Is sinning necessary

[Gary K]

What does scripture say about it?

Job 1: 6 ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.*n5*n6 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?*n7

Perfect is translated from:
[*StrongsHebrew*]
3477
ישׁר
yâshâr yaw-shawr'
From H3474; straight (literally or figuratively): - {convenient} {equity} {Jasher} {just} meet ({-est}) + pleased well right ({-eous}) {straight} (most) upright ({-ly} -ness).

Straight is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
8535
תּם
tâm tawm
From H8552; complete; usually (morally) pious; specifically {gentle} dear: - coupled {together} {perfect} {plain} {undefiled} upright.

Paul uses a Greek word in Ephesians 4.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05046
τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os
from 5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588)

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05083
THRE/W τηρέω tēréō tay-reh'-o from τερός terós, (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334);
to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03141
μαρτυρία martyría, mar-too-ree'-ah
from 3144;
evidence given (judicially or genitive case):--record, report, testimony, witness.

Paul uses a very similar word in 2Corinthians 1: 5.

1Corinthians 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

It is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
03142
μαρτύριον martýrion, mar-too'-ree-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 3144;
something evidential, i.e. (genitive case) evidence given or (specially), the Decalogue (in the sacred Tabernacle):--to be testified, testimony, witness.

Moses tells us what the testimony is
.

16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Testimony is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
5715
עדוּת
‛êdûth ay-dooth'
Feminine of H5707; testimony: - {testimony} witness.

So is sinning necessary? Not according to scripture. Job was perfect according to God, and scripture tells us there will be a people who will no longer sin at the time of the end.

 

[Gary K]

Let's look at what Paul has to say about perfection.

1Corinthians 2: 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Corinthians 7: 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1Corinthians 12: 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2Corinthians 15: 7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

2Corinthians 13: 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Galatians 3: 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Ephesians 4: 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I think this is enough to demonstrate the truth. Paul believed in the possibility of moral perfection through the power of God. IOWs he fully believed we are capable of keeping the commandments of God.

 

[Cribstyl]

What does scripture say about it?

Job 1: 6 ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.*n5*n6 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?*n7

Perfect is translated from:
[*StrongsHebrew*]
3477
ישׁר
yâshâr yaw-shawr'
From H3474; straight (literally or figuratively): - {convenient} {equity} {Jasher} {just} meet ({-est}) + pleased well right ({-eous}) {straight} (most) upright ({-ly} -ness).

Straight is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
8535
תּם
tâm tawm
From H8552; complete; usually (morally) pious; specifically {gentle} dear: - coupled {together} {perfect} {plain} {undefiled} upright.

Paul uses a Greek word in Ephesians 4.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05046
τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os
from 5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588)

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05083
THRE/W τηρέω tēréō tay-reh'-o from τερός terós, (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334);
to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03141
μαρτυρία martyría, mar-too-ree'-ah
from 3144;
evidence given (judicially or genitive case):--record, report, testimony, witness.

Paul uses a very similar word in 2Corinthians 1: 5.

1Corinthians 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

It is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
03142
μαρτύριον martýrion, mar-too'-ree-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 3144;
something evidential, i.e. (genitive case) evidence given or (specially), the Decalogue (in the sacred Tabernacle):--to be testified, testimony, witness.

Moses tells us what the testimony is
.

16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Testimony is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
5715
עדוּת
‛êdûth ay-dooth'
Feminine of H5707; testimony: - {testimony} witness.

So is sinning necessary? Not according to scripture. Job was perfect according to God, and scripture tells us there will be a people who will no longer sin at the time of the end.

Respectfully sir,
definition of isolated words can create fiction over facts. By your understanding, Job was qualified to die for the sins of all mankind. Christ came to die for the world because no man past and future would ever qualify.
If you lock yourself in a mountain sinning could be hard to perform, but if you're married., you will sin. (joke)

 

[HIM]

What does scripture say about it?

Job 1: 6 ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.*n5*n6 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?*n7

Perfect is translated from:
[*StrongsHebrew*]
3477
ישׁר
yâshâr yaw-shawr'
From H3474; straight (literally or figuratively): - {convenient} {equity} {Jasher} {just} meet ({-est}) + pleased well right ({-eous}) {straight} (most) upright ({-ly} -ness).

Straight is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
8535
תּם
tâm tawm
From H8552; complete; usually (morally) pious; specifically {gentle} dear: - coupled {together} {perfect} {plain} {undefiled} upright.

Paul uses a Greek word in Ephesians 4.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05046
τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os
from 5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588)

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05083
THRE/W τηρέω tēréō tay-reh'-o from τερός terós, (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334);
to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03141
μαρτυρία martyría, mar-too-ree'-ah
from 3144;
evidence given (judicially or genitive case):--record, report, testimony, witness.

Paul uses a very similar word in 2Corinthians 1: 5.

1Corinthians 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

It is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
03142
μαρτύριον martýrion, mar-too'-ree-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 3144;
something evidential, i.e. (genitive case) evidence given or (specially), the Decalogue (in the sacred Tabernacle):--to be testified, testimony, witness.

Moses tells us what the testimony is
.

16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Testimony is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
5715
עדוּת
‛êdûth ay-dooth'
Feminine of H5707; testimony: - {testimony} witness.

So is sinning necessary? Not according to scripture. Job was perfect according to God, and scripture tells us there will be a people who will no longer sin at the time of the end.

Nice!

Testimony of Jesus? What was His testimony? The Ten? Oh my friend so much more. Was it not "Me and my Father are One, and He doeth the work"?

