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The church in Rome

Markie Boy

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It's tough.

The Catholic Church gets some things right that some protestants don't even think about much. Once Saved Always Saved is so un-Scriptural, and not helpful. Faith Alone may be true in a sense, but it's hardly the best way to describe what the Christian life should look like. And why would we be told to strive or not fall away - those are doing things, not Faith Alone.

But Catholicism added some things that just can't be harmonized with Scripture or History. Indulgences for sure. The Marian dogmas that must be assented to for salvation - don't show up any place in Scripture or the first couple centuries of church history. Papal Supremacy - refuted by Matthew 20:25-27, and the whole Eastern Church. I don't think one can honestly make the case that the Pope is a humble servant leader, if one reads much history - or today's news.

Ah but sin. Catholics persecuted protestants violently. Wait - protestants persecuted Catholics. Wait - protestants persecuted each other.

Sadly - all of the above is true.

The Kingdom does not belong to one denomination - those without love are not His disciples. There are disciples and non-believers in each denomination.
 
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tampasteve

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Except that the canon of Scripture itself is a matter of tradition. And Protestants for the most part follow their own traditions based on the teachings of whoever founded them.
I don't really disagree, my point is that the "traditions" protestants develop are based nearly entirely on their interpretation of scripture, not on an outside or non-biblical source. So churches like the EO and RCC can base their teachings on Scripture and Tradition, using Tradition to bolster arguments for certain practices that may not be outright biblical. That is kind of the point of Tradition compared to tradition based practices. Tradition tends to lend to doctrine and dogma, where tradition does not.

As for scripture, I of course agree that it is Tradition that gave us the broad cannon, and then further inspection and tradition from the Reformers narrowed it to the 66 books of the Protestant cannon. I don't think there can really be a disagreement on that, it is more or less solid history.

Right. They got them from whatever Leader they chose to align with, and then, and then modified them as seemed expedient ever since.
That is a rather derisive way to put it, which ignores a lot of particularly important nuances and reasons for the "modifications".
Which denomination?
My request to the other member was to "outline a doctrine that you see developed within a denomination" then we could take a closer look.
 
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chevyontheriver

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My request to the other member was to "outline a doctrine that you see developed within a denomination" then we could take a closer look.
How about the doctrine of 'total apostasy' that drives the SDA and LDS and many other groups? This doctrine shapes historical understanding when everything has to fit the doctrine.
 
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tampasteve

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How about the doctrine of 'total apostasy' that drives the SDA and LDS and many other groups? This doctrine shapes historical understanding when everything has to fit the doctrine.
Well, let's leave out the LDS, they are not Christian by our definition and hold a LOT of beliefs that are not biblical due to the continued revelation and prophets.

I believe that the SDA teaching is that the idea of "Total apostasy" is not really total, more accurately they believe that there was always some sort of remnant that kept the true faith. Yes the idea completely colors the historical understanding of the rest of Christianity, but they see it as being based on scripture such as Rev 12:6 and 14 when the "woman flees into the wilderness", the true church being in the wilderness. FWIW I don't agree with that teaching at all.
 
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prodromos

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Really? You don’t think there are millions of people faithfully keeping God’s 4th commandment, His holy Sabbath day. Exo 20:8-11 Isa 58:13 I certainly can prove my statement, can you? If I do, does your statement apply to you as well?
You said millions were killed by the Church in Rome. That is an utter falsehood which you happily repeat.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Well, let's leave out the LDS, they are not Christian by our definition and hold a LOT of beliefs that are not biblical due to the continued revelation and prophets.
OK. But it is awfully similar.
I believe that the SDA teaching is that the idea of "Total apostasy" is not really total, more accurately they believe that there was always some sort of remnant that kept the true faith. Yes the idea completely colors the historical understanding of the rest of Christianity, but they see it as being based on scripture such as Rev 12:6 and 14 when the "woman flees into the wilderness", the true church being in the wilderness. FWIW I don't agree with that teaching at all.
The 'remnant' idea posits that some really strange groups were the maintainers of the Christian faith, groups such as the Cathari, Nevermind how strange they were if that is the way to trace their remnant. It makes for some interesting historical re-write. A whole different set of 'facts'.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You said millions were killed by the Church in Rome. That is an utter falsehood which you happily repeat.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referring to.

It's not secret about the millions of Christians being murdered, its well documented, but believe what you wish.
 
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tampasteve

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OK. But it is awfully similar.

