Israel-Hamas Thread II

[rjs330]

Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization that has no regard for Palestinian lives.
What is your point?

Palestinians have no regard for Israeli lives. What's your point?

 

[Pommer]

Just more evidence we could have won the war but tied our troops hands behind their backs. Geez its not wonder you guys can't figure out what it takes to win. Israel is beating Hamas. And you want them to stop. Then you think we did everything necessary In vietnam. Sigh.

We lost vietnam because we didn't do what it took to win. We sacrificing a ton of lives And using a lot of bullets doesn't win you a war. Your strategy matters.

Yes, we could’ve “won” the Vietnam war but at the cost of several million more dead.
Odd thing to “lament”.

 

[wing2000]

Yes, we could’ve “won” the Vietnam war but at the cost of several million more dead.
Odd thing to “lament”.

Even Nixon had his limits: {1985 inteview with Nixon)

One of Mr. Nixon's top priorities upon taking office, he said, was bringing an end to the Vietnam war while seeking improved relations with the Soviet Union.
''One of the options was the nuclear option, in other words, massive escalation: either bombing the dikes or the nuclear option,'' Mr. Nixon said.
He said he rejected both a nuclear attack and a bombing of the dikes in North Vietnam, where he estimated a million people would have drowned.

NIXON SAYS HE CONSIDERED USING ATOMIC WEAPONS ON 4 OCCASIONS (Published 1985)

www.nytimes.com

 

[Pommer]

Even Nixon had his limits: {1985 inteview with Nixon)

One of Mr. Nixon's top priorities upon taking office, he said, was bringing an end to the Vietnam war while seeking improved relations with the Soviet Union.
''One of the options was the nuclear option, in other words, massive escalation: either bombing the dikes or the nuclear option,'' Mr. Nixon said.
He said he rejected both a nuclear attack and a bombing of the dikes in North Vietnam, where he estimated a million people would have drowned.

NIXON SAYS HE CONSIDERED USING ATOMIC WEAPONS ON 4 OCCASIONS (Published 1985)

www.nytimes.com

A Zap Brannigan only comes along once a millennium.

 

[JosephZ]

...sacrificing a ton of lives And using a lot of bullets doesn't win you a war. Your strategy matters.

This is correct. Israel can continue to drop an unprecedented amount of bombs, kill thousands of terrorists and tens of thousands of Palestinians in the process, and still lose the war. In fact, that's the path they are currently on. As for a strategy, Israel doesn't even have a plan for what to do after the guns fall silent.

 

[Philip_B]

...so Musk pays a visit after re-tweeting a message that many perceived to be anti-semtice (with major avertisers leaving X). Hopefully, he understands how reckless his actions were...

As both Jews and Palestinians in the main are Semitic people, the anti-semitic catch cry is simply ill-informed.

For the past 150 years the West, especially the USA, UK, France, Netherlands and others have been messing around in the Middle East, largely for their own interests, rather than for the welfare of the residents of the region. None of the western proposed or imposed solutions have achieved much for the people of the area. These are ancient cultures with long-held convictions, and it is just arrogant to think we can fix it now.

It is entirely possible, if not probable, that we have no idea what is going on. It is possible that Iran, or indeed another state actor may simply be using the Palestinian discontent to their own advantage. In the main, we do not have a bone in this fight, save that none of us cares to see human life, made in the image and after the likeness of God being so despoiled.

History tells us that true and lasting peace requires justice, patience, compromise and concession and can only be built on mutual respect. It is however hard to hear the arguments amidst the roar of bombs, and the cries o the mutilated.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The war may have started on October 7th but it hasn't reached even to 10% of its intensity as the northern border hasn't yet been dealth with. Hezbollah is way stronger than Hamas

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

These are still 9 Israeli children being held hostage in Gaza. They are:
Kfir Bibas, 10 months
Ariel Bibas, 4
Gali Tarshansky, 13
Amit Shani, 16
Ofir Engel, 17
Maya Leimberg, 17
Aisha Zaidna, 17
Liam Or, 18
Itay Regev, 18

Let's pray to God for their safe release

 

[Bradskii]

As for a strategy, Israel doesn't even have a plan for what to do after the guns fall silent.

