Christian Viewpoint On The Gun Debate

[dogs4thewin]

I don't agree. That's reading alot of assumptions into the text that aren't warranted, given the overall context of the passage.

In the American context, "safety and protection" was used as a pretext to commit genocide against Native Americans, oppress African-Americans, and objectify and infantilize women. So this isn't an unproblematic notion. "Safety and protection" has always been what people use to justify violence and aggression.

At any rate, it takes a lot of lack of imagination to think the only way to respond to potential violence is with more violence.

sometimes you can respond to violence with peace that is always what is prefered if you can talk someone down or avoid certain situations; however there are sometimes people who only understand violence and in those cases in this fallen world violence is the best ( and sometimes only) way to deal with them.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Except that even the guns that are military grade usually are not they make civilian versions that do not have burst mode. Additionally bump stocks were banned a few years ago. How much good that actually did I do not know, but the point is that true "military grade machine guns or autmadtic weapons are not in civilian hands.

An AR15 is not military grade?
"Compared to handguns, AR-15s inflict much more damage to human tissue because of the faster speed at which the rifles fire bullets. Those projectiles are also more likely to break apart as they pass through the body, inflicting more damage. That makes victims more likely to have more serious injuries and more blood loss and more likely to die than with guns that fire with lower velocities.

AR-15s are popular in part because they are relatively easy to use. They have comparatively little recoil and can be customized with accessories, such as optics, scopes and pistol grips that improve comfort and accuracy."

The AR15 is based on a military weapon.

 

[dogs4thewin]

An AR15 is not military grade?
"Compared to handguns, AR-15s inflict much more damage to human tissue because of the faster speed at which the rifles fire bullets. Those projectiles are also more likely to break apart as they pass through the body, inflicting more damage. That makes victims more likely to have more serious injuries and more blood loss and more likely to die than with guns that fire with lower velocities.

AR-15s are popular in part because they are relatively easy to use. They have comparatively little recoil and can be customized with accessories, such as optics, scopes and pistol grips that improve comfort and accuracy."

The AR15 is based on a military weapon.

However, the civilian version is NOT the same for one it does not have a burst mode. That means that a single pull of the trigger releases as many rounds as opposed to three.

Also, just because they are easy to use and may take more lives at one time does NOT mean that they take more lives overall.

I am typing this quickly so I will give you an example if you asks, but for right now let me asks you if these were your choices you could save 100 people OR a 1,000 people but NOT both which would make more sense?

 

[Derf]

An AR15 is not military grade?
"Compared to handguns, AR-15s inflict much more damage to human tissue because of the faster speed at which the rifles fire bullets. Those projectiles are also more likely to break apart as they pass through the body, inflicting more damage. That makes victims more likely to have more serious injuries and more blood loss and more likely to die than with guns that fire with lower velocities.

AR-15s are popular in part because they are relatively easy to use. They have comparatively little recoil and can be customized with accessories, such as optics, scopes and pistol grips that improve comfort and accuracy."

The AR15 is based on a military weapon.

All fire arms are based on military weapons and vice versa--military weapons are based on civilian weapons.

 

[Divide]

Ill gotten mammon is the mercy and grace God has shown us through our creation and preservation, despite our unworthiness. We are to use those gifts for God's glory and the benefit of our neighbor. It is difficult for me to reconcile a fearful, mistrustful mindset of needing to own weapons and prepare for violence, with loving God or my neighbor. At the very least, it seems foolish to me.

I think I know what you're saying. We're at the two biggest commandments there. We are to love God withh all our heart mind & strength and the 2nd likewise to love our neighbors as we would ourself. That passage doesn't really point out that we are to do this in a hostile environment where they will hate us and try to kill us because they hated the Lord and killed Him first.

And that certainly makes it interesting to set off upon a path of obedience to the Lord to love them more than they can hate us. But like is written, it is the sick that need a Physician.

So where does that leave us? Jesus did tell us that, yes boys have a sword or two because some of them will not receive love from you because they hate Me. And so the scenario is ok you Christians show me love like you are supposed to, while they are drawing a gun on me. I'm sorry, it dont work that way because they are liars and sent to for 3 reasons. To steal, kill and destroy. It's very hard to show love to someone who would kill you and may even be trying. So if that is the direction that they wish to force the situation into...yes I have a gun too. So we get to find out who's practiced up more?

It is difficult for me to reconcile a fearful, mistrustful mindset of needing to own weapons and prepare for violence, with loving God or my neighbor. At the very least, it seems foolish to me.

