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Israel-Hamas Thread II

rjs330

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reject the notion we lost Viet Nam because we didn't try hard enough. We lost because we didn't understand the historical and political context of Viet Nam. Military might alone may win battles, but it will not win peace and stability without a political solution.
The same is true in Gaza.
Well you are free to reject whatever you want. But it doesn't make it any less true. We lost because we didn't have the will to win. We succumbed to political pressure of correctness which was enormous.

Yes you should have a plan for what occurs after you win. That's as important as winning. But you have to win first.
 
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Bradskii

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We lost because we didn't have the will to win.
No will? You sent over three million troops there in total. And lost nearly sixty thousand. You think that shows a lack of committment? That position is ridiculous. Maybe you mean that a final and belated realisation that you were not going to win and only lose more lives equates to a lack of will.
We succumbed to political pressure of correctness which was enormous.
Yeah, political correctness. What a laugh. You don't think it had anything to do with the civillian casualties I posted earlier? Nothing to do with the stupendously horrendous number of innocents being killed? Nothing to do with America's friends telling them that they needed to stop?

Peace with honour, the man said. Well, we've all seen the footage.
 
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Valletta

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I reject the notion we lost Viet Nam because we didn't try hard enough. We lost because we didn't understand the historical and political context of Viet Nam. Military might alone may win battles, but it will not win peace and stability without a political solution.
The same is true in Gaza.
In my opinion we lost because of political reasons, a lot of which came from the left in the U.S. and elsewhere. An example would be that the Viet Cong were supposedly totally unrelated to the North Vietnamese and thus our war was not against North Vietnam. Also the critical Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos was not seized because we supposedly were not in a war with Laos, yet the Laotians were puppets of the North Vietnamese and North Vietnamese troops were in Laos. It's a lot like today's left tries to handicap Israel with claims Israel was just waiting to attack civilians in Gaza, etc. and that there should be a cease fire, avoiding the fact that Palestinians think Israel should no longer exist.
 
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Robban

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In fairness that has essentially been the situation since 1948*, when the UN acted without the support of the regional powers on the Levant and Middle East Generally. There is no situation where the West can force the nations of the area to play nicely. Much of this problem is faith-based and ultimately the solutions will need to have a faith-based component.

Western solutions clearly do not work in the Middle East and the last 150 years clearly demonstrate that. On the other hand, it seems that there is little interest in peace in the region if that accepts Israel as part of that solution. Israel is a tough State with advanced Military Capability, and perhaps the lesson of history should be 'don't poke the bear'. Nonetheless, no reasonable person thinks that what we see in our lounge rooms is an acceptable way to treat other human beings - made in the image and after the likeness of God.

May the power of Love overcome the love of Power. Amen.

* I do not see that as the beginning of the problem

Who could have foreseen in 1948 and earlier the massive increase in world population including ME?

1945 around 2 billion+, Today 8 billion+,
what may have been feasable earlier, at a pinch, today is something else.
 
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Robban

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Who could have foreseen in 1948 and earlier the massive increase in world population ?

1945 around 2 billion+, Today 8 billion+,
what may have been feasable earlier, at a pinch, today is something else.

What we need is a miracle!
 
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rjs330

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No will? You sent over three million troops there in total. And lost nearly sixty thousand. You think that shows a lack of committment? That position is ridiculous. Maybe you mean that a final and belated realisation that you were not going to win and only lose more lives equates to a lack of will.
All it did was show our willingness through troops at a lost cause because you didn't have the will do what it took to win that war. Yeah they through troops at it and then tied their hands behind their backs. Go get em Tiger, but you can't use your arms. Yeah you are just sacrificing people at that point.
 
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JosephZ

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Yeah they through troops at it and then tied their hands behind their backs. Go get em Tiger, but you can't use your arms.
During the Vietnam War the United States dropped approximately twice as many tons of bombs in Southeast Asia as the Allied forces combined used against both Germany and Japan in World War II. Between 1964 and 1973, U.S. aircraft expended over seven million tons of bombs in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, compared to 3.4 million tons dropped by the United States and its allies in all of World War II.

U.S. forces used huge amounts of ordnance in the ground war as well, on a level the Army’s logistics command described in one study as “devastating conventional firepower unparalleled in military history.” Noting that American commanders also faced virtually no limit on their ability to move troops, munitions, and supplies, the study’s authors added:

The logistics scene was characterized by almost unlimited supply, remarkable [sic] high operational readiness rates as applied to equipment, a seemingly endless flow of ammunition and petroleum and immunity for the most part from external fiscal restraints.


 
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Vambram

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The following was posted by an online news source on November 24th.


"Hamas terror leader Ismail Haniyeh graciously thanked the world’s most prolific state sponsor of terrorism, Iran, on Thursday for its “firm support” against the ongoing military operation by Israel to eradicate the group in its stronghold of Gaza.
Haniyeh appeared to credit Tehran’s theocratic rulers for playing a role in an agreement with the Israeli government to pause the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) operations in Gaza and free some convicted terrorists in exchange for Hamas freeing some Israeli hostages."

"That operation is expected to pause for four days beginning on Friday. Hamas terrorists claim they will release a group of hostages hours after the pause begins; it remains unclear exactly who among the missing will be released, nor does the public know the exact location where the hostages are expected to be freed.
Israel agreed to the deal after being pressured by the administration of President Joe Biden, according to White House officials.

“The President recognized very early, the only way, the only realistic way to get a humanitarian pause in place — and we support humanitarian pauses irrespective of a hostage deal — is through an agreement to bring the hostages home,” White House Coordinator for the Middle East and North Africa Brett McGurk said on Wednesday, claiming Biden supported “humanitarian pauses irrespective of a hostage deal.”

