The church in Rome

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,040
1,332
Perth
✟113,560.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Some entertain the idea that the Catholic Church centred in Rome arose in the 4th century or later, but I think that the New Testament testified to a much earlier start. Saint Paul wrote a letter To The Romans which is the longest of his letters to the churches of his time.

It is thought by many scholars that saint Paul wrote to the Romans sometime around the time he was in Corinth on one of his missionary journeys. That places it around the middle 50s AD. And, of course, saint Paul would not be writing to Rome's Christians if they were not already a church with a reputation, which he mentions in chapter one of his letter. So, the best guess for the establishment of the church in Rome would be shortly after the sermon in Acts chapter two. Or around the mid or later 30s AD.

Saint Paul wrote, "And first, I offer thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, you whose faith is so renowned throughout the world." Romans 1:8.

So, having set the record straight, we can move on from theories that claim that the Church of/in Rome was created centuries after Christ's earthly sojourn.
 

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
9,935
4,211
USA
✟462,153.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Some entertain the idea that the Catholic Church centred in Rome arose in the 4th century or later, but I think that the New Testament testified to a much earlier start. Saint Paul wrote a letter To The Romans which is the longest of his letters to the churches of his time.

It is thought by many scholars that saint Paul wrote to the Romans sometime around the time he was in Corinth on one of his missionary journeys. That places it around the middle 50s AD. And, of course, saint Paul would not be writing to Rome's Christians if they were not already a church with a reputation, which he mentions in chapter one of his letter. So, the best guess for the establishment of the church in Rome would be shortly after the sermon in Acts chapter two. Or around the mid or later 30s AD.

Saint Paul wrote, "And first, I offer thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, you whose faith is so renowned throughout the world." Romans 1:8.

So, having set the record straight, we can move on from theories that claim that the Church of/in Rome was created centuries after Christ's earthly sojourn.
The apostles were setting up churches everywhere, that's what they were commissioned to do and to observe everything God commanded. There is no scripture that connects Paul to being catholic or any of the apostles. I see a lot of variances between the teachings of the catholic church and what the apostles taught and observed.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,040
1,332
Perth
✟113,560.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The apostles were setting up churches everywhere, that's what they were commissioned to do and to observe everything God commanded. There is no scripture that connects Paul to being catholic or any of the apostles. I see a lot of variances between the teachings of the catholic church and what the apostles taught and observed.
Nevertheless the Church in Rome dates back to apostolic times which cannot be said of many modern denominations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
4,338
5,021
New Jersey
✟332,464.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Nevertheless the Church in Rome dates back to apostolic times which cannot be said of many modern denominations.

It is true that Christianity reached the area around the Mediterranean before it reached other parts of the globe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,405
8,893
Florida
✟318,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The apostles were setting up churches everywhere, that's what they were commissioned to do and to observe everything God commanded. There is no scripture that connects Paul to being catholic or any of the apostles. I see a lot of variances between the teachings of the catholic church and what the apostles taught and observed.

The book of Romans was written to the Church in Rome. That Church is still there. The Pope is the Patriarch of Rome and is the successor to the Apostles of Rome.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
9,935
4,211
USA
✟462,153.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The book of Romans was written to the Church in Rome. That Church is still there. The Pope is the Patriarch of Rome and is the successor to the Apostles of Rome.
The gospel was to be spread everywhere. There is no scripture that says the Pope is the successor to the apostles. Nothing about the apostles being Catholic. I noticed you didn't quote scripture to make this case either, which is what we should be following.
 
  • Like
Reactions: I's2C
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,040
1,332
Perth
✟113,560.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The gospel was to be spread everywhere. There is no scripture that says the Pope is the successor to the apostles. Nothing about the apostles being Catholic. I noticed you didn't quote scripture to make this case either, which is what we should be following.
Why do you worry about scripture not saying "Catholic" or not mentioning that Linus succeeded Peter as Pope in Rome?
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
9,935
4,211
USA
✟462,153.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Why do you worry about scripture not saying "Catholic" or not mentioning that Linus succeeded Peter as Pope in Rome?
I'm not worried about it at all because I do not buy into it, which is why I suggest we follow God's Word as our path, which is what scripture tells us to do Psa 119:105
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,040
1,332
Perth
✟113,560.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I'm not worried about it at all because I do not buy into it, which is why I suggest we follow God's Word as our path Psa 119:105
The psalms are lovely, but I do not expect to grasp apostolic succession from reading them.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
9,935
4,211
USA
✟462,153.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The psalms are lovely, but I do not expect to grasp apostolic succession from reading them.
Thats your choice. My choice is to follow God's Word, which is to be the light to our path Psa 119:105 and not to deviate which equals to danger Isa 8:20
 