That's a fairly good point there. But we should remember that He is a God that never changes, the God who tells the end from the beginning. The Lord ordered the Hebrews into battles repeatedly. Do you believe that? King David is said to be a man after God's own heart, and as the song goes, David kills 10,000 where Saul his 1000's and this is the man after God's own heart! I'm not glorifying violence or war but I am making the point that, it happens. And it's always been happening from early on in Genesis to Revelation now. Have a sword or two you guys...in this world you will have tribulation and persecution. So how can you reasonably say that Christians can not fight without eternal consequences or damage to their soul. It just doesnt make sense to me. The end times are upon us and through the evil of the beast more than half of the world will die.
Essentially what you are saying is, don't fight back.

That is not biblical. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Just to be sure, what does resist mean? ...and the gates of Hell will not prevail over us. (That sure sounds like a conflict going on there!)

So I can not agree with your model of a Pacifist God in general. This is the sane God that didnt like the young punks mocking His priest so he sent a Grizzley Bear down there and roughed all those kids up.
In the new testament it speaks of a place where there will be no strife. Newsflash! That is in Heaven, the New Jerusalem. We will have plenty of strife on this earth so to go unarmed even though kind hearted people have advised me to lay my guns down...Uhhh, I can not do that.

 

[Divide]

All fire arms are based on military weapons and vice versa--military weapons are based on civilian weapons.

Mine has a pistol grip. Do I have a good gun or a bad gun?

Lol. Weapons are weapons, period. Military weapons...assault weapons...all that trash talk is spouted to be a distraction from the real issue and even that they dont have any real power to regulate the citizens weapons. God is the one who puts nations in place and when He was making the US into a nation God had them put a reminder in a document that says, don't even try to mess with private arms.

So if God saw fit to put that in there, then am I bright enough to take the hint? Well yes, yes I am.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Mine has a pistol grip. Do I have a good gun or a bad gun?

Lol. Weapons are weapons, period. Military weapons...assault weapons...all that trash talk is spouted to be a distraction from the real issue and even that they dont have any real power to regulate the citizens weapons. God is the one who puts nations in place and when He was making the US into a nation God had them put a reminder in a document that says, don't even try to mess with private arms.

So if God saw fit to put that in there, then am I bright enough to take the hint? Well yes, yes I am.

and just about anything can be a weapon if used in such a way.

 

[Divide]

It's not money, but the mammon that Jesus spoke of through his parables (Luke 16).

Do you really know the Bible as well as you think you do? Everything I am saying is based on the Bible.

I didnt answer this off the cuff because I do like to be precise. So I did a quick word study in the blue letter bible on that word and it seems that it can be translated as wealth, Treasure. or riches. Here, have a look:

G3126 - mamōnas - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3126 - μαμμωνᾶς mammōnâs, mam-mo-nas'; of Chaldee origin (confidence, i.e. wealth, personified); mammonas, i.e. avarice (deified):—mammon.

www.blueletterbible.org

I thought I was using the right translation for that, but it's good to be sure.

 

[YorkieGal]

Imagine caring if something is military grade or not as though the military has the moral right to use certain arms that the civilian population shouldn't have.....goodness me.

 

[FireDragon76]

I didnt answer this off the cuff because I do like to be precise. So I did a quick word study in the blue letter bible on that word and it seems that it can be translated as wealth, Treasure. or riches. Here, have a look:

G3126 - mamōnas - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3126 - μαμμωνᾶς mammōnâs, mam-mo-nas'; of Chaldee origin (confidence, i.e. wealth, personified); mammonas, i.e. avarice (deified):—mammon.

www.blueletterbible.org

I thought I was using the right translation for that, but it's good to be sure.

Jesus uses mammon in the Parable of the Unjust Steward as an analogy for God's grace.

 

[FireDragon76]

Mine has a pistol grip. Do I have a good gun or a bad gun?

Lol. Weapons are weapons, period. Military weapons...assault weapons...all that trash talk is spouted to be a distraction from the real issue and even that they dont have any real power to regulate the citizens weapons. God is the one who puts nations in place and when He was making the US into a nation God had them put a reminder in a document that says, don't even try to mess with private arms.

Are you implying the US Constitution is a divinely inspired document? Last time I checked, that is only an orthodox belief in Mormonism.

 

[Divide]

and just about anything can be a weapon if used in such a way.

A "mass shooting" is four or more victims? So what if one of our special forces guys finishes his 2 or 3 tours and comes home and just happens to not have a pistol on him but he does have a pen, and he goes John Wick on them and kills all four of them with a ballpoint pen.

Then will those terrible Assault Pens off the market for untrained civilians?!

The only prudent thing that a person can do is set engagement standards for yourself because you are likely to be attacked one day! If he needs something that I have, I would rather give it to him to help him...But is he humble enough to speak to me and say I need help? If he is then I will gladly help him as I am able to.

