Establish The Law

[Cribstyl]

There are two laws spoken of in Romans 3 i.e. verse 27, one law it requires "works" and one requires "Faith", these were of the two covenants.

So, what Paul is saying that the Law that requires "works" is uphold by the Law that requires "Faith".

Well said, Paul is teaching about two covenants.

By isolating Rom 3:31 from a vital Christian doctrine, the opposite of what Paul is teaching can be adopted.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith​

Rom 3:21¶But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
(Paul is teaching that the OT (law and the Prophets) prophesied of a new covenant, unlike the one given to Moses (THE LAW)

Rom 3:22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(Everyone will be judged about their sins)
Rom 3:24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
( Faith is all about the one who believes and accepts the blood of Jesus to cleans their sins
Rom 3:27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
(Noone can brag and say I kept the law)
Rom 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
( Paul reinforces verse 21 that faith has nothing to do with the law)

Rom 3:29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Rom 3:30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
(in context, verse 31 is saying that: living by faith is not breaking God's commandments)

 

[Studyman]

There are two laws spoken of in Romans 3 i.e. verse 27, one law it requires "works" and one requires "Faith", these were of the two covenants.

So, what Paul is saying that the Law that requires "works" is uphold by the Law that requires "Faith".

Yes. How wonderful that you have seen this in Romans 3. "Two Laws". Two Covenants.

Now what was the topic about in Romans 3? In part, that all men have sinned are in need of Salvation from God, Yes? "All have sinned". All have broken God's Commandments. All are equally guilty.

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

So how was a man's Sins forgiven in the Law and Prophets, (Old Covenant) before the Christ Came, that is different now? How were common men justified of their sins (Transgression of God's Commandments) in Moses' time? This is an easy question to answer by just hearing Moses.

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

THIS is the "LAW of Works" the Pharisees were still promoting for the remission of Sins. Paul is telling them that no flesh is Justified by this "Law of Works". That a man who is serving God in repentance and Love, who through ignorance transgresses a Commandment of God "while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; no longer goes to the Levite Priests for forgiveness, but to the Jesus of the Bible, "For the Remission of Sins".

The deceiver promotes that Paul is saying that these Pharisees, who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them, who persecuted and murdered members of God's Church, were trying to get people to OBEY God's Commandments, for the remission of their sins, and that Paul was teaching against obedience to God. While Paul did teach the Body of Christ to "Yield themselves" servants to Obey God, and become servants of His Righteousness, and that Jew and gentile are nothing, but keeping the Commandment of God is what matters, he knew that the manner in which Sins are forgiven, and the manner in which men receive God's Laws, changed when God Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek came".

Paul was simply telling them that remission of Sin, doesn't come from the "LAW of Works" that Moses required for forgiveness. This is the New Covenant, as it is written;

1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, (No Longer the Levitical Priesthood that Abraham never had but) Jesus Christ the righteous:

There is no forgiveness, however, for willful sin. This part of God's instruction in righteousness has never changed.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Great post.

 

[Clare73]

Well said, Paul is teaching about two covenants.
By isolating Rom 3:31 from a vital Christian doctrine, the opposite of what Paul is teaching can be adopted.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith​

Rom 3:21¶But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
(Paul is teaching that the OT (law and the Prophets) prophesied of a new covenant, unlike the one given to Moses (THE LAW)

Rom 3:22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(Everyone will be judged about their sins)
Rom 3:24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
( Faith is all about the one who believes and accepts the blood of Jesus to cleans their sins
Rom 3:27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
(Noone can brag and say I kept the law)
Rom 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
( Paul reinforces verse 21 that faith has nothing to do with the law)

Rom 3:29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
(in context, verse 31 is saying that: living by faith is not breaking God's commandments)

Paul asserts the validity of the law in the process of sanctification (Ro 6-7), and asserts its fulfillment in loving (Ro 13:8-10), "he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." That is sanctification.

That is NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

 

[pasifika]

Well said, Paul is teaching about two covenants.