The Biden administration uses the term “humanitarian pauses” instead of “ceasefire” to refer to a halt in the fighting."

"Haniyeh did not describe the pause as “humanitarian” but, rather, a “political and military” victory in his public remarks alongside Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amir-Abdollahian on Thursday. Iran’s PressTV referred to the “humanitarian pause” as a “ceasefire.”

“This is a political victory that was achieved based on the victory of the resistance in the field and the enemy failed in achieving its goals except for the killing of women and children and citizens and destroying their houses,” Haniyeh reportedly said.

“Despite the initial opposition to the ceasefire, the United States, understanding the realities of the battlefield, was finally forced to surrender to the will of the Palestinian people and the will of the world nations,” he claimed, “and the positive vote of 120 countries to the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly for a ceasefire with Hamas, which shows the US dominance over the international order has diminished.”

 
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Bradskii

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All it did was show our willingness through troops at a lost cause because you didn't have the will do what it took to win that war.
Well, you killed enough people in trying. Which is why it's a stain on US history.
 
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Valletta

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Valletta

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During the Vietnam War the United States dropped approximately twice as many tons of bombs in Southeast Asia as the Allied forces combined used against both Germany and Japan in World War II. Between 1964 and 1973, U.S. aircraft expended over seven million tons of bombs in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, compared to 3.4 million tons dropped by the United States and its allies in all of World War II.

U.S. forces used huge amounts of ordnance in the ground war as well, on a level the Army’s logistics command described in one study as “devastating conventional firepower unparalleled in military history.” Noting that American commanders also faced virtually no limit on their ability to move troops, munitions, and supplies, the study’s authors added:

The logistics scene was characterized by almost unlimited supply, remarkable [sic] high operational readiness rates as applied to equipment, a seemingly endless flow of ammunition and petroleum and immunity for the most part from external fiscal restraints.


The U.S. would not seize the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos nor launch a ground attack against North Vietnam, much because of false information put out by the American left.
 
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Vanellus

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The point was Israel, by chosing to more powerful bombs, has killed far more civilians than US operations in cities such as Mosul and Raqqa. Presumably, that choice was made to reach and destroy underground tunnels. We don't know how effective their bombs have been on that point. However, when tunnels traverse the entire area, the implication most buildings will be detroyed...and high numbers of women and children will be killed. As the NYT article notes:

The bombs being used in Gaza are larger than what the United States used when it was fighting ISIS in cities like Mosul and Raqqa, and are more consistent with targeting underground infrastructure like tunnels, said Brian Castner, a weapons investigator for Amnesty International and a former explosive ordnance disposal officer in the U.S. Air Force.

Not only is Gaza tiny when compared with conflict zones like Iraq, Afghanistan or Ukraine, but the territory’s borders have also been closed by Israel and Egypt, giving civilians few, if any, safe places to flee.

More than 60,000 buildings have been damaged or destroyed in the Gaza Strip, satellite analysis indicates, including about half of the buildings in northern Gaza.



I reject the notion we lost Viet Nam because we didn't try hard enough. We lost because we didn't understand the historical and political context of Viet Nam. Military might alone may win battles, but it will not win peace and stability without a political solution.
The same is true in Gaza.


Many good men and women died because we should have withdrawn from Afghanistan once Al Qaeda was defeated. We failed to learn from the Soviets
There's the issue of proportionality. If someone is shooting at you from the roof of a hospital the proportionate response is to shoot back not to call up a tank to blow up the hospital. Blowing up half of N Gaza is not proportionate.
 
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Vanellus

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In my opinion we lost because of political reasons, a lot of which came from the left in the U.S. and elsewhere. An example would be that the Viet Cong were supposedly totally unrelated to the North Vietnamese and thus our war was not against North Vietnam. Also the critical Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos was not seized because we supposedly were not in a war with Laos, yet the Laotians were puppets of the North Vietnamese and North Vietnamese troops were in Laos. It's a lot like today's left tries to handicap Israel with claims Israel was just waiting to attack civilians in Gaza, etc. and that there should be a cease fire, avoiding the fact that Palestinians think Israel should no longer exist.
Sounds like the German "stab in the back" theory about why they lost WW1. What did that lead to?
 
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Robban

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Stop the world and let all protesters get off.
Edit,
"Protesters" is maybe wrong word.
Moaners and groaners maybe better, maybe.

Those who were bitten by snakes in the desert,
the bite hurts but it is the venom that kills.
 
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JosephZ

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The spokesman for Qatar’s Foreign Ministry said Monday that an agreement has been reached to extend the Israel-Hamas truce for another two days.

Qatar, along with Egypt, has been the key mediator in the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas.

The announcement comes on the final day of a four day truce between the warring sides.


 
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Bradskii

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The U.S. would not seize the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos...
Because it was a neutral country. Which didn't stop the US dropping more bombs on the country than at any time in any war.
 
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Valletta

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There's the issue of proportionality. If someone is shooting at you from the roof of a hospital the proportionate response is to shoot back not to call up a tank to blow up the hospital. Blowing up half of N Gaza is not proportionate.
That's the Palestinian playbook to allow them to continue terror, we've gone through the throwing rocks, just enough of a hold back to play on sympathies of a left leaning press. But it is clear with the butchery of over a thousand, the rape, the torture in front of family members, of exactly who these people are, the people currently holding children hostages. They intend to kill every Jew, they will not tolerate the tiny proportion of land that is Israel in the middle of an Arab population.
 
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