But if he is not humble and starts pulling guns and stuff, all bets are off. And that is not my choice, that is his decision.

 

[Postvieww]

I don't agree. That's reading alot of assumptions into the text that aren't warranted, given the overall context of the passage.

In the American context, "safety and protection" was used as a pretext to commit genocide against Native Americans, oppress African-Americans, and objectify and infantilize women. So this isn't an unproblematic notion. "Safety and protection" has always been what people use to justify violence and aggression.

At any rate, it takes a lot of lack of imagination to think the only way to respond to potential violence is with more violence.

No problem, you are free to disagree. So answer this question. If you came home to find your wife or daughter being attacked or raped would you protect your family with whatever means necessary or rely on a pacifist approach?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think I know what you're saying. We're at the two biggest commandments there. We are to love God withh all our heart mind & strength and the 2nd likewise to love our neighbors as we would ourself. That passage doesn't really point out that we are to do this in a hostile environment where they will hate us and try to kill us because they hated the Lord and killed Him first.

And that certainly makes it interesting to set off upon a path of obedience to the Lord to love them more than they can hate us. But like is written, it is the sick that need a Physician.

So where does that leave us? Jesus did tell us that, yes boys have a sword or two because some of them will not receive love from you because they hate Me. And so the scenario is ok you Christians show me love like you are supposed to, while they are drawing a gun on me. I'm sorry, it dont work that way because they are liars and sent to for 3 reasons. To steal, kill and destroy. It's very hard to show love to someone who would kill you and may even be trying. So if that is the direction that they wish to force the situation into...yes I have a gun too. So we get to find out who's practiced up more?



That's a fairly good point there. But we should remember that He is a God that never changes, the God who tells the end from the beginning. The Lord ordered the Hebrews into battles repeatedly. Do you believe that? King David is said to be a man after God's own heart, and as the song goes, David kills 10,000 where Saul his 1000's and this is the man after God's own heart! I'm not glorifying violence or war but I am making the point that, it happens. And it's always been happening from early on in Genesis to Revelation now. Have a sword or two you guys...in this world you will have tribulation and persecution. So how can you reasonably say that Christians can not fight without eternal consequences or damage to their soul. It just doesnt make sense to me. The end times are upon us and through the evil of the beast more than half of the world will die.
Essentially what you are saying is, don't fight back.

That is not biblical. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Just to be sure, what does resist mean? ...and the gates of Hell will not prevail over us. (That sure sounds like a conflict going on there!)

So I can not agree with your model of a Pacifist God in general. This is the sane God that didnt like the young punks mocking His priest so he sent a Grizzley Bear down there and roughed all those kids up.
In the new testament it speaks of a place where there will be no strife. Newsflash! That is in Heaven, the New Jerusalem. We will have plenty of strife on this earth so to go unarmed even though kind hearted people have advised me to lay my guns down...Uhhh, I can not do that.

I think I know what you're saying. We're at the two biggest commandments there. We are to love God withh all our heart mind & strength and the 2nd likewise to love our neighbors as we would ourself. That passage doesn't really point out that we are to do this in a hostile environment where they will hate us and try to kill us because they hated the Lord and killed Him first.

And that certainly makes it interesting to set off upon a path of obedience to the Lord to love them more than they can hate us. But like is written, it is the sick that need a Physician.

So where does that leave us? Jesus did tell us that, yes boys have a sword or two because some of them will not receive love from you because they hate Me. And so the scenario is ok you Christians show me love like you are supposed to, while they are drawing a gun on me. I'm sorry, it dont work that way because they are liars and sent to for 3 reasons. To steal, kill and destroy. It's very hard to show love to someone who would kill you and may even be trying. So if that is the direction that they wish to force the situation into...yes I have a gun too. So we get to find out who's practiced up more?

That's a fairly good point there. But we should remember that He is a God that never changes, the God who tells the end from the beginning. The Lord ordered the Hebrews into battles repeatedly. Do you believe that? King David is said to be a man after God's own heart, and as the song goes, David kills 10,000 where Saul his 1000's and this is the man after God's own heart! I'm not glorifying violence or war but I am making the point that, it happens. And it's always been happening from early on in Genesis to Revelation now. Have a sword or two you guys...in this world you will have tribulation and persecution. So how can you reasonably say that Christians can not fight without eternal consequences or damage to their soul. It just doesnt make sense to me. The end times are upon us and through the evil of the beast more than half of the world will die.
Essentially what you are saying is, don't fight back.

No, Jesus wasn't authorizing the use of weapons by Christians when, just before His passion in Gethsemane, He told His disciples to "... take a sword." Do you understand WHY it isn't and never was the authorization that you're attempting to interpret as?

