Establish The Law

[Leaf473]

The letter is the law.
So you are asking if we are to keep the law.

In the NT, "he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." (Ro 13:8).
"the commandments. . .are summed up in one rule" (Ro 13:9)
"love is the fulfillment of the law" (Ro 13:10).
"All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments (Mt 22:40), love God and love of neighbor as self (Mt 22: 37-39).

Is that a Yes, we are to keep the law?

Or a No, we are not to keep the law, because it is fulfilled?

 

[Clare73]

Is that a Yes, we are to keep the law?

Or a No, we are not to keep the law, because it is fulfilled?

Yes and no.

We fulfill (completely keep) the law by loving God and neighbor as self (Mt 22:37-40, Ro 13:8-10).
Love is of the heart and doesn't need rules to tell it how to love.

 

[Leaf473]

Why is the most necessary and obvious missed ?

I think it's because people become afraid sometimes of the idea of living without a hard and fast set of rules.

Yes we are to obey Jesus, Jesus Who Never Once Broke Torah, because it is fulfilled !

Absolutely! Keeping in mind that Jesus lived under the old Covenant.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 8:4 - New American Standard Bible

And Jesus *said to him, “See that you tell no one; but go, show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”

www.biblegateway.com

The twisting and turning of "fulfilled" into some non-sensical idea that it means it is okay now to kiill, to steal and to destroy is so terribly mixed up ! By the one who comes only to kill, to steal, and to destroy....

We agree there But I think it's clear that lepers don't have to wear torn clothes.

 

[Cribstyl]

If one would ponder this statement just for a moment, should come to the conculsion they have a misunderstanding what Paul is trying to teach.

Take example, the very first commandment....

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. So using this logic the letter of the Ten Commandments kills, then we should do the opposite, we should worship other gods, vain God's holy name, murder, covet, commit adultery, it this what Paul is teaching? Absolutely not.

The Ten Commandments is what points out sin when broken. 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20. The Ten Commandments is like a mirror, so we can see our sins, without it, we bury our sins and cannot prosper Pro 28:13 because we do not see our need for Jesus to confess and repent and help us overcome, which is what our salvation is from Mat 1:21 Mat 4:17

Paul says the commandments are holy and just Romans 7:12

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 this is what kills, not the commandments that are holy, just and righteous Psa 119:172

We are to keep the spirit of the law and Jesus teaches us about this right from the Ten Commandments, teaching us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. Mat 5:19-30 What Jesus wants is our hearts changed, which is the New Covenant, the law in our hearts, and if we rid ourselves of thoughts of anger and contempt towards our neighbor, thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept. Jesus is not teaching we can break the letter of the law, He is magnifying what it means to keep the law and if one is keeping the spirit of the law, which is greater than the letter, the letter of every one of the Ten Commandments would be automatically kept. If we are truly walking in His Spirit, we would not be hostile to God's law. Romans 8:1-8. If one is, would be a good time to examine ourselves, to see if one is in the faith, because without faith, we cannot please God Hebrews 11:6 and those with faith uphold God's law Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 because we love Jesus and want to do what He ask of us. 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6

Under the new covenant we're commanded to love, love fulfills the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Under the new covenant we're commanded to love, love fulfills the law.

Love to God is more than just a feeling and love does not go undefined in scripture. 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, John 15:10 Exo 20:6

 

[sparow]

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Establish-[G2476] histemi=set, stand, make stand, establish

Romans 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 10:
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Ephesians 6:
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand.

I am surprised that you use Paul (who is difficult to understand) as an authority when you could use the Word of God, who established the Law. and Jesus who in Matthew 5:18 who said the Law stays in tact until the heavens and the earth pass away.

 

[sparow]

Love is more than just a feeling and love does not go undefined in scripture. 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, John 15:10 Exo 20:6

With words there is what the word means, then there is what the user of the word means. In scripture the word meanings are reasonably concise, not so in English. When one sees another one loving his Neighbour as himself, the observer might wonder what kind of relationship the first one has with himself.

 

[Leaf473]

Good definitions make for good discussions.

For those who believe that love is defined as keeping certain commandments, it would be helpful to the discussion if they would say which commandments... especially the gray areas

 

[Leaf473]

Goes back to asking and talking with Jesus (sometimes called prayer).

Definitely! And then, if we wish, we can come here and talk about what we believe Jesus has told us

 

[daq]

Good definitions make for good discussions.

For those who believe that love is defined as keeping certain commandments, it would be helpful to the discussion if they would say which commandments... especially the gray areas

You can ask until you are blue in the face but will not get definitive answer and certainly not a list from those who divide the Torah into the Ten and the so-called "ceremonial commandments", (and I suspect you have already well learned that to be true). The Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), so there is no such division.

For example:

Deuteronomy 25:4 KJV
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Is this a so-called ceremonial commandment?
And if not then is it still applicable to all believers?
Does Paul teach anything from this commandment? (uh, yes, he does, lol).

 

[Gary K]

You can ask until you are blue in the face but will not get definitive answer and certainly not a list from those who divide the Torah into the Ten and the so-called "ceremonial commandments", (and I suspect you have already well learned that to be true). The Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), so there is no such division.

For example:

Deuteronomy 25:4 KJV
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Is this a so-called ceremonial commandment?
And if not then is it still applicable to all believers?
Does Paul teach anything from this commandment? (uh, yes, he does, lol).