I think that they do. And It's more of the same.

 

[Valletta]

The consequences of its coverage are plain and on regular display in the hate marches on the streets of the UK. The Met Police recorded an increase of over 1,000 per cent in anti-Semitic hate crimes in October. The BBC has become a national broadcasting disservice.

I warned the BBC it was spreading dangerous Hamas propaganda. It refused to see reason

Last week, the BBC’s Executive Complaints Unit refused to uphold complaints about the BBC News Channel’s coverage of the situation in Gaza, including its serious propagation of false information about the Al-Ahli hospital in Gaza City on 17 October 2023.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Desk trauma]

This quote from Elon Musk after visiting the sites where innocents were murdered.

“Thank you for having me. It was certainly an emotionally difficult day, to see the places where people were murdered. And also to watch the video where the murderers are rejoicing. Celebrating the murder of innocent people is extremely disturbing. So we have to do whatever we whatever is necessary to stop the hate. Essentially these people have been fed propaganda since they were children. And it's remarkable what humans are capable of if they're fed falsehoods, from when they are children, they will think that the murder of innocent people is a good thing. That is how much propaganda can affect people's minds. So you know, I actually did talk with the Prime Minister. And I think there's three things that need to happen in the Gaza situation, there's no choice but to kill those who insist on murdering civilians. You are notgoing to change their mind. But the second thing is to change the education so the new generation of murderers is not trained to be murderers. And the third thing, which also very important is to try to build prosperity.”

So rich he can get the Israeli PM to wipe egg off his face.

 

[Vanellus]

Even some of the sickest and most twisted human beings in history have not shown such cowardice as Hamas. Hamas is afraid to take on Israeli soldiers one on one so they attack the babies and the elderly and celebrate their beheading and torture. They hide underground using hospitals and women and children for protection. Still they hold hostages. This is the way of the jihadist. So the Israelis, after taking considerable time to help the civilians get away, bomb the tunnel network. Yes there is a large force of Palestinians who are either Hamas or Hamas supporters, that somehow Israel is supposed to count and stop bombing at exactly the same number of Israelis dead has never been followed by any nation. Israel is outnumbered by jihadists in areas surrounding them and has a tiny land area compared to surrounding Muslims. Yes jihadists beg and plead it is not fair and then go on to their next slaughter. They believe their religion allows them to lie. After the Jews they will go after the Christians.

One of the Hamas targets on Oct 7 was the Re'im military base

At 10:00 am, less than five hours after Hamas attacked, fighting was reported outside of the Re'im Army Base, which is headquarters for the Gaza Division.[4] According to one report, all of the soldiers at the base were 'killed or captured'.[5] The base was reportedly the location of IDF drone and surveillance operations. Hamas reportedly posted a video of dead Israeli soldiers it had killed at the base.[6] Later in the day, Israeli Defense Forces regained control of the military base.[7][1]

Battle of Re'im - Wikipedia

References included
How the Hamas attack on Israel unfolded

Israel's military said at 10 a.m. that Palestinian fighters had penetrated at least three military installations around the frontier - the Erez border crossing, the Zikim base and the Gaza division headquarters at Reim. It said fighting at Erez and Zikim continued.

Hamas invasion death toll rises to 800 as Israel prepares for far more dangerous threat from north | World Israel News

In total, roughly 1,000 terrorists invaded Israel from the Gaza Strip, overrunning the Erez crossing in the northern Gaza Strip and the Re’im army base south of central Gaza.

The IDF forces stationed along the border and in the Re’im base were killed or captured.

Once Israeli forces on the border were wiped out, terrorists inside Gaza breached the border fence using explosives and a bulldozer, allowing additional terrorists to flood into Israel.

