Infallible Authority Of The Church.

[AlightSeeker]

Not only is politics not faithful to God but each other as well.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Cardinal Gibbons remarked:

Our Lord Himself has never ceased to rule personally over His Church. It is time enough for little men to take charge of the Ship when the great Captain abandons the helm.​

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A Protestant gentleman of very liberal education remarked to me, before the opening of the late Ecumenical Council: “I am assured, sir, by a friend, in confidence, that, at a secret Conclave of Bishops recently held in Rome it was resolved that the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception would be reconsidered and abolished at the approaching General Council; in fact, that the definition was a mistake, and that the blunder of 1854 would be repaired in 1869.” I told him, of course, that no such question could be entertained in the Council; that the doctrinal decrees of the Church were irrevocable, and that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was defined once and forever.​

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If only one instance could be given in which the Church ceased to teach a doctrine of faith which had been previously held, that single instance would be the death blow of her claim to infallibility. But it is a marvellous fact worthy of record that in the whole history of the Church, from the nineteenth century to the first, no solitary example can be adduced to show that any Pope or General Council ever revoked a decree of faith or morals enacted by any preceding Pontiff or Council. Her record in the past ought to be a sufficient warrant that she will tolerate no doctrinal variations in the future.​

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If, as we have seen, the Church has authority from God to teach, and if she teaches nothing but the truth, is it not the duty of all Christians to hear her voice and obey her commands? She is the organ of the Holy Ghost. She is the Representative of Jesus Christ, who has said to her: “He that heareth you heareth Me; he that despiseth you despiseth Me.” She is the Mistress of truth. It is the property of the human mind to embrace truth wherever it finds it. It would, therefore, be not only an act of irreverence, but of sheer folly, to disobey the voice of this ever-truthful Mother.​

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If a citizen is bound to obey the laws of his country, though these laws may not in all respects be conformable to strict justice; if a child is bound by natural and divine law to obey his mother, though she may sometimes err in her judgments, how much more strictly are not we obliged to be docile to the teachings of the Catholic Church, our Mother, whose admonitions are always just, whose precepts are immutable!​

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“For twenty years,” observed a recently converted Minister of the Protestant Church, “I fought and struggled against the Church with all the energy of my will. But when I became a Catholic all my doubts ended, my inquiries ceased. I became as a little child, and rushed like a lisping babe into the arms of my mother.” By Baptism Christians become children of the Church, no matter who pours upon them the regenerating waters. If she is our Mother, where is our love and obedience? When the infant seeks nourishment at its mother's breast it does not analyse its food. When it receives instructions from its mother's lips it never doubts, but instinctively believes. When the mother stretches forth her hand the child follows unhesitatingly. The Christian should have for his spiritual Mother all the simplicity, all the credulity, I might say, of a child, guided by the instincts of faith. “Unless ye become,” says our Lord, “as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”133 “As new-born babes, desire the rational milk without guile; that thereby you may grow unto salvation.”134 In her nourishment there is no poison; in her doctrines there is no guile.​

 

[Servus]

You appear to put far too much faith in your own person, as if no one else has had personal encounters with God.

This thread is getting derailed by the usual "everyone is blind except for me, and let's make the topic about me".

 

[AlightSeeker]

You appear to put far too much faith in your own person, as if no one else has had personal encounters with God.

I said I don't know what God does in them. I said I know only what I see. I see politics. Politics doesn't bear the fruit of the spirit.

 

[AlightSeeker]

This thread is getting derailed by the usual "everyone is blind except for me, and let's make the topic about me".

My apologies. I'll step away now. I just wanted to praise the Lord

 

[Fervent]

I said I don't know what God does in them. I said I know only what I see. I see politics. Politics doesn't bear the fruit of the spirit.

God works through means. If it took perfect servants to do God's work, then it would not get done. Politics are bound to be a part of it, unfortunate but expected. God continues to work, in spite of the flaws of human beings.

 

[AlightSeeker]

God works through means. If it took perfect servants to do God's work, then it would not get done. Politics are bound to be a part of it, unfortunate but expected. God continues to work, in spite of the flaws of human beings.

Politicians rule the Godless. They fornicate with the mother of unfaithfulness and abominations of the world and those who follow them drink the cup of her adulteries and Gods wrath. God calls his people out of her and out of the world too. The world fornicates with her. 1 Corinthians 5:12

 

[Fervent]

Politicians rule the Godless. They fornicate with the mother of unfaithfulness and abominations of the world and those who follow them drink the cup of her adulteries and Gods wrath. God calls his people out of her and out of the world too. The world fornicates with her. 1 Corinthians 5:12

"politicians" is a wide net...what exactly do you mean by such a charge?

