Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Bradskii]

How do you know they were not killed by Hamas?

Your constant attempts to avoid any thought of the human tragedy are becoming even more risible.

 

[Valletta]

Your constant attempts to avoid any thought of the human tragedy are becoming even more risible.

 

[Bradskii]

And I asked if you had evidence that they were not trying to avoid 'killing innocent people' to which you replied:

The claim was that Israel has avoided killing innocent people. That they have avoided the loss of innocent lives. That they should continue to avoid it. That is a head-in-the-sand, complete and utter denial of what has actually happened. You rewording the claim doesn't change that in the slightest. What it does do is make you look like you're making further excuses to avoid accepting the carnage.

 

[Valletta]

We know Hamas kills babies and children and women. We know Hamas surrounds themselves with Palestinian babies and children at rocket launching sites so that Israel can be blamed for their deaths. What if Israel bombs and none are killed? Do you really believe, based upon their track record, that they would not kill some for propaganda purposes? Or do you think, no, I believe they would deliberately put these babies and children and women next to them so that Israel could be blamed but that their conscience would not allow them to actually kill them themselves?

 

[Vanellus]

Nonsense. Israel's war against Hamas is a just war. If Israeli acts violate the moral rules of conducting a just war then those acts, and only those acts, are to be investigated and adjudicated. Whether proven true or not, the legitimacy of Isarel prosecuting a just war does not change.

Yeh let's just wait until Israel has killed a load more Palestinians and then let's rig the later investigation so they are declared innocent. I'm sure that's the morally right thing to do. Or Biden could find some backbone and tell Netanyahu enough is enough - you cannot kill an idea with bullets but you can kill it with a better idea - a just resolution giving dignity to all the people who live in the region.

 

[Bradskii]

We know Hamas kills babies and children and women. We know Hamas surrounds themselves with Palestinian babies and children at rocket launching sites so that Israel can be blamed for their deaths. What if Israel bombs and none are killed? Do you really believe, based upon their track record, that they would not kill some for propaganda purposes? Or do you think, no, I believe they would deliberately put these babies and children and women next to them so that Israel could be blamed but that their conscience would not allow them to actually kill them themselves?

I'm going to say this as plainly as I can. It really needs to get though to you.

I (and many others) are not drawing comparisons between Israel and Hamas. You constantly are. You are judging everything Israel does in comparison to what Hamas has and is doing. So if someone points out that innocent people are being killed by Israel (an undeniable fact) then all we get in response is some risible schoolyard argument: 'But he started it, sir!'

We know who started it. We know what Hamas did. We know their MO. We all despise it. We all blame them for starting this unholy mess. But that doesn't give Israel carte blanche to do what they want in response. It's the worst possible position to even suggest that anything can be excused by pointing out what the other guy did. You don't get to kill innocent people and then excuse it by saying 'we're not as bad as them'. It's morally indefensible. It excuses anything. It allows for everything.

But I know this will fall on deaf ears. You'll ignore what i just said and any response will simply regurgitate what you think Hamas has or is doing and by implication suggest that Israel is innocent of everything. I don't expect anything else to be honest. I'd be a happy man if you proved me wrong.

 

[rjs330]

Do you think it would be justifiable for a police officer or private citizen to kill 10 to 15 people and wound 30 more in the process of killing the mall shooter?

Do you think battling a terrorist army in a war is the same thing as a single mall shooter?

 

[Vanellus]

I'm going to say this as plainly as I can. It really needs to get though to you.

I (and many others) are not drawing comparisons between Israel and Hamas. You constantly are. You are judging everything Israel does in comparison to what Hamas has and is doing. So if someone points out that innocent people are being killed by Israel (an undeniable fact) then all we get in response is some risible schoolyard argument: 'But he started it, sir!'

We know who started it. We know what Hamas did. We know their MO. We all despise it. We all blame them for starting this unholy mess. But that doesn't give Israel carte blanche to do what they want in response. It's the worst possible position to even suggest that anything can be excused by pointing out what the other guy did. You don't get to kill innocent people and then excuse it by saying 'we're not as bad as them'. It's morally indefensible. It excuses anything. It allows for everything.