By isolating Rom 3:31 from a vital Christian doctrine, the opposite of what Paul is teaching can be adopted.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith​

Rom 3:21¶But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
(Paul is teaching that the OT (law and the Prophets) prophesied of a new covenant, unlike the one given to Moses (THE LAW)

Rom 3:22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(Everyone will be judged about their sins)
Rom 3:24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
( Faith is all about the one who believes and accepts the blood of Jesus to cleans their sins
Rom 3:27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
(Noone can brag and say I kept the law)
Rom 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
( Paul reinforces verse 21 that faith has nothing to do with the law)

Rom 3:29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Rom 3:30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
(in context, verse 31 is saying that: living by faith is not breaking God's commandments)

Hi, as you put up those verses from Romans 3. It clearly shown that the goal is to achieve "God's Righteousness" and this Righteousness can only be by "Faith" (law requires Faith) Not "works". (Indicative of the two covenants).

And once Righteousness is achieved then both Faith and works are being fulfilled. I.e all God's commandments are uphold. As you correctly pointed out in Romans 3:31

 

[pasifika]

Yes. How wonderful that you have seen this in Romans 3. "Two Laws". Two Covenants.

Now what was the topic about in Romans 3? In part, that all men have sinned are in need of Salvation from God, Yes? "All have sinned". All have broken God's Commandments. All are equally guilty.

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

So how was a man's Sins forgiven in the Law and Prophets, (Old Covenant) before the Christ Came, that is different now? How were common men justified of their sins (Transgression of God's Commandments) in Moses' time? This is an easy question to answer by just hearing Moses.

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

THIS is the "LAW of Works" the Pharisees were still promoting for the remission of Sins. Paul is telling them that no flesh is Justified by this "Law of Works". That a man who is serving God in repentance and Love, who through ignorance transgresses a Commandment of God "while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; no longer goes to the Levite Priests for forgiveness, but to the Jesus of the Bible, "For the Remission of Sins".

The deceiver promotes that Paul is saying that these Pharisees, who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them, who persecuted and murdered members of God's Church, were trying to get people to OBEY God's Commandments, for the remission of their sins, and that Paul was teaching against obedience to God. While Paul did teach the Body of Christ to "Yield themselves" servants to Obey God, and become servants of His Righteousness, and that Jew and gentile are nothing, but keeping the Commandment of God is what matters, he knew that the manner in which Sins are forgiven, and the manner in which men receive God's Laws, changed when God Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek came".

Paul was simply telling them that remission of Sin, doesn't come from the "LAW of Works" that Moses required for forgiveness. This is the New Covenant, as it is written;

1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, (No Longer the Levitical Priesthood that Abraham never had but) Jesus Christ the righteous:

There is no forgiveness, however, for willful sin. This part of God's instruction in righteousness has never changed.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Great post.

Hi Studyman, Good to see you again. Romans 3: 19-22 is good verses. Spoke to those who broke it (law) and being under it. ( i.e All to those who sins).

And since, all man who "sin" are under this Law, and that leads to "death".

Man need to be "born again" and under a different law (law of Christ, law that requires "Faith") this leads to "life".

 

[Studyman]

Hi Studyman, Good to see you again. Romans 3: 19-22 is good verses. Spoke to those who broke it (law) and being under it. ( i.e All to those who sins).

And since, all man who "sin" are under this Law, and that leads to "death".

Man need to be "born again" and under a different law (law of Christ, law that requires "Faith") this leads to "life".

Yes, the manner in which Sins are forgiven, has changed. No longer do men kill animals before the Levite Priest for their sins to be forgiven. (Ministration of death) These "works of the Law" justify no flesh. To know God is eternal Life, at least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

God's definition of Sin and Righteousness has not changed. The Jesus of the Bible didn't bring a new definition of sin and righteousness, HE said to "Seek God's Righteousness".

Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Be careful of the philosophies and religious traditions of "many" in this world God placed us in, "who come in Christ's Name" my friend. Jesus said to take heed we are not deceived by them.

