• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Israel-Hamas Thread II

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
22,862
14,118
Earth
✟249,678.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Because if a country kills all of the ”bad guys” the only “bad guys” left will be the one who killed all of the people.
They will have become the monster that they feared.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,727
612
✟163,492.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually he died because hamas attacked, murdered and kidnapped Israeli citizens and the kid is now living in a war zone. Try pinning the blame where it belongs: hamas.
Responsibility lies with the person whose action caused the death. Your argument means you would declare the vigilante in the Death Wish films innocent. The law does not agree with you.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,727
612
✟163,492.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

Dozens feared dead after apparent strike destroys Gaza refugee camp building

The building was housing more than 100 displaced people from northern Gaza, according to Anas Ah-Sharif, a freelance journalist there.

The IDF did not immediately respond to CNN questions about the blast in the Jabalya refugee camp, which is Gaza's largest.

The IDF had urged residents of several northern Gaza neighborhoods to evacuate and move south of Wadi Gaza on Saturday. The warnings were issued in Arabic on social media, but it is not clear that residents were able to receive the messages because electricity, phone signals and internet access are often disrupted in Gaza.
I'm sure the QR codes on the leaflets would help: Palestinians should learn to read them manually.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,727
612
✟163,492.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We cannot have a reasonable discussion when people are making arguments that are beyond ridiculous - how can we take anyone seriously who effectively argues that no matter how excessive Israel's response might be, all the deaths of Gazans are the moral responsibility of Hamas.

That, franky, is inane.

Imagine a scenario where Canada is a mighty military power and the US is much, much weaker. Now imagine that some American terrorists, whose base of operations is in Manhattan, sneak into Canada and brutally murder thousands. Imagine that Canada then firebombs Manhattan, arguing, legitimately, that the terrorists are hiding out under various Manhattan skyscrapers. And thousands and thousands of innocent Americans die.

Would you then argue "it's the fault of the terrorists"?

We all know the answer.
I've just read a review of a book about My Lai. There were atrocities on both sides but what stood out was how the brave whistle blowers were vilified, how the perpetrators mostly got off scot free and were praised by many of the US public, and how the commanders covered up and suffered no loss including Colin Powell and how Nixon blamed adverse newspaper stories on New York Jews! The Vietcong were dehumanised as "gooks" and the author made the point that young men with automatic weapons do atrocities because they can: but that doesn't make it right or ok or excusable in any way.
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,719
6,235
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,130,846.00
Faith
Atheist
I've just read a review of a book about My Lai. There were atrocities on both sides but what stood out was how the brave whistle blowers were vilified, how the perpetrators mostly got off scot free and were praised by many of the US public, and how the commanders covered up and suffered no loss including Colin Powell and how Nixon blamed adverse newspaper stories on New York Jews! The Vietcong were dehumanised as "gooks" and the author made the point that young men with automatic weapons do atrocities because they can: but that doesn't make it right or ok or excusable in any way.
Hey, look at that: a derogatory term not censored by this board.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,629
6,051
Minnesota
✟336,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Responsibility lies with the person whose action caused the death. Your argument means you would declare the vigilante in the Death Wish films innocent. The law does not agree with you.
Hamas is responsible. Consider the case where someone starts shooting people at a mall. The shooter is ducking behind a desk when firing and is holding a hostage in front of him, but you can't see the hostage. You, whether citizen or police officer, shoot and kill the shooter and unfortunately the hostage as well. You have committed no crime.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,537
16,117
72
Bondi
✟380,986.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Hamas is responsible. Consider the case where someone starts shooting people at a mall. The shooter is ducking behind a desk when firing and is holding a hostage in front of him, but you can't see the hostage. You, whether citizen or police officer, shoot and kill the shooter and unfortunately the hostage as well. You have committed no crime.
I guess you can't see any of the children from 20,000 feet. So that makes it ok.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Vanellus
Upvote 0

Desk trauma

The pickles are up to something
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2011
22,546
18,509
✟1,466,160.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Hey, look at that: a derogatory term not censored by this board.
The filter doesn’t automatically censor, or at least it didn’t used to, slurs like that even the one for North Koreans which is explicitly prohibited in one of the pinned rules threads.
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,719
6,235
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,130,846.00
Faith
Atheist
The filter doesn’t automatically censor, or at least it didn’t used to, slurs like that even the one for North Koreans which is explicitly prohibited in one of the pinned rules threads.
I believe the filter can be configured. If I'm right, this is just a term the PTB didn't think to add to the list.
 