But I know this will fall on deaf ears. You'll ignore what i just said and any response will simply regurgitate what you think Hamas has or is doing and by implication suggest that Israel is innocent of everything. I don't expect anything else to be honest. I'd be a happy man if you proved me wrong.

The question I have is why are people on this forum so hardened about the deaths of so many tens of thousands of people and they even quibble about the figures as if 14,000 would be ok but 15,000 is not ok. These are not just statistics, they are not "human animals" but human beings made of the same stuff we on this forum are.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The claim was that Israel has avoided killing innocent people. That they have avoided the loss of innocent lives. That they should continue to avoid it. That is a head-in-the-sand, complete and utter denial of what has actually happened. You rewording the claim doesn't change that in the slightest. What it does do is make you look like you're making further excuses to avoid accepting the carnage.

Then just say you don't have any evidence of your claim and it is simply your opinion and let it go.......cheez.......This conversation is really a waste of pixels.......

 

[Vanellus]

Hey, look at that: a derogatory term not censored by this board.

Yes best not face up to the substance: GIs in Vietnam behaved unspeakably.

 

[Bradskii]

Then just say you don't have any evidence of your claim and it is simply your opinion and let it go.......cheez.......This conversation is really a waste of pixels.......

Good grief man, you are being purposely obtuse. I didn't make a claim. I was saying that someone else's claim that Israel had avoided innocent deaths is patently absurd.

 

[Vanellus]

Then just say you don't have any evidence of your claim and it is simply your opinion and let it go.......cheez.......This conversation is really a waste of pixels.......

You won't accept any evidence.

 

[Vanellus]

We know Hamas kills babies and children and women. We know Hamas surrounds themselves with Palestinian babies and children at rocket launching sites so that Israel can be blamed for their deaths. What if Israel bombs and none are killed? Do you really believe, based upon their track record, that they would not kill some for propaganda purposes? Or do you think, no, I believe they would deliberately put these babies and children and women next to them so that Israel could be blamed but that their conscience would not allow them to actually kill them themselves?

Why do you accept every IDF claim?

 

[Pommer]

We know who started it. We know what Hamas did. We know their MO. We all despise it. We all blame them for starting this unholy mess. But that doesn't give Israel carte blanche to do what they want in response. It's the worst possible position to even suggest that anything can be excused by pointing out what the other guy did. You don't get to kill innocent people and then excuse it by saying 'we're not as bad as them'. It's morally indefensible. It excuses anything. It allows for everything.

Then there were the reports that Israel knew what Hamas had planned and let it begin…and Israel’s response to declare an actual war and kill ten-for-one seems a bit more calculated.

 

[JosephZ]

Do you think battling a terrorist army in a war is the same thing as a single mall shooter?

Of course not.

 

[Valletta]

Then there were the reports that Israel knew what Hamas had planned and let it begin…and Israel’s response to declare an actual war and kill ten-for-one seems a bit more calculated.

Yes, we all have heard the Hamas propaganda, starting early in the campaign in Gaza by claiming that it was Israel who bombed a hospital.

 

[rjs330]

Yeah I don't know how accurate these stats are. Hamas I'm sure is lying. And I've no doubt that they either kill people themselves or force people to stay where they are just in case Israel hits them so they can rack up the death counts. Knowing the suckers in the media and UN will demand Israel stop the attacks

 

[Pommer]

Yes, we all have heard the Hamas propaganda, starting early in the campaign in Gaza by claiming that it was Israel who bombed a hospital.

Why repeat that though?
We all know it to have been a bogus story…why bring it up?

 

[Bradskii]

And a quick peek at CF in 1945...

'They bombed Dresden?'
'Hitler started it'.
'But there was no military reason for it.'
'Oh, so you support the Nazis, do you?'
'But thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed.'
'Hitler killed lots more.'

 

[Valletta]

And a quick peek at CF in 1945...

'They bombed Dresden?'
'Hitler started it'.
'But there was no military reason for it.'
'Oh, so you support the Nazis, do you?'
'But thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed.'
'Hitler killed lots more.'

I think FDR did a lot of wrong. Certainly the racism of FDR and his vice president Truman cannot be justified.