No. Here's another definition for you. It's an object lesson such as the law to not wear clothing from mixed cloth such as wool and linen. It teaches that we are not to have divided hearts that are partly devoted to God and partly devoted to the world, or in other words, the devil.

The law you listed teaches us not to cheat the workman out of his wages. Paul uses it to teach that the minister deserves a living wage.

 

[Cribstyl]

I am surprised that you use Paul (who is difficult to understand) as an authority when you could use the Word of God, who established the Law. and Jesus who in Matthew 5:18 who said the Law stays in tact until the heavens and the earth pass away.

Whoever said that Paul was difficult to understand might be trying to ignore the truth and create their own doctrines. Paul wrote all the doctrines of Christianity that Gentiles should hold.
Who did Christ appear to and sent to teach the Gospel? Why did the Jerusalem council conclude that Paul should go teach the Gentiles and they would go teach the Jews?

 

[Cribstyl]

Love to God is more than just a feeling and love does not go undefined in scripture. 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, John 15:10 Exo 20:6

Clue: Those are not definitions. Your objective is clear. Context matters.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Clue: Those are not definitions. Your objective is clear. Context matters.

It's a textbook definition.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

Context does matter, especially when the Author is Jesus Himself John 14:15 Exo 20:6

 

[daq]

No. Here's another definition for you. It's an object lesson such as the law to not wear clothing from mixed cloth such as wool and linen. It teaches that we are not to have divided hearts that are partly devoted to God and partly devoted to the world, or in other words, the devil.

The law you listed teaches us not to cheat the workman out of his wages. Paul uses it to teach that the minister deserves a living wage.

True, but Paul teaches that it means a lot more than just those things

1 Corinthians 9:8-11 KJV
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

This therefore is one of the spiritual understandings of the Torah which Paul intends when he says that the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a). But how does he come to this understanding? It is Logos-logic, (logikos from logos), from right there in the Torah passage and it is also taught in the Prophets who also expound the Torah, (though not as fully as the Meshiah does).

When you look at the passage and context surrounding the commandment the statement Paul quotes should immediately stick out like a sore thumb, why? because everything around this statement is speaking about men and-or brethren: why therefore does Mosheh suddenly insert a seemingly unrelated command concerning oxen?

Deuteronomy 25:1-5 KJV
1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

What is the Torah saying? Just what Yeshayah the Prophet, (Isaiah 66:3a), and Paul also say: the Torah is probably quite often speaking of men where you read of an ox or oxen, (in the KJV, that is, the rendering for the word showr, a bullock, but can also sometimes be a song, shiyr/shuwr). Now therefore one may see that the Master teaches the same also, and even his betrayal is foretold in the Torah by way of this precept in Exodus 21:32, and also the Prophet Zechariah 11:12-13. Paul therefore has revealed a critical tool in understanding how to actually read and understand the Torah, and "spiritual" therefore does not mean making up our own stuff that we think sounds good or spiritual, but rather there are invaluable interpretive tools supplied in the Testimony of the Master and in the writings of Paul. They are not easy to learn or find but they are there: and the one who sees and understands them learns the truth, and it is the one who truly seeks to do the will of the Father who will know-understand the doctrine, (John 7:15-17).

 

[Cribstyl]

It's a textbook definition.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

Context does matter, especially when the Author is Jesus Himself John 14:15 Exo 20:6

1John should be the context to understand what John is claiming are Jesus' commandments in 1John 5:3. True or False?

1Jo 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 4:21
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Let you tell it, it is the ten commandments. But if you read and not trust commentary, you can know the truth.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1John should be the context to understand what John is claiming are Jesus' commandments in 1John 5:3. True or False?

1Jo 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 4:21
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Let you tell it, it is the ten commandments. But if you read and not trust commentary, you can know the truth.

1 John 5:3 is plural commandments -you quoted singular, so its not a direct reference. If we believe Him, we would do what He asks, Jesus quotes from the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Mat 15:3-9 so no need to guess what those are. Take care.

 

[Cribstyl]

1 John 5:3 is plural commandments -you quoted singular, so its not a direct reference, although we can’t believe Him and not do what He asks, thats not the belief God is looking for. Jesus quotes from the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Mat 15:3-9 so no need to guess what those are. Take care.

1) Believe in Jesus, 2) Love you neighbor. Two mints in one (lol)
1Jo 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Good night

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1) Believe in Jesus, 2) Love you neighbor. Two mints in one (lol)
1Jo 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Good night

You're not looking at the context of 1 John 5:2-3- love to God and neighbor is keeping the commandments of God.

 

[Leaf473]

You can ask until you are blue in the face but will not get definitive answer and certainly not a list from those who divide the Torah into the Ten and the so-called "ceremonial commandments", (and I suspect you have already well learned that to be true). The Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), so there is no such division.

For example:

Deuteronomy 25:4 KJV
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Is this a so-called ceremonial commandment?
And if not then is it still applicable to all believers?
Does Paul teach anything from this commandment? (uh, yes, he does, lol).

It's obvious to me that there is no reasonable, scriptural way to divide up the law into today and yesterday. If there were, it would be all over the internet.

I keep posting those kinds of questions because as people grow in Christ, there will be some who are open to what reason and the scriptures say about dividing up the law.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 4:2 - New American Standard Bible

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I am commanding you.

www.biblegateway.com