Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Robban]

West and east are just social constructs.

Apart from a compass rose.

The sun goes down in the west and goes up in the east.

Could there be a double meaning in there somewhere.

 

[Chesterton]

Apart from a compass rose.

The sun goes down in the west and goes up in the east.

Could there be a double meaning in there somewhere.

Yes there is meaning. Jews pray towards Jerusalem. Muslims pray towards Mecca. We orthodox Christians pray towards the East, towards the coming of the Light, which is Christ, as He said of Himself.

 

[Robban]

Yes there is meaning. Jews pray towards Jerusalem. Muslims pray towards Mecca. We orthodox Christians pray towards the East, towards the coming of the Light, which is Christ, as He said of Himself.

 

[JosephZ]

Palestinians conducted the attack. Palestinians support Hamas. Palestinians who are not Hamas helped Hamas. Now tell me which Palestinians are Hamas, which ones are supporters and which ones are helping them? If I gave you a crowd and asked you to pick out Hamas, their supporters or helpers and ones that weren't, could you do it? I mean before they killed you. I do t think you could. Oh if there were kids there you could circle them and say, well they aren't Hamas. Are they Hamas' kids who are being taught to kill you? Are they Hamas supporters kids who are also being taught to sill you? If You knew that there were Hamas there and they were going to kill you and you had a choice, either wait to die or try and kill Hamas before they killed you and you knew in doing so you were going to end up killing some non-Hamas, would you just give up and die?

What if you were the one standing between Hamas and you family and friends and you knew if you didn't they would be coming after your children and you wife to slaughter them and you had the ability to prevent it? Would you just lay down and die? Would you ask that if your son, daughter or wife?

Or would you say you are not going to kill mine so I'm going to take you out and if some others have to die to prevent that from happening then so be it? It's on your head.

Your neighbor keeps killing your children and friends. And then hides behind his children and friends. But you don't know exactly which of them is doing it. Do you allow him to keep doing it?

In each of your above scenarios, I'm not going to act without forethought and will not take any action before first calculating the risks to myself and my family and the response I may get in return for my actions. I would not respond to the threat out of emotion and would take the time to investigate and find out exactly which neighbor it is that's responsible for the deaths of my loved ones, and I would then neutralize them.

 

[JosephZ]

Because others have not provided any other way to defeat Hamas. Others want Israel to stop. Stopping won't defeat Hamas. Hamas isn't going to stop.

I provided a strategy that didn't require Israel to stop going after Hamas and has been successful in defeating terrorist groups in the past, but you were unwilling to accept such an idea.

Israel IS defeating Hamas. What they are doing is working.

Israel isn't defeating Hamas; what they have been doing up to this point has been helping Hamas. I explained why in this post back on October 12th, when I said that with every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born. It's a matter of counter-insurgency mathematics. Israel has ignored this principle and will have a heavy price to pay going forward with a growing number of terrorists and terrorist sympathizers on its borders and a continuation of terror attacks against its citizens, perhaps bigger than what was seen on October 7th, for at least a generation. Israel's poorly thought-out response and overreaction to the October 7th terrorist attack has not only made Israel less safe but also much of the world.

 

[rjs330]

Sunrise in the west may help too.

Yup

 

[rjs330]

US and allied military: 280,000
PAVN/VC military deaths: 500,000+
Vietnamese civilian deaths: 500,000+
Cambodians: 250,000+
Laotians: 60,000+

Is it any wonder? Kill so many innocents and people have a tendency to complain.

No no no you missed the point entirely. We fought a political war. We didn't need to lose that many. Totally botched by not fighting the war to overwhelm and destroy the enemy. In the end we lost far more than was necessary.

Of course each war is different. Every war cannot be fought exactly the same. So it is with the war on Hamas.

