The church in Rome

prodromos

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but if you want to place your trust in the RCC institution we have free will.
Another false assumption on your part. I have a lot of reasons to call into question the narrative you've been posting. Allegiance to Rome is definitely not one of them.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Prove the source is not credible.
We’re relying on you to have done YOUR homework. Putting that link up is your way of saying it’s credible. That is a statement about your own credibility.
Your opinion is not the same as proof. Have you checked every reference and researched every data point?
You posted the link. You should have checked it out before putting it out there. Not just toss it out there and hope it isn’t demolished.
It's a well-known fact about what happened, but if you want to place your trust in the RCC institution we have free will.
Do you stand by the numbers in your linked article? If it is shown to be hogwash what will you do? By the way, it’s already been shown to be hogwash. You can follow the SDA dogmas about the Catholic Church OR you can follow history. You pick.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I really hate to see this thread being hijacked for a SDA agenda. If it isn't sabbath promotion then it is SDA (especially Ellen White) propaganda against Catholicism.
 
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FenderTL5

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If it is sabbath promotion then it is SDA (especially Ellen White) propaganda..
When all one has is a hammer, then everything else is a nail.
No topic is immune to their one and only agenda item. I've placed most of them on ignore becaue there's nothing of value offered.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I really hate to see this thread being hijacked for a SDA agenda. If it is sabbath promotion then it is SDA (especially Ellen White) propaganda against Catholicism.
But the SDA have a whole bevy of anti-Catholic dogmas. I think more than any other denomination would ever want to have. Only one of them being that the Catholics 'changed' the Sabbath. And then the popes killing 50 or whatever million people they say. I suspect they would also maintain Peter never went to Rome, and how Rome never was a patriarchal see, and on and on and on and on. It's all Ellen Gould White.

The SDA DEPENDS on their particular unhistorical view of the history of the Catholic Church. Without the Catholic Church to protest what would they even be?
 
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FenderTL5

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But the SDA have a whole bevy of anti-Catholic dogmas. I think more than any other denomination would ever want to have. Only one of them being that the Catholics 'changed' the Sabbath. And then the popes killing 50 or whatever million people they say. I suspect they would also maintain Peter never went to Rome, and how Rome never was a patriarchal see, and on and on and on and on. It's all Ellen Gould White.

The SDA DEPENDS on their particular unhistorical view of the history of the Catholic Church. Without the Catholic Church to protest what would they even be?
One does not have to be in lock-step agreement with Rome to recognize the significance and history of the Church located there.
It takes an extreme dedication to being willfully ignorant to assert otherwise.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Without the Catholic Church to protest what would they even be?
Bored?

Nevertheless, Rome had a church in the early first century, before saint Paul was writing his letters and doing his missionary journeys. And Rome was the first in honour and authority among the three apostolic sees (Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch). Jerusalem was not a functioning Church after 70 AD and was not counted among the Apostolic sees, and Constantinople did not yet exist - it was a little fishing village called Byzantium - and would not exist for another two hundred years. So, whatever Ellen White may have written and whatever her followers today may believe the truth must always be held as true and the myths of a woman who thought herself a seer/prophet/visionary must be discounted as purely human in origin and wholly unreliable as history.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Bored?

Nevertheless, Rome had a church in the early first century, before saint Paul was writing his letters and doing his missionary journeys. And Rome was the first in honour and authority among the three apostolic sees (Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch). Jerusalem was not a functioning Church after 70 AD and was not counted among the Apostolic sees, and Constantinople did not yet exist - it was a little fishing village called Byzantium - and would not exist for another two hundred years. So, whatever Ellen White may have written and whatever her followers today may believe the truth must always be held as true and the myths of a woman who thought herself a seer/prophet/visionary must be discounted as purely human in origin and wholly unreliable as history.
Ellen Gould White is more a pope to them than any Catholic would treat our popes. They hold that she wrote inspired teaching. Catholics have conceded that popes cannot err in limited ways. They treat her writings on par with Scriptures. Talk about adding to Scripture. And so they are locked into whatever errors she has made, historical errors, doctrinal errors, moral errors, medical errors, attitudinal errors.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I was curious about the actual population number in Europe:

"Between 1500 and 1750 the European population doubled from about 65 million to around 127.5 million."
And yet the popes killed how many Europeans in that exact time frame? How do you double the population when killing off almost the entire population? I don't get the math.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Ellen Gould White is more a pope to them than any Catholic would treat our popes. They hold that she wrote inspired teaching. Catholics have conceded that popes cannot err in limited ways. They treat her writings on par with Scriptures. Talk about adding to Scripture. And so they are locked into whatever errors she has made, historical errors, doctrinal errors, moral errors, medical errors, attitudinal errors.
When Australia was entranced by the story of the Chamberland baby taken by a dingo, and the trial of her mother and father, I visited a SDA church weekly on Saturdays for about 11 or 12 weeks. A family that I knew, from encountering the wife at a bookshop, invited me to share their sabbath (Saturday) lunch and company in the afternoons on those Saturdays. In the many discussions we had, which were often about doctrine and practises the wife said, "I wonder why we don't just bind Ellen Whites works with the bible as one book because we know she was inspired." So, that gives some insight into how SDA people in the 1980s thought about Ellen Whit's books.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Nevertheless the Church in Rome dates back to apostolic times which cannot be said of many modern denominations.
Denominations are human manufactured divisions. The church in Corinth fell into that trap. The Church in Rome is no more the true church than the church of Ephesus, Philadelphia or any other church. There is the local church, all Christians who live in a district, and the universal church, all who are born again. That is the only distinction that God makes. Everything else is man made.
 