The 'remnant' idea posits that some really strange groups were the maintainers of the Christian faith, groups such as the Cathari, Nevermind how strange they were if that is the way to trace their remnant. It makes for some interesting historical re-write. A whole different set of 'facts'.
I can't disagree at all. :)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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OK. But it is awfully similar.
Only if one is not familiar with the teachings. The SDA church follows the scripture as it is the method that everything must be tested by. We believe the bible the way it reads while some things are symbolic even that will interpret itself through scripture, and your church has even admitted we follow scripture, instead of being guided by tradition.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Only if one is not familiar with the teachings.
Same theme. The Church went off the rails soon after the last of the Apostles died out. The LDS version with Joseph Smith discovering gold plates written in reformed Egyptian is a bit more extreme but he and Ellen Gould White both are regarded as writing inspired material about how the Catholic Church went off the rails. So you are beholden to a particular 19th century prophetess more than anything.
The SDA church follows the scripture as it is the method that everything must be tested by.
Would that you did.
We believe the bible the way it reads,
The way it was read by a particular 19th century woman. That's why you guys disagree with so many other groups that also say they follow the Scripture as it is. The method is broken or you would all agree.
... and your church has even admitted we follow the scripture, instead of being guided by tradition.
I think here you are referencing some really old quotes by some Catholics about your sabbath keeping thing again. As if that proves the SDA are correct about that or anything else. Jesus rose sometime after sundown after the end of the seventh day. Which was the eighth day. You can blow that off if you need to.
 
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prodromos

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Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referring to.

It's not secret about the millions of Christians being murdered, its well documented, but believe what you wish.
It is an oft repeated lie. If it was well documented you would be able to present such documentation.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Same theme. The Church went off the rails soon after the last of the Apostles died out. The LDS version with Joseph Smith discovering gold plates written in reformed Egyptian is a bit more extreme but he and Ellen Gould White both are regarded as writing inspired material about how the Catholic Church went off the rails. So you are beholden to a particular 19th century prophetess more than anything.

Would that you did.

The way it was read by a particular 19th century woman. That's why you guys disagree with so many other groups that also say they follow the Scripture as it is. The method is broken or you would all agree.

I think here you are referencing some really old quotes by some Catholics about your sabbath keeping thing again. As if that proves the SDA are correct about that or anything else. Jesus rose sometime after sundown after the end of the seventh day. Which was the eighth day. You can blow that off if you need to.
You can believe what you want about EGW that's fine, but no matter how many times people claim otherwise she did not write or speak the 4th commandment, God did Exo 20:8-11, she just points us back to what God asked us to remember- back to God's Word, which is what a true messenger of God does, when people turn away from His Word 2 Chronicles 36:15-16, . Jesus resting on the Sabbath and rising on the first day is never in debate, just where is the scripture that says in doing that deleted the 4th commandment, or made that God's new holy day, or transferred the Sabbath to the first day or changed anything relating to God's commandments. It didn't change what the apostles did as they kept every Sabbath decades after Christ died, as did His faithful followers who kept the Sabbath after His death according to the commandment Luke 23:56 so the only way to make the first day a holy day instead of a secular day the way God deemed Exo 20:9, is to add that to God's pure Word and follow traditions over the commandments of God- something Jesus condemned. Mat 15:3-9 Mark 7:7-8
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It is an oft repeated lie. If it was well documented you would be able to present such documentation.
References noted.

We see it in the slaughter of the Albigensians which was really the first Roman Catholic crusade intended to slay other Christians. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 29]The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and dictates. Then on the command of pope Innocent III in 1209, Bezirs (today France) was destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims including Catholics refusing to turn over their neighbours and friends were up to 70,000. [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.179-181]

In Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands were slain and in subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232to search and destroy any who did not hold to the what the church dictated.

The Waldensians, and many others were exterminated, in the persecution of the Cathar of Southern Europe, northern Italy, it is estimated one million victims of the . [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.183]

The Spanish Inquisition killed untold numbers and the Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. Of course we cant leave out John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, who was burned at the stake in 1415.