Do not fight a politically correct war. Follow international law to the best of your ability, but know that you probably won't be perfect with it. But do what must be done to destroy Hamas. In this war the only deaths that are too many is the deliberate killing of civilians for absolutely no reason. Like what Hamas does. There is a video from Hamas' attacks where they killed this teen girl. Her friend tries to run and they catch her. Force her to her knees and then execute her as she pleads for her life. She wasn't a legitimate military target. The IDF wasn't hiding behind her while trying to kill Hamas. She wasn't in a military headquarters.

Doing exactly what Israel isn't.

 

[Valletta]

Israel's poorly thought-out response and overreaction to the October 7th terrorist attack has not only made Israel less safe but also much of the world.

Israel needs to quickly eliminate Hamas. There have been seventy some attacks on American forces and Iran and Hezbollah are eager to try and destroy Israel and the United States.

 

[Valletta]

Palestinian activists wisely recognized that “Kill the Jews” doesn’t have the same ring to it. So, they’ve repackaged it into something slightly more sanitized — a slogan that might sound more geographical than genocidal. But don’t be misled. Recently, Ghazi Hamad, Hamas’ spokesman, told Lebanese TV that Israel must be wiped off the map. When the reporter asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel’s people, Hamad replied: “Yes, of course.”

Don’t be fooled. ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’ means only one thing | Opinion

Palestinian activists wisely recognized that “Kill the Jews” doesn’t have the same ring to it | Opinion

www.yahoo.com

 

[Philip_B]

Palestinian activists wisely recognized that “Kill the Jews” doesn’t have the same ring to it. So, they’ve repackaged it into something slightly more sanitized — a slogan that might sound more geographical than genocidal. But don’t be misled. Recently, Ghazi Hamad, Hamas’ spokesman, told Lebanese TV that Israel must be wiped off the map. When the reporter asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel’s people, Hamad replied: “Yes, of course.”

Don’t be fooled. ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’ means only one thing | Opinion

Palestinian activists wisely recognized that “Kill the Jews” doesn’t have the same ring to it | Opinion

www.yahoo.com

In fairness that has essentially been the situation since 1948*, when the UN acted without the support of the regional powers on the Levant and Middle East Generally. There is no situation where the West can force the nations of the area to play nicely. Much of this problem is faith-based and ultimately the solutions will need to have a faith-based component.

Western solutions clearly do not work in the Middle East and the last 150 years clearly demonstrate that. On the other hand, it seems that there is little interest in peace in the region if that accepts Israel as part of that solution. Israel is a tough State with advanced Military Capability, and perhaps the lesson of history should be 'don't poke the bear'. Nonetheless, no reasonable person thinks that what we see in our lounge rooms is an acceptable way to treat other human beings - made in the image and after the likeness of God.

May the power of Love overcome the love of Power. Amen.

* I do not see that as the beginning of the problem

 

[Bradskii]

No no no you missed the point entirely. We fought a political war. We didn't need to lose that many.

Check the civilian deaths again. I don't think you'll find many people at the time saying 'Hey, this is a great idea. Just keep going!' Friends of the US were urging them to leave. The UK being most prominent.

That's what friends are for. To tell you when you have gone too far.

 

[rjs330]

So it's better to have more civilian deaths guaranteed than soldiers at risk. I think we've seen that tactic before. See my last post.

Your last post simply made my point for me which was we lost more soldiers because we weren't trying to win. We were more concerned with a political war. Which is what you want to turn this into.

 

[rjs330]

Check the civilian deaths again. I don't think you'll find many people at the time saying 'Hey, this is a great idea. Just keep going!' Friends of the US were urging them to leave. The UK being most prominent.

That's what friends are for. To tell you when you have gone too far.

And we didn't win the war did we. Because we gave in to the political pressure that you want to put Israel under ensuring they are not going to get rid of Hamas. That's the final outcome of your friendly pressure. They will be subject to more attacks. Gaza will remain blockaded as Israel continues to try and stop Hamas from attacking. Gaza will continue to get financial support that Hamas will steal and the Gazans will go on suffering under their leadership.