Jesus said to Seek God's Righteousness which Paul said was revealed in the Law and Prophets that he calls "The Gospel of Christ". He didn't come to bring His Own LAW, or a religion in which you can created your own law, He came to fulfil the Law and Prophets that Paul said were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Good to see you again as well.

 

[Cribstyl]

Hi, as you put up those verses from Romans 3. It clearly shown that the goal is to achieve "God's Righteousness" and this Righteousness can only be by "Faith" (law requires Faith) Not "works". (Indicative of the two covenants).

And once Righteousness is achieved then both Faith and works are being fulfilled. I.e all God's commandments are uphold. As you correctly pointed out in Romans 3:31

I'm not from the camp that believes that the law requires faith. It is written (that "the law is not of faith" Gal 3:12)
I believe that any law requires obedience or you're a law breaker.

 

[Cribstyl]

Yes, the manner in which Sins are forgiven, has changed. No longer do men kill animals before the Levite Priest for their sins to be forgiven. (Ministration of death) These "works of the Law" justify no flesh. To know God is eternal Life, at least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

There should no confusion that, what Paul calls the ministration of death is the ten commandments. THE LAW
2Co 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Ex 34:29-35 explains the glory of Moses countenance and what was written and engraved in stone are THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

You're saying that the ministration of death is the killing of the animal sacrifices.

God's definition of Sin and Righteousness has not changed. The Jesus of the Bible didn't bring a new definition of sin and righteousness, HE said to "Seek God's Righteousness".

Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Be careful of the philosophies and religious traditions of "many" in this world God placed us in, "who come in Christ's Name" my friend. Jesus said to take heed we are not deceived by them.

Jesus said to Seek God's Righteousness which Paul said was revealed in the Law and Prophets that he calls "The Gospel of Christ". He didn't come to bring His Own LAW, or a religion in which you can created your own law, He came to fulfil the Law and Prophets that Paul said were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Your definition of righteousness and of sin are also questionable at best,

 

[HIM]

There should no confusion that, what Paul calls the ministration of death is the ten commandments. THE LAW
2Co 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Ex 34:29-35 explains the glory of Moses countenance and what was written and engraved in stone are THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

That is a bad translation of 2 Corinthians. Written in the KJV is a verb and it is not in the Greek manuscripts. The word there is a noun and means letter like it was translated in verse 6 twice. The ministry of death in Corinthians is the ministry of being told or shown what to do by an outside source. Like the letter (the Book of the Law or tables of stone). The content did not cause death in and of itself, the way it was ministered did. Now we have a new heart established through His Word, His Law through His Spirit. Now we do because we want to through Christ and the Faith we share through Him.



2Cor 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Cor 3:6 ὃς Who καὶ Also ἱκάνωσεν Made Competent ἡμᾶς Us 'As' διακόνους Servants καινῆς Of A New διαθήκης Covenant; οὐ Not γράμματος Of Letter, ἀλλὰ But πνεύματος· Of Spirit; τὸ γὰρ For The γράμμα Letter ἀποκτείνει, Kills, τὸ δὲ But The πνεῦμα Spirit ζῳοποιεῖ Quickens.
2Cor 3:7 Εἰ δὲ But If ἡ The διακονία Service τοῦ θανάτου Of the Death ἐν In γράμμασιν Letters, ἐντετυπωμένη Having Been Engraven ἐν In λίθοις Stones, ἐγενήθη Was Produced ἐν With δόξῃ Glory, ὥστε So As μὴ δύνασθαι Not To Be Able To ἀτενίσαι Look Intently τοὺς The υἱοὺς Children Ἰσραὴλ Of Israel εἰς Into τὸ The πρόσωπον Face Μωσέως Of Moses, διὰ On Account Of τὴν The δόξαν Glory τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ Of His Face, τὴν Which καταργουμένην Is Being Annulled;

 

[Studyman]

There should no confusion that, what Paul calls the ministration of death is the ten commandments. THE LAW
2Co 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Ex 34:29-35 explains the glory of Moses countenance and what was written and engraved in stone are THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

You're saying that the ministration of death is the killing of the animal sacrifices.