  • Like
Reactions: I's2C
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,405
8,893
Florida
✟318,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The gospel was to be spread everywhere. There is no scripture that says the Pope is the successor to the apostles. Nothing about the apostles being Catholic. I noticed you didn't quote scripture to make this case either, which is what we should be following.

Well. Let's examine this. I have you, two thousand years after the fact, claiming that a thing doesn't exist. But then I have Clement, who lived at the time of the Apostles, claiming that the Apostles chose their successors. And all of the Apostolic Churches have maintained and hold to Apostolic succession. I'm going to go with the odds here and say yes, Apostolic succession exists.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
9,935
4,211
USA
✟462,153.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well. Let's examine this. I have you, two thousand years after the fact, claiming that a thing doesn't exist. But then I have Clement, who lived at the time of the Apostles, claiming that the Apostles chose their successors. And all of the Apostolic Churches have maintained and hold to Apostolic succession. I'm going to go with the odds here and say yes, Apostolic succession exists.
We were told by Paul would happen to the church after his death Acts 20:29 and we see history playing this prediction out. God's church prevails, but its just a remnant Rev 12:17 KJV and the characteristics of God's church are spelled out in scripture Rev 14:12 based on what Jesus taught and His example we are to follow 1 John 2:6

Guess we will have to agree to disagree and everything will get sorted out soon enough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Semper-Fi
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,405
8,893
Florida
✟318,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
We were told by Paul would happen to the church after his death Acts 20:29 and we see history playing this prediction out. God's church prevails, but its just a remnant Rev 12:17 KJV and the characteristics of God's church are spelled out in scripture Rev 14:12 based on what Jesus taught and His example we are to follow 1 John 2:6

Guess we will have to agree to disagree and everything will get sorted out soon enough.

There is nothing anywhere saying that the Church would die out and need to be somehow revived thousands of years after the fact. There would be no one to revive it. Yet there are thousands who have claimed to have done just that. It makes salvation a matter of playing the lottery to guess which one is right. But Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church. And those Churches named in the new testament, founded by the Apostles, still exist. No one came along with some new idea or some senseless new interpretation of some bible verse to create them.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

mikeforjesus

Senior Member
Supporter
Nov 14, 2004
3,793
270
37
✟563,291.00
Faith
Christian
There is nothing anywhere saying that the Church would die out and need to be somehow revived thousands of years after the fact. There would be no one to revive it. Yet there are thousands who have claimed to have done just that. It makes salvation a matter of playing the lottery to guess which one is right. But Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church. And those Churches named in the new testament, founded by the Apostles, still exist. No one came along with some new idea or some senseless new interpretation of some bible verse to create them.

Yet if church Jesus was talking about was Orthodox Church then they would never fail to be teaching truth but much of them spoke heresy and times they are not speaking the truth but false so people have followed wrong way and there are times no one has been teaching truth who are available for those who are seeking to even know right way. For Jesus said He would build church on faith in Him and that is what He taught as He said he who builds his house on the rock will stand. Church adds tradition to say at times to not welcome heretics using St John letter to heretics but he meant to greet as though to approve of their way as acceptable to share in their sin and many other similar things and so have not loved their enemy and renaming that way not repenting have been condemned.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
9,935
4,211
USA
✟462,153.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
There is nothing anywhere saying that the Church would die out and need to be somehow revived thousands of years after the fact.
No one said die out, a remnant- which means a small remainder of the original, which keep God's commandments.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The church you are referring to are the one we are warned about in scripture.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws

Here is the prediction come true quoted directly from the Catholic Church. The Sabbath is the only law that is both a law (4th commandment) and time (every Sabbath) and came true just like the scripture predicted.