In the 15th century we find the Church lauching a persecution against Hussites, with thousands slain. In 1538 pope Paul III declared a crusade against England who had left its domination and all English made as slaves of Church, but England being a island made that a bit difficult to implement. In the 1568, the Spanish Inquisition tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands and thousands were slain. In1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 28-31]

In the Catholic 17th century 30 years' war against the Protestants, at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.31-32] And its recorded in the Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany, roughly 30,000Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller. [D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992, 191. ]

Now this does not include the persecution and killing of the Jews which the church to say the least did not discourage and worse were instigated by its bishops or led by its priests. By the 4th and 5th centuries we see the beginning of this phase of the persecution as the Jewish synagogues were burned and many Jews slain. We find in the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. We find that as a result of the Council of Toledo 694, Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. 450-453]

When the Crusades began, thousands of Jews were slaughtered all through Europe as they marched to the Holy Land or just got together on their way there. History records the killing of the Jews at Worms, Mainz , Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others. [S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.]

It continued in the Second Crusade in 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru in France). [WW57] and it continued in the Third Crusade as English Jewish communities were attacked and sacked 1189/90. And in 1257-1267 the Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated.

The killing of Jews with the churches knowledge if not outright approval continued through all Europe through the 13 century to what we see all the way to World War II by the Nazis. In Spain, Seville's the Jews were killed with the Archbishop Martinez leading. 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear. [K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. 454]

It was widespread in Poland with whole Jewish communities wiped out and the Jews killed. In the Chmielnitzki massacres of 1648 in Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. And in Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland and in more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive . And all Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France were burned to death. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987. 40-43]

ISIS/ISIL Muslim fanatics have nothing on the persecution of Christians by the Roman Catholic Church.
 
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prodromos

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References noted.

We see it in the slaughter of the Albigensians which was really the first Roman Catholic crusade intended to slay other Christians. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 29]The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and dictates. Then on the command of pope Innocent III in 1209, Bezirs (today France) was destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims including Catholics refusing to turn over their neighbours and friends were up to 70,000. [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.179-181]

In Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands were slain and in subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232to search and destroy any who did not hold to the what the church dictated.

The Waldensians, and many others were exterminated, in the persecution of the Cathar of Southern Europe, northern Italy, it is estimated one million victims of the . [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.183]

The Spanish Inquisition killed untold numbers and the Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. Of course we cant leave out John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, who was burned at the stake in 1415.

In the 15th century we find the Church lauching a persecution against Hussites, with thousands slain. In 1538 pope Paul III declared a crusade against England who had left its domination and all English made as slaves of Church, but England being a island made that a bit difficult to implement. In the 1568, the Spanish Inquisition tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands and thousands were slain. In1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 28-31]

In the Catholic 17th century 30 years' war against the Protestants, at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.31-32] And its recorded in the Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany, roughly 30,000Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller. [D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992, 191. ]

Now this does not include the persecution and killing of the Jews which the church to say the least did not discourage and worse were instigated by its bishops or led by its priests. By the 4th and 5th centuries we see the beginning of this phase of the persecution as the Jewish synagogues were burned and many Jews slain. We find in the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. We find that as a result of the Council of Toledo 694, Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. 450-453]

When the Crusades began, thousands of Jews were slaughtered all through Europe as they marched to the Holy Land or just got together on their way there. History records the killing of the Jews at Worms, Mainz , Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others. [S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.]

It continued in the Second Crusade in 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru in France). [WW57] and it continued in the Third Crusade as English Jewish communities were attacked and sacked 1189/90. And in 1257-1267 the Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated.

The killing of Jews with the churches knowledge if not outright approval continued through all Europe through the 13 century to what we see all the way to World War II by the Nazis. In Spain, Seville's the Jews were killed with the Archbishop Martinez leading. 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear. [K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. 454]

It was widespread in Poland with whole Jewish communities wiped out and the Jews killed. In the Chmielnitzki massacres of 1648 in Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. And in Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland and in more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive . And all Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France were burned to death. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987. 40-43]

ISIS/ISIL Muslim fanatics have nothing on the persecution of Christians by the Roman Catholic Church.
Are you MaryQueen on kunstler.com? You've simply copy/pasted what she posted as a comment on an article about Dr Fauci.

You've given a single mention of an "estimated one million victims of the" from H.Wollschlger, but it is an incomplete quote without any context. What are H.Wollschlger's references? Where does he get that number from?

All your other references total thousands but not millions.
 
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tampasteve

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SabbathBlessings

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tampasteve

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There's lot of sources out there- history has a way of rewriting itself as it was thousands of years ago, but not everyone forgets
True, but not in the exact same sequence and wording, that is someone's original piece, and they deserve the credit.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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True, but not in the exact same sequence and wording, that is someone's original piece, and they deserve the credit.
Agreed. My fellow SDA posted the first one I should have linked it, will do for next time.
 
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