"Ministration" means "service or Ministry". Jesus still promoted the "Ten Commandments" as "righteousness". But in His "Ministry" there were no animals killed for the remission of Sins. The definition of SIN didn't change, according to the Christ of the Bible, only the manner in which sins were forgiven.

This is evident by the Biblical Fact that Jesus forgave Sins, therefore, sin still brings death, and needs to be atoned for, but HE never engaged in the Sacrificial "Works of the Law" which required the killing of animals every day, as in Moses' "Ministration of death".

It wasn't the 10 commandments that brought death, it was the transgression of the 10 commandments that brought death.

Moses' ministry dealt with transgressions differently than Jesus' did.

It was the "ministry" that was to be done away with, not the definition of sin.

Your definition of righteousness and of sin are also questionable at best,

Yes, "many" who come in Christ's Name, don't believe Moses and the Prophets, where Paul said God's Righteousness is revealed. And the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time didn't believe Moses either and were also ignorant of God's Righteousness.

But the Jesus "of the Bible" told me to "Seek the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness" Since Paul said these things are revealed in the Law and Prophets, that is where I SEEK for them.

I know that "many" will not be persuaded otherwise, as Jesus tells me this as well.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

My hope is that you might consider what is written, and "take Heed" of the warnings Jesus gave us.

 

[Cribstyl]

That is a bad translation of 2 Corinthians. Written in the KJV is a verb and it is not in the Greek manuscripts. The word there is a noun and means letter like it was translated in verse 6 twice. The ministry of death in Corinthians is the ministry of being told or shown what to do by an outside source. Like the letter (the Book of the Law or tables of stone). The content did not cause death in and of itself, the way it was ministered did. Now we have a new heart established through His Word, His Law through His Spirit. Now we do because we want to through Christ and the Faith we share through Him.



2Cor 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Cor 3:6 ὃς Who καὶ Also ἱκάνωσεν Made Competent ἡμᾶς Us 'As' διακόνους Servants καινῆς Of A New διαθήκης Covenant; οὐ Not γράμματος Of Letter, ἀλλὰ But πνεύματος· Of Spirit; τὸ γὰρ For The γράμμα Letter ἀποκτείνει, Kills, τὸ δὲ But The πνεῦμα Spirit ζῳοποιεῖ Quickens.
2Cor 3:7 Εἰ δὲ But If ἡ The διακονία Service τοῦ θανάτου Of the Death ἐν In γράμμασιν Letters, ἐντετυπωμένη Having Been Engraven ἐν In λίθοις Stones, ἐγενήθη Was Produced ἐν With δόξῃ Glory, ὥστε So As μὴ δύνασθαι Not To Be Able To ἀτενίσαι Look Intently τοὺς The υἱοὺς Children Ἰσραὴλ Of Israel εἰς Into τὸ The πρόσωπον Face Μωσέως Of Moses, διὰ On Account Of τὴν The δόξαν Glory τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ Of His Face, τὴν Which καταργουμένην Is Being Annulled;

Gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked at the Greek manuscript. (TR) and the Latin Vulgate.
TR says Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν καταργουμένην
Translated to English :
But if the ministry of death in a letter imprinted on stones was born in glory so that the children of Israel could not look at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face that was abolished
Latin Vulgate: quod si ministratio mortis litteris deformata in lapidibus fuit in gloria ita ut non possent intendere filii Israhel in faciem Mosi propter gloriam vultus eius quae evacuatur
Translate to English:
that if the ministry of death, deformed by the letters of the stones, was in glory, so that the children of Israel could not look upon the face of Moses, because of the glory of his countenance, which is void

Whether you agree or not.........
The ministry of death is the ten commandments.
The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Whether you agree or not.........
The ministry of death is the ten commandments.
The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.

If one would ponder this statement just for a moment, should come to the conculsion they have a misunderstanding what Paul is trying to teach.

