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Israel-Hamas Thread II

civilwarbuff

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We cannot have a reasonable discussion when people are making arguments that are beyond ridiculous - how can we take anyone seriously who effectively argues that no matter how excessive Israel's response might be, all the deaths of Gazans are the moral responsibility of Hamas.

That, franky, is inane.
If hamas had not attacked Israel, Israel would not be in Gaza. It is as simple as that. This war is the responsibility of hamas as are all the casualties.
Imagine a scenario where Canada is a mighty military power and the US is much, much weaker. Now imagine that some American terrorists, whose base of operations is in Manhattan, sneak into Canada and brutally murder thousands. Imagine that Canada then firebombs Manhattan, arguing, legitimately, that the terrorists are hiding out under various Manhattan skyscrapers. And thousands and thousands of innocent Americans die.

Would you then argue "it's the fault of the terrorists"?
Absolutely although I also argue that a substantial part of the fault lies with the Gazans themselves for not, at the very least, attempting tor remove or assist other powers, in removing hamas from Gaza. They have had 17 years since hamas seized power to help remove them and they have done nothing. They have not lifted so much as a finger to help themselves. Instead they just cry that they are victims of 'Zionism' and blame the Jews for all their problems. I have no sympathy for the adults. They have made their choice.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Because if a country kills all of the ”bad guys” the only “bad guys” left will be the one who killed all of the people.
They will have become the monster that they feared.
That's not what you argued. Here is your quote:
killing everyone who may have supported those heinous acts is too much though, really.
Your original quote never claimed anything about killing 'all of the people' only those who may have supported those heinous acts. You moved the goal posts (again). So which is it because it makes a difference in how I answer.
 
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JosephZ

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Absolutely although I also argue that a substantial part of the fault lies with the Gazans themselves for not, at the very least, attempting tor remove or assist other powers, in removing hamas from Gaza. They have had 17 years since hamas seized power to help remove them and they have done nothing. They have not lifted so much as a finger to help themselves. Instead they just cry that they are victims of 'Zionism' and blame the Jews for all their problems. I have no sympathy for the adults. They have made their choice.
This is an easy statement to make from the comfort and safety of a country like the United States, where you're fortunate enough not to be under the rule of a terrorist group and a constant threat of violence from them.
 
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civilwarbuff

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This is an easy statement to make from the comfort and safety of a country like the United States, where you're fortunate enough not to be under the rule of a terrorist group and a constant threat of violence from them.
But it does not change the truth of my statement. The French Resistance during WWII provided much help to the Allies during the Nazi occupation of France (especially on D-Day) at great risk to themselves and other non-involved French citizens....and it wasn't from comfort and safety. The Gazans have done absolutely nothing to help themselves out of hamas' grip and, as far as we know, have not helped any nation hostile to hamas to depose them. All it would take is a simple handful of gazans to assist Israel in tunnel location and hamas hideouts, especially as related to hamas leadership, to set hamas back on its heels without endangering gazan civilians.

The French Resistance (French: La Résistance) was a collection of groups that fought the Nazi occupation of France and the collaborationist Vichy régime in France during the Second World War. Resistance cells were small groups of armed men and women (called the Maquis in rural areas)[2][3] who conducted guerrilla warfare and published underground newspapers. They also provided first-hand intelligence information, and escape networks that helped Allied soldiers and airmen trapped behind Axis enemy lines. The Resistance's men and women came from many different parts of French society, including émigrés, academics, students, aristocrats, conservative Roman Catholics (including clergy), Protestants, Jews, Muslims, liberals, anarchists, communists, and some fascists. The proportion of French people who participated in organized resistance has been estimated at from one to three percent of the total population.[4]
 
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essentialsaltes

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essentialsaltes

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Fighting rages around Gaza’s hospitals as U.S. cautions over civilian losses

Later on Friday, the three nearby hospitals — al-Nasr, al-Rantisi and the Gaza Eye Hospital — that had been surrounded by the fighting were evacuated after being given a route by the IDF.
“We were carrying white flags and when we walked out, we passed by the tanks, I was meters away from one,” said Baqr Qaoud, director of the Nasr Hospital. He said some 4,000 people left and he was the last doctor to walk out of the hospital. He watched tanks close in on his hospital as he departed.