Upvote 0

JosephZ

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2017
4,746
4,657
Davao City
Visit site
✟313,652.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Consider the case where someone starts shooting people at a mall. The shooter is ducking behind a desk when firing and is holding a hostage in front of him, but you can't see the hostage. You, whether citizen or police officer, shoot and kill the shooter and unfortunately the hostage as well. You have committed no crime.
Do you think it would be justifiable for a police officer or private citizen to kill 10 to 15 people and wound 30 more in the process of killing the mall shooter?
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,629
6,051
Minnesota
✟336,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Do you think it would be justifiable for a police officer or private citizen to kill 10 to 15 people and wound 30 more in the process of killing the mall shooter?
Only if the shooter had 10 to 15 people tied up on the floor unknown to the police officer or private citizen. What if the shooter killed the hostages first, should the citizen or police officer be held responsible?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,537
16,117
72
Bondi
✟380,986.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Only if the shooter had 10 to 15 people tied up on the floor unknown to the police officer or private citizen. What if the shooter killed the hostages first, should the citizen or police officer be held responsible?
Are you simply going to keep change the scenario until it seems less brutal? You started off saying that if you couldn't see a single hostage then blazing away is just fine. I think we'll stick with that as an accurate representation of the current situation.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,629
6,051
Minnesota
✟336,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Are you simply going to keep change the scenario until it seems less brutal? You started off saying that if you couldn't see a single hostage then blazing away is just fine. I think we'll stick with that as an accurate representation of the current situation.
While we know what the terrorists did, we don't have an accurate assessment as to who and how many have been killed in Gaza nor as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,537
16,117
72
Bondi
✟380,986.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
While we know what the terrorists did, we don't have an accurate assessment as to who and how many have been killed in Gaza nor as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths.
As your analogy relies on the fact that innocent people died because, well, no-one could see them, then it admits to innocent people being killed in actuality in the case that the analogy is meant to represent. Now that you've realised that, your escape clause is now the accuracy of the numbers and not the fact of those deaths?

I'm not blaming you in particular. This has been the standard of argument for the last 1400 posts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wing2000
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,629
6,051
Minnesota
✟336,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
As your analogy relies on the fact that innocent people died because, well, no-one could see them, then it admits to innocent people being killed in actuality in the case that the analogy is meant to represent. Now that you've realised that, your escape clause is now the accuracy of the numbers and not the fact of those deaths?

I'm not blaming you in particular. This has been the standard of argument for the last 1400 posts.
Nope, just stating what we know and what we don't know. Obviously if Hamas said there were zero innocents killed, and said only Hamas and those who support Hamas were killed, their propaganda campaign would fall apart.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,537
16,117
72
Bondi
✟380,986.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Nope, just stating what we know and what we don't know.
I've know people reject analogies before when they thought they contradicted one's position. I've not known anyone reject their own for the same reason...
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,637
5,519
73
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟589,950.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
what we don't know
we do not know what we do not know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WeDoNotKnow.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,537
16,117
72
Bondi
✟380,986.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
we do not know what we do not know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well, I don't know about that.

But I just noticed that you are from Swansea NSW. Whereas I was originally from Swansea, (Old) South Wales.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip_B
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,629
6,051
Minnesota
✟336,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The United States put the blame on Hamas after Israeli military forces resumed bombarding the Gaza Strip with airstrikes, an end to a weeklong pause in fighting.
The White House said Friday that Hamas failed to deliver a list of hostages the militant group would release. Meanwhile, Israel and Hamas presented conflicting narratives about why the truce ended.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,629
6,051
Minnesota
✟336,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The United States put the blame on Hamas after Israeli military forces resumed bombarding the Gaza Strip with airstrikes, an end to a weeklong pause in fighting.
The White House said Friday that Hamas failed to deliver a list of hostages the militant group would release. Meanwhile, Israel and Hamas presented conflicting narratives about why the truce ended.
The U.S. simply needs to publicly urge Israel to continue to avoid the loss of life of innocents, and remain silent on how Israel should proceed--that should be entirely up to Israel.
 
Upvote 0