly tragic, but if Hamas is not destroyed, they will keep attacking Israel and we will have repeats of Oct 7th but on much bigger scale. When the allies tried to stop Nazis, 2 million German civilians died, even those who helped Jews to hide from Nazis. But I see no one protesting against that. Or should have the allies leave the Nazis win, at least no innocent civilians would have died, or wait, they would, even more, but on our side. So what do you want Israel to do? Just stand and watch?

And who are the innocent civilians in Gaza anyway, when vast majority of them support what Hamas did during Oct 7th? Some even helped the Hamas terrorist, they committed crimes, they helped to abduct the Israeli. The Palestinian children are being taught to hate and murder the Jews, killing them would be their greatest achievement. Once again I ask what do you want Israel to do here? Stop? It's Hamas that needs to stop and surrender, why should Israel stop? If Israel stops, guess what, Hamas will return and kill even more Israeli civilians. Did you even think about that?

Anyone who wants to kill people just because we they are Jews cannot receive my sympathy. He can only get my hope and prayer that he will either repent and get saved or get killed before he kills others!

And if you have already killed, raped, or burned alive people, my prayer is that either you will repent and then be punished by the authorities for your crimes or you’ll just be executed if repentance isn’t your thing. No matter what - actions such as those cannot go unpunished!

Why is the 'me too' movement silent about Hamas raping and killing innocent women? Where are all the female rights movements? Why is there no comment? The fact that people don't condemn this outright shows exactly what their character is, utterly evil and vile!

Some of the horrors Israeli hostages experienced at the hands of Hamas in Gaza:

*Executed in captivity.
*Denied medical treatment.
*Starvation.
*Women kept in cages.
*Some forced to eat toilet paper.
*Sleep deprivation.
*Forced to watch Oct 7 atrocities.
*Separation from families.
*Children branded with exhaust pipes in case of escape.
*Beatings.
*Deprived of daylight.
*Solitary confinement.
*Elderly women forced to sleep on plastic chairs.
*Children forced to whisper, not allowed to cry.
*Denied basic hygiene.
*Confined to cramped spaces.
*No idea if their families survived.
*Forced to participate in degrading propaganda videos.
*Not a single visit from the Red Cross.

 

[Bradskii]

Is that why hundreds of thousands if not millions of people gather in pro-Hamas protests?

If you can't differentiate between support for Hamas and support for Palestinians then further discussion will be a waste of my time. And in passing, I already told you what my views are, along with the vast majority of people, in regard to Hamas. You can save your time and some forum bandwidth listing everything bad about them. I didn't bother reading it because they are totally irrelevant to the point I was making. Which you seem not to be able to grasp.

I won't waste more of my time repeating it.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

If you can't differentiate between support for Hamas and support for Palestinians

75% of Palestinians support Hamas' October 7th massacre. Only 13% oppose it.

Still think these are innocent civilians?

 

[Bradskii]

75% of Palestinians support Hamas' October 7th massacre. Only 13% oppose it.

Still think these are innocent civilians?

You said that millions supported Hamas. That is patently wrong. They are supporting Palestinians. And the figure you quoted was after many thousands of them had been killed by Israel.

From here: Palestinian support for Hamas appears to be growing - The Hub

'Prior to the October 7 attacks, according to a widely-cited poll conducted by the Arab Barometer, a large majority (67 percent) of Gazans said that they had no trust in the long-standing Hamas-led government. Nearly three-quarters said that there was corruption in the government.'

You get that bit? That 75% said there was corruption and a large majority said they had no trust in Hamas. So what did Hamas do? Provoke an attack by Israel and after thousands of people were killed, those remaining, who would like to have seen the back of Hamas, now support them.

Get this from the same link:

'In fact, a week prior to the October 7 attacks, one Palestinian democracy activist told Haaretz, an Israeli news outlet, “that there’s a lot of anger against Hamas, and the only thing that can save Hamas now is a war.”

So what did Hamas do? And what was the response? Well, you don't have to be a bloody Rhodes Scholar to conclude that it was exactly what Hamas wanted. And read this and weep for those who will be killed in future wars:

'The AWRD survey, for instance, reports that almost all respondents believe those around them will never forget (93.3 percent) or forgive (95.8 percent) Israel for its actions during the conflict.

Brilliant, eh? You've sown the wind. You better be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

 

[Aussie Pete]

You may have seen what I posted earlier when our foreign minister urged Israel to show restraint. And urged for a cease fire. And she spoke as an Israeli supporter. A friend of that nation.