Take example, the very first commandment....

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. So using this logic the letter of the Ten Commandments kills, then we should do the opposite, we should worship other gods, vain God's holy name, murder, covet, commit adultery, it this what Paul is teaching? Absolutely not.

The Ten Commandments is what points out sin when broken. 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20. The Ten Commandments is like a mirror, so we can see our sins, without it, we bury our sins and cannot prosper Pro 28:13 because we do not see our need for Jesus to confess and repent and help us overcome, which is what our salvation is from Mat 1:21 Mat 4:17

Paul says the commandments are holy and just Romans 7:12

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 this is what kills, not the commandments that are holy, just and righteous Psa 119:172

We are to keep the spirit of the law and Jesus teaches us about this right from the Ten Commandments, teaching us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. Mat 5:19-30 What Jesus wants is our hearts changed, which is the New Covenant, the law in our hearts, and if we rid ourselves of thoughts of anger and contempt towards our neighbor, thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept. Jesus is not teaching we can break the letter of the law, He is magnifying what it means to keep the law and if one is keeping the spirit of the law, which is greater than the letter, the letter of every one of the Ten Commandments would be automatically kept. If we are truly walking in His Spirit, we would not be hostile to God's law. Romans 8:1-8. If one is, would be a good time to examine ourselves, to see if one is in the faith, because without faith, we cannot please God Hebrews 11:6 and those with faith uphold God's law Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 because we love Jesus and want to do what He ask of us. 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6

 

[Leaf473]

If one would ponder this statement just for a moment, should come to the conculsion they have a misunderstanding what Paul is trying to teach.

Take example, the very first commandment....

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

So using this logic the letter of the Ten Commandments kills, then we should do the opposite, we should worship other gods, vain God's holy name, murder, covet, commit adultery, it this what Paul is teaching?

There is another option, we can keep the principles in the Ten Commandments. It is the letter that kills, not the principles.

I believe this is the approach you take with the tassels commandment, is it not?

Absolutely not.

The Ten Commandments is what points out sin when broken. 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20. The Ten Commandments is like a mirror, so we can see our sins, without it, we bury our sins and cannot proper Pro 28:13 because we do not see our need for Jesus to repent and confess and help us overcome, which is what our salvation is from Mat 1:21

Paul says the commandments are holy and just Romans 7:12

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 this is what kills, not the commandments that are holy and just and righteous Psa 119:172

We are to keep the spirit of the law and Jesus teaches us about this right from the Ten Commandments, teaching us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. Mat 5:19-30

Yes, we agree there

What Jesus wants is our hearts changed, which is the New Covenant, the law in our hearts, and if we rid ourselves of thoughts of anger and contempt towards our neighbor,

...thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept.

But you can see how this doesn't follow with all laws or in every way. An example is the tassels commandment.

Jesus is not teaching we can break the letter of the law, He is magnifying what it means to keep the law and if one is keeping the spirit of the law, which is greater than the letter, the letter of every one of the Ten Commandments would be automatically kept.

Again, I don't think that follows

If we are truly walking in His Spirit, we would not be hostile to God's law. Romans 8:1-8. If one is, would be a good time to examine ourselves, to see if one is in the faith, because without faith, we cannot please God Hebrews 11:6 and those with faith uphold God's law Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 because we love Jesus and want to do what He ask of us. 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6

Amen, we would keep the principles or spirit. It doesn't follow that the letter is automatically kept.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is another option, we can keep the principles in the Ten Commandments. It is the letter that kills, not the principles.

I believe this is the approach you take with the tassels commandment, is it not?


Yes, we agree there



But you can see how this doesn't follow with all laws or in every way. An example is the tassels commandment.


Again, I don't think that follows



Amen, we would keep the principles or spirit. It doesn't follow that the letter is automatically kept.

Please quote where tassels are in the Ten Commandments or that is it a commandment of God. What was the purpose of those tassels?