 

[Vanellus]

Even some of the sickest and most twisted human beings in history have not shown such cowardice as Hamas. Hamas is afraid to take on Israeli soldiers one on one so they attack the babies and the elderly and celebrate their beheading and torture. They hide underground using hospitals and women and children for protection. Still they hold hostages. This is the way of the jihadist. So the Israelis, after taking considerable time to help the civilians get away, bomb the tunnel network. Yes there is a large force of Palestinians who are either Hamas or Hamas supporters, that somehow Israel is supposed to count and stop bombing at exactly the same number of Israelis dead has never been followed by any nation. Israel is outnumbered by jihadists in areas surrounding them and has a tiny land area compared to surrounding Muslims. Yes jihadists beg and plead it is not fair and then go on to their next slaughter. They believe their religion allows them to lie. After the Jews they will go after the Christians.

Israeli official says government cannot confirm babies were beheaded in Hamas attack​

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

The Israeli government has not confirmed the specific claim that Hamas attackers cut off the heads of babies during their shock attack on Saturday, an Israeli official told CNN, contradicting a previous public statement by the Prime Minister’s office.

“There have been cases of Hamas militants carrying out beheadings and other ISIS-style atrocities. However, we cannot confirm if the victims were men or women, soldiers or civilians, adults or children,” the official said.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu indicated that people had been beheaded by Hamas in an appearance beside Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Thursday, but did not specify if they were children.

 

[civilwarbuff]

A very short but interesting video that asks some difficult questions (especially of the media).

 

[wing2000]

Clearly intense ariel bombing, combined with cutting off resources needed for civilians to survive is not a tenable strategy going forward.

The United States has warned Israel that it must fight more surgically and avoid further mass displacement of Palestinians in its war against Hamas to avoid a humanitarian crisis that overwhelms the world’s ability to respond, according to senior Biden administration officials.

The White House has told Israel that replicating the scale of its bombardment in northern Gaza as it makes an expected push into southern Gaza once the recent pause in fighting ends would produce a crisis beyond the capacity of any humanitarian support network, the officials said on Monday night. The United Nations has said the fighting has already displaced most of Gaza’s population of 2.2 million.
.....
Among other things, American officials have told the Israelis that any coming military operations should not hamper the flow of power and water or impede the work of humanitarian sites such as hospitals and U.N.-supported shelters in south and central Gaza.

The Israeli government was receptive to the requests, one official said.

U.S. Has Warned Israel to Fight More Surgically in Gaza, Officials Say (Published 2023)

American officials have told the Israelis that a major bombardment risks sparking a humanitarian crisis that overwhelms the world’s capacity to respond.

www.nytimes.com

 

[wing2000]

William J. Burns, the C.I.A. director, arrived in Doha, Qatar, on Tuesday for a new round of negotiations aimed at freeing more hostages held in Gaza, according to U.S. officials.

Mr. Burns and David Barnea, the head of the Mossad, Israel’s spy service, are scheduled to meet with Qatari officials. Qatar, which hosts Hamas’s political leadership in Doha, has been a mediator in the talks between Israel and Hamas.

President Biden has often used Mr. Burns as a secret negotiator, taking advantage of his long diplomatic experience and the C.I.A.’s policy of trying to keep the director’s travel secret.

Mr. Burns is particularly well suited for the current negotiations. A former ambassador to Jordan, he has a deep level of trust with leaders across the Middle East, according to U.S., Israeli and Arab officials. During his visit to Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Qatar earlier this month, he focused largely on building support for an agreement to release hostages.

C.I.A. Director Arrives in Qatar for Talks on Hostage Releases

William J. Burns, the C.I.A. head, and David Barnea, who leads the Mossad, Israel’s spy service, are scheduled to meet with officials in Qatar, which has been mediating talks between Israel and Hamas.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Chesterton]

The war may have started on October 7th but it hasn't reached even to 10% of its intensity as the northern border hasn't yet been dealth with. Hezbollah is way stronger than Hamas

Something that might get overlooked is that the severe destruction in Gaza has probably helped to keep this from becoming WWIII. Yes, peace through power. Early on in the campaign, when Hezbollah started firing rockets, Netanyahu said bluntly (although I forget his exact words) that if Hezbollah opens up a second front, Lebanon will be destroyed, and Damascus will be destroyed. And Iran certainly knows that the U.S. could destroy Tehran.