Do you know what will happen if they continue? They will lose the support of their friends. Friends who are trying to tell them that the price they extracting is too high.

Do you know who will be most pleased at that outcome? Can you possibly imagine? Do you know who is Israel's worst enemy as you read this? Israel.

No one has a clue how to resolve this situation. Either Hamas is dealt with now or Israel will be dealing with Hamas for decades to come. Either Gaza suffers now and has peace in the future or neither Israel nor Gaza has peace. Israel tried the softly softly approach up until 7th of October. The 1,000 prisoners Israel released a few years ago include the mastermind of the October slaughter. Israel has been pandering to Western sensibilities for decades. The West has funded the monstrous Hamas organisation. Now the West wrings its hands as Israel tries to deal with the consequences of Western stupidity and ignorance. My solution is simple. Israel withdraws completely and the UN sends in forces to control Gaza and protect Israel 100% from Hamas' aggression. Israel goes back to a peaceful existence while the UN runs around in circles trying to do the impossible. I'd buy a bag of popcorn to watch that show.

 

[Aussie Pete]

You said that millions supported Hamas. That is patently wrong. They are supporting Palestinians. And the figure you quoted was after many thousands of them had been killed by Israel.

From here: Palestinian support for Hamas appears to be growing - The Hub

'Prior to the October 7 attacks, according to a widely-cited poll conducted by the Arab Barometer, a large majority (67 percent) of Gazans said that they had no trust in the long-standing Hamas-led government. Nearly three-quarters said that there was corruption in the government.'

You get that bit? That 75% said there was corruption and a large majority said they had no trust in Hamas. So what did Hamas do? Provoke an attack by Israel and after thousands of people were killed, those remaining, who would like to have seen the back of Hamas, now support them.

Get this from the same link:

'In fact, a week prior to the October 7 attacks, one Palestinian democracy activist told Haaretz, an Israeli news outlet, “that there’s a lot of anger against Hamas, and the only thing that can save Hamas now is a war.”

So what did Hamas do? And what was the response? Well, you don't have to be a bloody Rhodes Scholar to conclude that it was exactly what Hamas wanted. And read this and weep for those who will be killed in future wars:

'The AWRD survey, for instance, reports that almost all respondents believe those around them will never forget (93.3 percent) or forgive (95.8 percent) Israel for its actions during the conflict.

Brilliant, eh? You've sown the wind. You better be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

And what Israeli citizen would forgive a government that failed to protect them initially then failed to deal with the attackers? You don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to work that out. And governments have a duty of care to protect their citizens. Or perhaps you'd rather see Israel wiped out. Of course, that is a far from uncommon attitude in the world today. Either Israel deals with Hamas now or it will be at war for as long as the world exists. With the current crop of idiots coming out of Western universities, that won't be as long as people might expect.

 

[Bradskii]

My solution is simple. Israel withdraws completely and the UN sends in forces to control Gaza and protect Israel 100% from Hamas' aggression. Israel goes back to a peaceful existence while the UN runs around in circles trying to do the impossible. I'd buy a bag of popcorn to watch that show.

I know that we disagree on many things, but you have my support on this.

 

[Bradskii]

And what Israeli citizen would forgive a government that failed to protect them initially then failed to deal with the attackers? You don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to work that out.

They failed on both counts. They didn't protect their own and now they are endangering them further by dealing with their enemy in a manner which is losing them friends.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Except their airport was blown up, and they had no access to the sea and were surrounded by barbed wire and regulated heavily etc?

So vote them out

Ridiculous claim, when they have mass murdered civilians for many weeks now.

Proof?

? Communist saying I think that they may have (like many other folks) adopted

Proof?

Normal people do not mass murder civilians

Let the ones bombing civilians be silent and not make foolish demands.

You have a solution to the problem? Hint. Expecting Palestinians to accept a two state solution is not it. They have had a number of opportunities and refused to take them. They will only settle for a one state solution, one where Israel ceases to exist. If they get away with destroying Israel, Christians will be next. I'm 72 so it matters little to me personally. I do care about my children and the next generation. Communism is rare these days. Useful idiots abound. "Queers for Palestine"? Muslims hate homosexuality and cheerfully kills gays. Maybe you should go visit Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq or Iran. You should make sure you tell everyone that you are a Christian. I doubt you'd get out of the airport alive.