The Israeli military said the east side of al-Shifa Hospital “remains open” and denied allegations of assaults on the hospital.

Abu Mughaisib said medical workers at al-Nasr pediatric hospital had to leave babies in incubators behind as they evacuate southward.

A Gaza hospital evacuated​

A nurse at al-Nasr hospital was caring for premature babies. Then he faced the most difficult decision of his life.


The nurse in the besieged hospital was caring for five fragile babies. Infants, born premature, their parents’ whereabouts after a month of war unknown.

the Israel Defense Forces were calling and texting the doctors, urging them to leave.

But ambulances couldn’t safely reach al-Nasr to transport the wounded, and doctors refused to leave the facility without their patients.

The five premature babies were particularly vulnerable. They needed oxygen, and medication administered at regular intervals. There were no portable respirators or incubators to transport them.

Then the IDF delivered an ultimatum, al-Nasr director Bakr Qaoud told The Washington Post: Get out or be bombarded.

The nurse, a Palestinian man who works with Paris-based Doctors Without Borders, saw no choice. He assessed his charges and picked up the strongest one — the baby he thought likeliest to bear a temporary cut to his oxygen supply. He left the other four on their breathing machines, reluctantly, and with his wife, their children and the one baby, headed south.

An official at the adjacent al-Rantisi pediatric cancer center seemed to receive an assurance that ambulances would retrieve patients from both al-Rantisi and al-Nasr. In a telephone conversation with the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, an arm of Israel’s defense ministry, the al-Rantisi official requested ambulances. In a recording of that call released by the Israel Defense Forces, a senior COGAT officer responds in Arabic: “No problem.”

Qaoud, too, said there was “coordination with the Red Cross and Israeli army that we will go out and then these cases will be later evacuated to another hospital that was safe.”

Two weeks later, the pause in hostilities allowed a Gazan journalist to venture into the hospital. In the neonatal intensive care unit, Mohammed Balousha made the awful discovery.

The decomposing bodies of the four babies.

COGAT spokeswoman Shani Sasson told The Post that Israeli forces neither directed al-Nasr’s staff to evacuate nor operated inside the facility.
 
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Vanellus

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Israel reveals signs of Hamas activity at Shifa, but a promised command center remains elusive


What’s more, the rooms [a kitchen, bathroom and two cots found in tunnels within the hospital compound] — bare, small, and rusted — were a far cry from the elaborate command center officials originally said was underneath Shifa.
I was wondering about the huge Hamas command complex that was supposed to be under al Shifa hospital - maybe they packed it up, loaded it on donkeys and took it to Khan Younis and put it under a hospital/school/mosque/church there?

This sounds like the bomb shelter that Israel built under al Shifa in the 1980s and they already knew about.
 
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civilwarbuff

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From your article:
Of what, he asks, were the babies guilty?
“Were they fighters?” he asked. “Were they holding weapons? Were they firing rockets?
“Why does the army hit the oxygen and electricity? Why did the army target them?”

He is asking the wrong questions of the wrong people.

Maybe some better questions for him to pose to hamas and the reporter would be:
1. Why did hamas bring this holocaust on us?
2. Why does hamas think all this death is worth it?
3. Why won't they surrender and save tens of thousands of lives and prevent the suffering of countless hundreds of thousands of others?

Of course we know the the reply:
 
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Valletta

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This is an easy statement to make from the comfort and safety of a country like the United States, where you're fortunate enough not to be under the rule of a terrorist group and a constant threat of violence from them.
The PLO, the "rival" in the last election in Gaza, are also a terrorist organization. The people elected Hamas. It appears that the majority do not believe that Israel should exist. We have situation in the United States where Democrats have sanctioned violence in support of their causes and tried to suppress the rights of other Americans. They are making an effort to eliminate voter ID and other safeguards so there will not be a fair election. They have not yet reached the control that Hamas has in Gaza, but they are on their way. It is not so comfortable here unless you are a Democrat.
 