 

[AlightSeeker]

"politicians" is a wide net...what exactly do you mean by such a charge?

I must bow out. It's not my charge either but it's God's warning from Scripture.

 

[Fervent]

I must bow out. It's not my charge either but it's God's warning from Scripture.

A common defense for charlatans. It's not me, it's Scripture. No, it's your twist on Scripture.

 

[Markie Boy]

Back to the original topic - Infallible Authority of the Church.

The simplest example I have is eating meat on Friday. Used to be every Friday was to be meatless, and to eat a burger was mortal sin = go to Hell if you die before getting to confession.

Now it's only Fridays during Lent.

It's this kind of authority I find to be not infallible. There are many paths like this in Catholicism.

They used to mandate fasting for the night before communion. Now it's just one hour. If as they say, Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper - he did it smack in the middle of a meal with ZERO fasting? Is the RCC smarter than Jesus?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Back to the original topic - Infallible Authority of the Church.

The simplest example I have is eating meat on Friday. Used to be every Friday was to be meatless, and to eat a burger was mortal sin = go to Hell if you die before getting to confession.

Now it's only Fridays during Lent.

It's this kind of authority I find to be not infallible. There are many paths like this in Catholicism.

They used to mandate fasting for the night before communion. Now it's just one hour. If as they say, Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper - he did it smack in the middle of a meal with ZERO fasting? Is the RCC smarter than Jesus?

Friday fasts were a discipline and not a doctrine; and eating meat on a Friday was not in and of itself a mortal sin, but doing so deliberately with the intention of spitefully disobeying the Church was such a sin. Really, you ought not make things up as you go along. Check the facts first.

Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.​

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Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless (nisi) they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.​

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Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.​

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Canon 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.​

 

[Servus]

Friday fasts were a discipline and not a doctrine; and eating meat on a Friday was not in and of itself a mortal sin, but doing so deliberately with the intention of spitefully disobeying the Church was such a sin. Really, you ought not make things up as you go along. Check the facts first.

Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.​

​

Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless (nisi) they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.​

​

Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.​

​

Canon 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.​

Does "meat" mean animal flesh or all food? Also I recall hearing fish is the only animal flesh that can be eaten on Friday.

 

[tampasteve]

Does "meat" mean animal flesh or all food? Also I recall hearing fish is the only animal flesh that can be eaten on Friday.

Largely it means terrestrial animal flesh. Fish, reptiles and shellfish are OK as are, strangely, beaver and capybara IIRC. Also pulses and any sort of fruit or vegetable matter.

 

[Markie Boy]

Friday fasts were a discipline and not a doctrine; and eating meat on a Friday was not in and of itself a mortal sin, but doing so deliberately with the intention of spitefully disobeying the Church was such a sin. Really, you ought not make things up as you go along. Check the facts first.

Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.​

​

Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless (nisi) they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.​

​

Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.​

​

Canon 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.​

The truth is generally simple. This is a good example of things. There is so much detailed fine print with everything, there is no way it's Apostolic. You need a manual to know which side of your mouth you are allowed to chew gum on.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The truth is generally simple. This is a good example of things. There is so much detailed fine print with everything, there is no way it's Apostolic. You need a manual to know which side of your mouth you are allowed to chew gum on.

None of the print is fine. It's all normal sized. And there is not much in it. Did you read it?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Largely it means terrestrial animal flesh. Fish, reptiles and shellfish are OK as are, strangely, beaver and capybara IIRC. Also pulses and any sort of fruit or vegetable matter.

It is a discipline, a practise that serves a purpose but it isn't a dogma or doctrine of the church nor is it a moral teaching of the church; it is just something that is valuable for disciplining the body and growth in the Spirit.

 

[tampasteve]

It is a discipline, a practise that serves a purpose but it isn't a dogma or doctrine of the church nor is it a moral teaching of the church; it is just something that is valuable for disciplining the body and growth in the Spirit.

I agree, fasting is common in Protestant circles as well, so I don't see any issues with it being a discipline. Fasting during Lent is common in many of the "higher" denominations like Lutherans and Anglicans.

 

[Servus]

I agree, fasting is common in Protestant circles as well, so I don't see any issues with it being a discipline. Fasting during Lent is common in many of the "higher" denominations like Lutherans and Anglicans.

Fasting during Lent is encouraged in the Pentecostal church I attend. So is Ash Wednesday etc.

 

[Markie Boy]

I don't have an issue with fasting - it's a good practice, and one I don't do enough.

What I have issue with is connecting mandatory diet restrictions to salvation. In the end it is about authority - not fasting. If you want to submit to that authority, go for it.

My conscience does not allow me to.

It was the super Trads that pushed for Vactican I Papal Infallibility. I find it interesting that now, that same power they pushed for is trying to stamp out their Latin Mass.