There is no scripture that says we can break the letter of the law but keep the principles and the principles are up to our own interpretation. Thats an oxymoron and seems like a dangerous reasoning, if one is wanting to follow God. Jesus said not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments and goes on to quote two examples directly from the Ten, so I will trust His teachings and the examples He established.

 

[Leaf473]

Please quote where tassels are in the Ten Commandments...

They're not in the Ten Commandments. I don't think anyone believes that they are

...or that is it a commandment of God.

Here's a passage

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 15:37-41 - New American Standard Bible

The LORD also spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel and tell them that they shall make for themselves tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a violet thread. It shall be a tassel for you to look...

www.biblegateway.com

Does that not count as something God gave as a commandment?

What was the purpose of those tassels?

I believe it's there in the passage: to remember all the Commandments of God.

There is no scripture that says we can break the letter of the law but keep the principles and the principles are up to our own interpretation.

Well, that was my point Though, hopefully we listen to the Holy Spirit to understand the principles.

Thats an oxymoron and seems like a dangerous reasoning, if one is wanting to follow God.

Yet it is what many people do with the law about the tassels

Jesus said not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments and goes on to quote two examples directly from the Ten, so I will trust His teachings and the examples He established.

He goes on to quote a lot more than just two things, my wonderful sister

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:38 - New American Standard Bible

“You have heard that it was said, ‘EYE FOR EYE, and TOOTH FOR TOOTH.’

www.biblegateway.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

They're not in the Ten Commandments. I don't think anyone believes that they are


Here's a passage

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 15:37-41 - New American Standard Bible

The LORD also spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel and tell them that they shall make for themselves tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a violet thread. It shall be a tassel for you to look...

www.biblegateway.com

Does that not count as something God gave as a commandment?


I believe it's there in the passage: to remember all the Commandments of God.


Well, that was my point Though, hopefully we listen to the Holy Spirit to understand the principles.


Yet it is what many people do with the law about the tassels


He goes on to quote a lot more than just two things, my wonderful sister

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:38 - New American Standard Bible

“You have heard that it was said, ‘EYE FOR EYE, and TOOTH FOR TOOTH.’

www.biblegateway.com

We have God's Word to tell us how to obey God. God's Spirit is not in conflict with His Word, but helps us to remember God's Word John 14:26. So if the spirit is teaching something different than God's Word, that is not coming from God, but the other spirit we are warned about. Isa 8:20

Take care.

 

[Leaf473]

We have God's Word to tell us how to obey God. God's Spirit is not in conflict with His Word, but helps us to remember God's Word John 14:26. So if the spirit is teaching something different than God's Word, that is not coming from God, but the other spirit we are warned about. Isa 8:20

Exactly! And we can see by looking at the law about the tassels
that keeping the spirit or principle of the law
doesn't always mean following the letter.

Take care.

You as well, my sister in Christ

 

[Clare73]

There is another option, we can keep the principles in the Ten Commandments. It is the letter that kills, not the principles.

I believe this is the approach you take with the tassels commandment, is it not?

Exactly! And we can see by looking at the law about the tassels
that keeping the spirit or principle of the law
doesn't always mean following the letter.

In 2 Co 3:6, the letter is the law, and the Spirit is the Holy Spirit who gives life (Ro 2:29).

Neither kills, it is violation of the letter (law) that kills (Ro 6:23), while the Holy Spirit gives life.

 

[Leaf473]

The letter is the law, and the Spirit is the Holy Spirit in 2 Co 3:6 (Ro 2:29).

Neither kills, it is violation of the letter (law) that kills (Ro 6:23).

Do you believe we are to keep the letters of the laws given through Moses?

 

[Clare73]

Do you believe we are to keep the letters of the laws given through Moses?

The letter is the law.
So you are asking if we are to keep the law.

In the NT, "he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." (Ro 13:8).
"the commandments. . .are summed up in one rule" (Ro 13:9)
"love is the fulfillment of the law" (Ro 13:10).
"All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments (Mt 22:40), love God and love of neighbor as self (Mt 22: 37-39).