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o_mlly

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Israel has lost its legitimacy owing it to its bombing of residential blocks, hospitals, schools, churches. mosques and coming out with the pathetic excuse that these are "used by Hamas" like as if Hamas is using every square inch of Gaza - plus its use of white phosphorus.

Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon.
Nonsense. Israel's war against Hamas is a just war. If Israeli acts violate the moral rules of conducting a just war then those acts, and only those acts, are to be investigated and adjudicated. Whether proven true or not, the legitimacy of Isarel prosecuting a just war does not change.
 
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Bradskii

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The U.S. simply needs to publicly urge Israel to continue to avoid the loss of life of innocents...
To continue to avoid the loss of life of innocents? Seriously?
 
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Bradskii

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The PLO, the "rival" in the last election in Gaza, are also a terrorist organization. The people elected Hamas. It appears that the majority do not believe that Israel should exist. We have situation in the United States where Democrats have sanctioned violence in support of their causes and tried to suppress the rights of other Americans. They are making an effort to eliminate voter ID and other safeguards so there will not be a fair election. They have not yet reached the control that Hamas has in Gaza, but they are on their way. It is not so comfortable here unless you are a Democrat.
Utter fiction. I think you just lost the privilege of being taken seriously in this discussion.
 
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civilwarbuff

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To continue to avoid the loss of life of innocents? Seriously?
You have evidence that they are not? Considering the extremely high density of the population and the fact that hamas uses civilians as human shields and also is discouraging/preventing civilians from leaving the northern part of the strip I am surprised that the gazan casualties are not much higher.
 
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Bradskii

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...I am surprised that the gazan casualties are not much higher.
Then they haven't avoided the loss of innocent lives, have they. Apparently, if you can't see them being killed it's ok to flatten entire city blocks.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Then they haven't avoided the loss of innocent lives, have they.
Hamas attacked Israel not the other way around.....JIC you have forgotten. If they had not done that this thread would not even exist. Blame the perp not the victim.
 
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Bradskii

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Hamas attacked Israel not the other way around.....
They did? It must have slipped my mind when pointing out that Israel has not avoided killing innocent people. So to say that they should 'continue to avoid' doing so is abject nonsense. Sorry that escaped you. But here's another chance for you to tell us who started this, which for way too many people seems to be a mantra that excuses them from basic humanitarian concerns. But off you go anyway.
 
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Valletta

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They did? It must have slipped my mind when pointing out that Israel has not avoided killing innocent people. So to say that they should 'continue to avoid' doing so is abject nonsense. Sorry that escaped you. But here's another chance for you to tell us who started this, which for way too many people seems to be a mantra that excuses them from basic humanitarian concerns. But off you go anyway.
Israel HAS done an extraordinary job of avoiding the killing of innocents, please do not fall for Hamas propaganda. To put your faith in Hamas entity reporting is a huge mistake.
 
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Bradskii

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Israel HAS done an extraordinary job of avoiding the killing of innocents, please do not fall for Hamas propaganda. To put your faith in Hamas entity reporting is a huge mistake.
They haven't. There are dead bodies of children. Their mothers. Innocent people. They haven't avoided it at all. And they seem to have made next to no attempt to avoid it. But hey, I just remembered. They couldn't see them so that makes it ok.

For anyone thinking 'What? That makes absolutely no sense at all. That's a blazingly stupid argument'... yeah, I agree.
 
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Valletta

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They haven't. There are dead bodies of children. Their mothers. Innocent people. They haven't avoided it at all. And they seem to have made next to no attempt to avoid it. But hey, I just remembered. They couldn't see them so that makes it ok.

For anyone thinking 'What? That makes absolutely no sense at all. That's a blazingly stupid argument'... yeah, I agree.
How do you know they were not killed by Hamas?
 
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civilwarbuff

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They did?
Sure sounded like it did.
It must have slipped my mind when pointing out that Israel has not avoided killing innocent people.
And I asked if you had evidence that they were not trying to avoid 'killing innocent people' to which you replied:
So to say that they should 'continue to avoid' doing so is abject nonsense.
So present your evidence that they are not; otherwise it is just an opinion.....unsupported opinion.
But here's another chance for you to tell us who started this,
On this thread it appears some have severe short-term memory problems when it comes to this subject......so, happy to help out.
 
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