If you don't, you need to study Biblical Exegesis and Hermeneutics.

That is not biblical. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Just to be sure, what does resist mean? ...and the gates of Hell will not prevail over us. (That sure sounds like a conflict going on there!)

So I can not agree with your model of a Pacifist God in general. This is the sane God that didnt like the young punks mocking His priest so he sent a Grizzley Bear down there and roughed all those kids up.
In the new testament it speaks of a place where there will be no strife. Newsflash! That is in Heaven, the New Jerusalem. We will have plenty of strife on this earth so to go unarmed even though kind hearted people have advised me to lay my guns down...Uhhh, I can not do that.

You're pushing this to the edge where it begins to be a very questionable conversation.

 

[dogs4thewin]

A "mass shooting" is four or more victims? So what if one of our special forces guys finishes his 2 or 3 tours and comes home and just happens to not have a pistol on him but he does have a pen, and he goes John Wick on them and kills all four of them with a ballpoint pen.

Then will those terrible Assault Pens off the market for untrained civilians?!

The only prudent thing that a person can do is set engagement standards for yourself because you are likely to be attacked one day! If he needs something that I have, I would rather give it to him to help him...But is he humble enough to speak to me and say I need help? If he is then I will gladly help him as I am able to.

But if he is not humble and starts pulling guns and stuff, all bets are off. And that is not my choice, that is his decision.

A mass shooting for purposes of civilian shootings that make the news, but here is no qualifies there, so if a married father with three children living at home shoots and kills the whole family in a murder/suicide that is considered a mass shooting ( even though that probably would not make the records as such outside of the local area. If there is a gang fight with two gangs and say seven people are shot that would be a mass shooting even though likely all parties would be engaged in criminal activites ( This is particularly true if not all the gang members shot. If a person goes to rob a store and say shoots five people inside that is a mass shooting( even though the motive was to commit another crime and not just to go in and kill as many people as they could for the heck of it.

 

[Divide]

Are you implying the US Constitution is a divinely inspired document? Last time I checked, that is only an orthodox belief in Mormonism.

Why you pigeonholing me? Lol. Do you ever feel like, you're on slippery ground?

Could you perhaps make an effort to speak as a reasonable man does without that sort of thing? Do you hold me to be, the enemy? That is not so and you should know that by now.

For one who has pretty much continually chided me in this thread about I should go the way of the Lord and His Love instead of choosing violence like it is a prefrence for me, I believe you have destroyed your credibility with your off color comments.

Why dont you speak to me with the same kind of Love that you piously tell me that I should be able to do for someone who may be attacking me?! And we're not even fighting!

Am I the enemy? You are leaving a couple contradictions open ended from a comaprison of your words vs your behavior and speech patterns? What's throwing you off there? Is it because you really are a gun owner and thats causing you trouble

(Now have a sense of humor, that last line was a joke...)

 

[FireDragon76]

No problem, you are free to disagree. So answer this question. If you came home to find your wife or daughter being attacked or raped would you protect your family with whatever means necessary or rely on a pacifist approach?

First off, I object to such a ridiculously offensive hypothetical question. Being a pacifist doesn't mean being a coward, or indifferent, or passive.

And, what exactly do you mean by "protect your family"? Somehow I think alot of Americans of a certain political or cultural persuasion take a "Dirty Harry" approach as legitimate, that any amount of violence is permissable in kind. I disagree.

 

[Divide]

Are you implying the US Constitution is a divinely inspired document? Last time I checked, that is only an orthodox belief in Mormonism.

Say what?!

I did not say that so dont put words in my mouth. However I must ask...do you think that God does not put Kings into place? Does not put Presidents into place? Do you think that God is NOT in control of government?

All of that is scripture and you should know that?

 

[Divide]

And, what exactly do you mean by "protect your family"?

I think this might be the silliest question so far today.

Protect my family. Hmm, I wonder what that could mean?!

 

[dogs4thewin]

First off, I object to such a ridiculously offensive hypothetical question. Being a pacifist doesn't mean being a coward, or indifferent, or passive.

And, what exactly do you mean by "protect your family"? Somehow I think alot of Americans of a certain political or cultural persuasion take a "Dirty Harry" approach as legitimate, that any amount of violence is permissable in kind. I disagree.

There are always going to be people that shoot too quickly sometimes this is because they unreasonably fear for their lives more than that they are a violent person ( that is why in such cases there are lower criminal charges that can be filed against such people in such cases. Yes under the law you may use reasonable force to stop an attack. What do you think is reasonable when violence is used against you and/ or yours? Again, would you not call the police or would you have a problem with another ( even civilian) party using violence to protect you if violence was being used against you or would you simply trust God and let it happen? What if it was not you but your family?