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chevyontheriver

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In the many discussions we had, which were often about doctrine and practises the wife said, "I wonder why we don't just bind Ellen Whites works with the bible as one book because we know she was inspired." So, that gives some insight into how SDA people in the 1980s thought about Ellen Whit's books.
Wow!

But that is how they hold her writings. I would be happy to hear from any SDA members how the writings of Ellen Gould White are NOT treated as inspired.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I thought you guys didn't want this to become an SDA thread...
Agreed, we do not. My comments are more about the ahistorical attacks on the papacy and the Catholic Church that Ellen White's books contain than about SDA doctrine, so to mention the errors one must mention the source. And the truth is that the church in Rome is genuinely a first century AD church and not some invention of the late Emperor Constantine.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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There is the local church, all Christians who live in a district, and the universal church, all who are born again.
One cannot agree with this; there are, as you say, local churches, and there is in truth a church of the first born, but there is no earthly church of "all who are born again", as you said.

The church of the first born is in heaven, it is no earthly gathering.
For you are not come to a mountain that might be touched and a burning fire and a whirlwind and darkness and storm, And the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, which they that had excused themselves, that the word might not be spoken to them. For they did not endure that which was said: and if so much as a beast shall touch the mount, it shall be stoned. And so terrible was that which was seen, Moses said: I am frighted, and tremble. But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel. See that you refuse him not that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spoke upon earth, much more shall not we that turn away from him that speaketh to us from heaven. Whose voice then moved the earth; but now he promiseth, saying: Yet once more: and I will move, not only the earth, but heaven also. And in that he saith: Yet once more, he signifieth the translation of the moveable things as made, that those things may remain which are immoveable. Therefore, receiving an immoveable kingdom, we have grace: whereby let us serve, pleasing God, with fear and reverence. For our God is a consuming fire.​
(Hebrews 12:18-29 DRB)
 
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BNR32FAN

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I have seen once reliable sources re-write history, like I said if you want to place your faith in Rome, your choice. I have seen errors in Britanica as they are written by man. The only fully reliable source is God's Word and I do not place my faith in the church who openly claims they were the ones to change times and laws and admits not on the authority of scripture.
There is no verse from God’s word that says Rome killed millions of people. And I’m not a supporter of Roman theology, I’ve made that abundantly clear in this thread several times. Yeah the atrocities committed by Rome during the inquisitions were no doubt inexcusable but they weren’t killing millions of people. Even tho I don’t support Roman theology I’m not about to start spreading false accusations against them because of my disagreement with their theology and what the church did hundreds of years ago under a completely different leadership doesn’t reflect who they are today. They’ve long since repented from those sins and the people who committed them are long dead. The church made several mistakes even during the time of the apostles and that is recorded in the scriptures over and over. Nevertheless they were still the church of God whom Jesus called to repentance in Revelation 2 & 3 even despite their shortcomings. Furthermore you can’t attribute the sins of Rome to the Catholic Church as a whole because ONLY Rome participated in those sins 130 years after their excommunication from the rest of the Catholic Church. The rest of the Catholic Church never participated in those actions nor did they condone them nor did they ever do anything remotely similar to the inquisitions. So you can’t sit there and accuse the entire Catholic Church for being guilty of those events when they had no affiliation with Rome during that time and they had nothing to do with what Rome was doing. The facts are the apostolic Church of God adopt the name Catholic some time during the second century and your church didn’t exist. Your church was founded by Ellen White in 1863 just like the SDA official website specifically states, it is not an apostolic church.

Her devout involvement with this group of Christians helped lead to the official founding of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in 1863.


Your church is not the product of a “remnant church” that has existed since the apostolic times otherwise they couldn’t claim Ellen White as the founder of the church. You can choose to ignore these facts but you will never arrive at the truth by ignoring the facts. Your contempt for the Catholic Church is misplaced and is either the result of ignorance of church history or unwillingness to accept the facts.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I was curious about the actual population number in Europe:

"Between 1500 and 1750 the European population doubled from about 65 million to around 127.5 million."
Yeah I did some math as well and the church would’ve had to execute 72,886 people per year in order to kill 50 million during the entire 686 years of the inquisitions. That’s 200 people per day, every day for 686 years which is beyond ridiculous and completely unbelievable by anyone with any sort of rational sense of reasoning. It’s astronomically obvious that it’s an enormous fabrication. There wouldn’t be a tree left standing in all of Europe if they were burning that many bodies everyday.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There were indeed executions in those time for many many crimes, including heresy. The inquisitions established a formal process to benefit defendants, for example, adopting St. Paul's statement about requiring multiple witnesses. To get a handle on the numbers, the most well known Grand Inquisitor of the Medieval Inquisition, over a period of 17 years, was in charge of 920 cases of heresy. 42, or about 5 percent of his cases, ended up with executions. In the Spanish Inquisition the famous grand inquisitor Torquemada had 1 percent of his cases end in execution.
Yeah and the Spanish Inquisitions were the worst part of all the inquisitions which lasted for 356 years resulting in roughly 4,000 executions which is 11 people per year. Not even anywhere close to 72,000 per year.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Another false assumption on your part. I have a lot of reasons to call into question the narrative you've been posting. Allegiance to Rome is definitely not one of them.
I agree, I may not agree with Rome’s theology but I’m not about to start making wild accusations about them based on things that happened hundreds of years ago by people who are long dead when the church hasn’t engaged in such activities for hundreds of years now. As it stands now they are still our brethren in Christ even despite our theological differences and not a single one of them can be held accountable for what happened back then. The only reason I ever see a need to bring up the inquisitions is to provide evidence as to the mind set and disposition of the leadership of the church during that time in discussions on matters pertaining to apostolic succession, papal infallibility, and doctrines formulated during that time. Other than that I see no need to even mention it.
 
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