 

[Robban]

Palestinian activists wisely recognized that “Kill the Jews” doesn’t have the same ring to it. So, they’ve repackaged it into something slightly more sanitized — a slogan that might sound more geographical than genocidal. But don’t be misled. Recently, Ghazi Hamad, Hamas’ spokesman, told Lebanese TV that Israel must be wiped off the map. When the reporter asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel’s people, Hamad replied: “Yes, of course.”

Don’t be fooled. ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’ means only one thing | Opinion

Palestinian activists wisely recognized that “Kill the Jews” doesn’t have the same ring to it | Opinion

www.yahoo.com

This is nothing new, through time many are those who wanted Israel gotten rid of.

I suspect it is deep rooted in fear,
since coming out of Egypt beginning with Amelek.

And so has it continued, one example would be,
Numbers 22:2-4.

This is only my thoughrs, but fear does do strange things.

 

[civilwarbuff]

But this doesn’t automatically make the Israelis “the good guys”.

Neither does it automatically make the Israelis "the bad guys" which far too many here are trying to do. I wish people would stop supporting terrorists by trying to justify their attacks. There is never a justification for terrorism.
terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. Terrorism | Definition, History, & Facts

 

[civilwarbuff]

This is interesting look at the hamas tunnels. It is likely a training video or propaganda vid to circulate only amongst hamas since many of their soldiers appear without face coverings; something only the political masters do (maybe thinking they are untouchable?). Notice that the videographers view is set up and ready to film exits and entrance to tunnels of hamas soldiers.

 

[Vanellus]

Trouble is when you see IDF faking videos like this then one must be sceptical of any IDF output

 

[Vanellus]

Did someone here write that Israel doesn't attack hospitals?


Must have been a misdirected Hamas rocket! Maybe that's true of all the bomb damage in N Gaza - approx 50%

 

[wing2000]

This is an important point. And often is subtle to get. The question becomes do you want to fight a 20 year war? Because if you are so afraid of killing civilians in a war of this nature then it's going to be a very long drawn out affair. The allies defeated Germany and Japan in just a few years. And that was over a much larger area than Afghanistan or Iraq.

The point was Israel, by chosing to more powerful bombs, has killed far more civilians than US operations in cities such as Mosul and Raqqa. Presumably, that choice was made to reach and destroy underground tunnels. We don't know how effective their bombs have been on that point. However, when tunnels traverse the entire area, the implication most buildings will be detroyed...and high numbers of women and children will be killed. As the NYT article notes:

The bombs being used in Gaza are larger than what the United States used when it was fighting ISIS in cities like Mosul and Raqqa, and are more consistent with targeting underground infrastructure like tunnels, said Brian Castner, a weapons investigator for Amnesty International and a former explosive ordnance disposal officer in the U.S. Air Force.

Not only is Gaza tiny when compared with conflict zones like Iraq, Afghanistan or Ukraine, but the territory’s borders have also been closed by Israel and Egypt, giving civilians few, if any, safe places to flee.

More than 60,000 buildings have been damaged or destroyed in the Gaza Strip, satellite analysis indicates, including about half of the buildings in northern Gaza.

Dragging out a war only costs more of your peoples lives and more money. This is precisely why we lost the Vietnam war. People started crying "it's too much!". It's exactly why S Vietnam was taken over by the communists.

I reject the notion we lost Viet Nam because we didn't try hard enough. We lost because we didn't understand the historical and political context of Viet Nam. Military might alone may win battles, but it will not win peace and stability without a political solution.
The same is true in Gaza.

War is an ugly thing and death is a certainty. But if you are going fight one then it should be over as quickly as possible. I know a lot of good men who died in Afghanistan who didn't need to. All because America was too squeamish and fought a politically correct war.

Many good men and women died because we should have withdrawn from Afghanistan once Al Qaeda was defeated. We failed to learn from the Soviets

 

[essentialsaltes]

4-year-old Israeli American hostage is released​

Abigail Edan, the 4-year-old American dual citizen abducted by Hamas on October 7, has been released – marking the first successful release of an American hostage since the start of a truce between Israel and Hamas. Edan is one of the 17 hostages released Sunday.