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174


There would be no one to revive it.
God would never desert His people - He will be with us until the end of time. God has people in all churches. He does ask us to come out of Babylon- our false teachings Rev 18:4 as we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24
Yet there are thousands who have claimed to have done just that. It makes salvation a matter of playing the lottery to guess which one is right.
Not really, God's Word is to be the lamp to our feet, no lottery needed, just faith and following His Word. Not following the crowd or the traditions of man. Something Jesus warned us about as well quoting right from the Ten Mat 15:3-9 Mark 7:7-8

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
The path is narrow, not wide and many choose to deviate from His Word because not everyone wants to come to the light and the Truth of His Word.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
But Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church.
And they won't!
And those Churches named in the new testament, founded by the Apostles, still exist. No one came along with some new idea or some senseless new interpretation of some bible verse to create them.
Agreed. God's saints are those who keep the commandments of God (His version) and the faith in Jesus.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Jesus commissioned the apostles to observe everything He commanded, which is why they taught what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 as it is what Jesus taught and observed and He is our example. 1 John 2:6
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
2,410
253
87
Arcadia
✟190,953.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nevertheless the Church in Rome dates back to apostolic times which cannot be said of many modern denominations.
And here is what the Apostle Paul says in Eph 1:4 !!

#1 He HATH N CHOSEN // EKLEGOMIA is in the Greek ARIST TENSE , MIDDLE VOICE , in the INDICATIVE MOOD and in the SINULAR and that means He chosen all at one time .

#2 US // HEMAS is a PERSONAL POSSISESSIVE PRONOUN , ACCUSATIVE CASE , in the PLURAL

#3 HIMSELF // AUTOS , also a PERSONAL , POSSESSIVE PRONOUN , in the DATIVE CASE , in the SINGLUAR means he chose for Himself ONLY ONE TIME FOR HIMSELF

#4 And we were CHOSEN before THE FOUNDATION // KOSMOS in the GENITIVE CASE and in the SINGULAR an means that He chose only ONCE .

#5 OF THE WORLD // KOSMOS in the GENITIVE CASE , also in the SINULAR

#6 It says CHOSEN ( BEFORE // PRO ) the over throw of the WORLD .

dan p
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Angels Team
Feb 10, 2013
13,761
7,765
28
Nebraska
✟230,538.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
The book of Romans was written to the Church in Rome. That Church is still there. The Pope is the Patriarch of Rome and is the successor to the Apostles of Rome.
Amen.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Angels Team
Feb 10, 2013
13,761
7,765
28
Nebraska
✟230,538.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
The apostles were setting up churches everywhere, that's what they were commissioned to do and to observe everything God commanded. There is no scripture that connects Paul to being catholic or any of the apostles. I see a lot of variances between the teachings of the catholic church and what the apostles taught and observed.
They were called followers of the Way and later called Christians. The first term the "Catholic Church" was used was around 107 AD by St. Ignatius of Antioch, martyr.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
9,935
4,211
USA
✟462,153.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
They were called followers of the Way and later called Christians. The first term the "Catholic Church" was used was around 107 AD by St. Ignatius of Antioch, martyr.
Like I said, I prefer to stick with the scriptures! I have seen history be re-written too many times, which is why we are told to follow God's Word, this is where we can place our trust.
 
  • Like
Reactions: I's2C
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,405
8,893
Florida
✟318,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
No one said die out, a remnant- which means a small remainder of the original, which keep God's commandments.


The church you are referring to are the one we are warned about in scripture.



Here is the prediction come true quoted directly from the Catholic Church. The Sabbath is the only law that is both a law (4th commandment) and time (every Sabbath) and came true just like the scripture predicted.

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174



God would never desert His people - He will be with us until the end of time. God has people in all churches. He does ask us to come out of Babylon- our false teachings Rev 18:4 as we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24

Not really, God's Word is to be the lamp to our feet, not lottery needed, just faith and following His Word. Not following the crowd or the traditions of man. Something Jesus warned us about as well quoting right from the Ten Mat 15:3-9 Mark 7:7-8


The path is narrow, not wide and many choose to deviate from His Word because not everyone wants to come to the light and the Truth of His Word.


And they won't!

Agreed. God's saints are those who keep the commandments of God (His version) and the faith in Jesus.


Jesus commissioned the apostles to observe everything He commanded, which is why they taught what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 as it is what Jesus taught and observed and He is our example. 1 John 2:6
just faith and following His Word

So of the thousands of different splits, splinters, and groups out there claiming to follow his word which one is right?
 
Upvote 0