I wish the U.S. were showing a much stronger response to the attacks our soldiers are suffering. Showing weakness emboldens the bad guys to spread more violence.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Something that might get overlooked is that the severe destruction in Gaza has probably helped to keep this from becoming WWIII. Yes, peace through power. Early on in the campaign, when Hezbollah started firing rockets, Netanyahu said bluntly (although I forget his exact words) that if Hezbollah opens up a second front, Lebanon will be destroyed, and Damascus will be destroyed. And Iran certainly knows that the U.S. could destroy Tehran.

I wish the U.S. were showing a much stronger response to the attacks our soldiers are suffering. Showing weakness emboldens the bad guys to spread more violence.

Hamas and Hezbollah (and few others) are proxies or Iran, who wants to destroy Israel. Iran wants the war far away from their country. Iran's plan was to surprise and attack Israel with all it's proxies at the same time, but Hamas (by providence of God) jumped the gun, because they wanted glory for themselves. What that however done, is that Israel is more ready than they were before 7th of Oct, and more and more Jews are returning to Israel. We also have started to see the beginning of Iran, Russia and Turkey coalition, the countries from Ezekiel 38. But in the war of Ezekiel 38, Israel has no allies, and they are on their own. That must mean something will happen for USA to stop helping Israel. Or Israel will do something stupid and everyone will abandon them.

 

[Pommer]

Hamas and Hezbollah (and few others) are proxies or Iran, who wants to destroy Israel. Iran wants the war far away from their country. Iran's plan was to surprise and attack Israel with all it's proxies at the same time, but Hamas (by providence of God) jumped the gun, because they wanted glory for themselves. What that however done, is that Israel is more ready than they were before 7th of Oct, and more and more Jews are returning to Israel. We also have started to see the beginning of Iran, Russia and Turkey coalition, the countries from Ezekiel 38. But in the war of Ezekiel 38, Israel has no allies, and they are on their own. That must mean something will happen for USA to stop helping Israel. Or Israel will do something stupid and everyone will abandon them.

How many modern military minds do you think consult their Bibles before making a move in this region?
And why the Bible, why not Harry Potter?

 

[rjs330]

This is correct. Israel can continue to drop an unprecedented amount of bombs, kill thousands of terrorists and tens of thousands of Palestinians in the process, and still lose the war. In fact, that's the path they are currently on. As for a strategy, Israel doesn't even have a plan for what to do after the guns fall silent.

I don't know, they have put Hamas in a place where they are having to negotiate hostage release. That might be good. They captured places, they are pushing Hamas. They are finding locations where Hamas was storing weapons. I think they are winning. You might challenge their strategy and ask could you have win a different way? I don't know if they could have or not. The Gazans were told to get out. They were warned. Many tried and were prevented by Hamas from getting out. That's on Hamas. Not Israel. But I also heard some Palestinians say they were refusing to get out. Well that's on them. They took the chance and lost.

Hamas used the citizens as shields hiding among them in the refugee cities. Fighting from there. That's on Hamas, not Israel. Bombing is a critical part of war. Always has been, always will be. The left is so against it. They would rather send in the troops on the ground, man on man. Can't use artillery or tanks cause if you shoot a tank at a building you might kill civilians. Artillery might kill civilians. You get shot at from a building you should send in men to avoid citizen deaths and instead put your men at more risk to get shot, grenaded or hit with booby traps.

It's like they prefer the old English way if fighting where both armies line up and shoot at each other.

Except in this case the he other side has all lined up behind citizens and the other side isn't allowed to shoot, but the other side can.
Secondly you have to push forward. Which Israel is doing. Capturing land and places. They are winning the war.