 

[HIM]

Respectfully sir,
definition of isolated words can create fiction over facts. By your understanding, Job was qualified to die for the sins of all mankind. Christ came to die for the world because no man past and future would ever qualify.

Without Him! But through Him all things are possible to them who believe.

If you lock yourself in a mountain sinning could be hard to perform, but if you're married., you will sin. (joke)

Nothing but a Stumbling block. What we say and think is what we are.

 

[Cribstyl]

Let's look at what Paul has to say about perfection.


I think this is enough to demonstrate the truth. Paul believed in the possibility of moral perfection through the power of God. IOWs he fully believed we are capable of keeping the commandments of God.

Considering the facts in this context, we have to consider that translated words can have an assortment of definition What is Paul saying? 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

It seems clear to most, that Paul is defining "maturity" and not perfection according to your views.

 

[Cribstyl]

Without Him! But through Him all things are possible to them who believe.

Amen.

Nothing but a Stumbling block. What we say and think is what we are.

Chances are good that; if you put 4 crabs in a bucket, someone is going to get pinched. lol.

Is it fact or fiction that Christ was predestined to die for sins before sin was in the world?

 

[Gary K]

Respectfully sir,
definition of isolated words can create fiction over facts. By your understanding, Job was qualified to die for the sins of all mankind. Christ came to die for the world because no man past and future would ever qualify.
If you lock yourself in a mountain sinning could be hard to perform, but if you're married., you will sin. (joke)

No. Job was not qualified for that. Jesus never sinned. The rest if have all sinned. Spiritual growth is a process as Paul clearly demonstrates.

Ephesians 4: 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul says that we are capable of reaching the stature of the fulness of Christ. Does that mean we can save ourselves? Nope.

 

[Gary K]

@Cribstyl

Considering the facts in this context, we have to consider that translated words can have an assortment of definition What is Paul saying? 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

It seems clear to most, that Paul is defining "maturity" and not perfection according to your views.

Of course Paul is defining maturity, Spiritual maturity.

Ephesians 4: 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The word perfecting is translated from:
[*StrongsGreek*]

02677
καταρτισμός katartismós, kat-ar-tis-mos'
from 2675;
complete furnishing (objectively):--perfecting.

edifying is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
03619
οἰκοδομή oikodomḗ, oy-kod-om-ay'
feminine (abstract) of a compound of 3624 and the base of 1430;
architecture, i.e. (concretely) a structure; figuratively, confirmation:--building, edify(-ication, -ing).

From the online word web dictionary confirmation means:

Noun: confirmation ,kón-fu(r)'mey-shun

1. Additional proof that something that was believed (some fact, hypothesis or theory) is correct
   "fossils provided further confirmation of the evolutionary theory";
   - verification, check, substantiation
2. Information that confirms or verifies
3. Making something valid by formally ratifying or confirming it
   "confirmation of the appointment";
   - ratification
4. A ceremony held in the synagogue (usually at Pentecost) to admit as adult members of the Jewish community young men and women who have successfully completed a course of study in Judaism
5. A sacrament admitting a baptized person to full participation in the church

Ratification means:

Noun: ratification ,ra-ti-fi'key-shun

1. Making something valid by formally ratifying or confirming it
   "the ratification of the treaty";
   - confirmation

 

[Gary K]

Amen.

Chances are good that; if you put 4 crabs in a bucket, someone is going to get pinched. lol.

Is it fact or fiction that Christ was predestined to die for sins before sin was in the world?

Of course He was. Your point?

 

[Gary K]

Respectfully sir,
definition of isolated words can create fiction over facts. By your understanding, Job was qualified to die for the sins of all mankind. Christ came to die for the world because no man past and future would ever qualify.
If you lock yourself in a mountain sinning could be hard to perform, but if you're married., you will sin. (joke)

If you never sinned again from this moment on would you still need a Saviour?

 

[Cribstyl]

No. Job was not qualified for that. Jesus never sinned. The rest if have all sinned. Spiritual growth is a process as Paul clearly demonstrates.

If Job or any man was perfect (never sinned) we would not need Christ.
A lamb without blemish is the sinless sacrifice that God required for sin. True or False?

The Hebrew and Greek word for perfect does not always translate or fit your arguments that we can be perfect.

Paul says that we are capable of reaching the stature of the fulness of Christ. Does that mean we can save ourselves? Nope.

Im guessing that you're implying by keeping the law.
You're not presenting doctrines taught by Paul,

 

[Cribstyl]

Of course He was. Your point?

God knew beforehand that we would sin and that no man would or could be perfect. (no sin) That's why He sent His Son.

 

[Gary K]

If Job or any man was perfect (never sinned) we would not need Christ.
A lamb without blemish is the sinless sacrifice that God required for sin. True or False?

The Hebrew and Greek word for perfect does not always translate or fit your arguments that we can be perfect.


Im guessing that you're implying by keeping the law.
You're not presenting doctrines taught by Paul,

Yes it does. You're ignoring the word definitions I've posted.

Of course the lamb without blemish represented Jesus.

1Corinthians 2: 6 usage of perfect.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05046
τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os
from 5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

1Corinthians 12: 10 uses the same Greek word.

2Corinthians 7: 10 uses the following:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02005
ἐπιτελέω epiteléō, ep-ee-tel-eh'-o
from 1909 and 5055;
to fulfill further (or completely), i.e. execute; by implication, to terminate, undergo:--accomplish, do, finish, (make) (perfect), perform(X -ance).

2Corinthians 12 9 uses the same word as the first two verses in this list.

2Corinthians 13: 9 uses the following.

[*StrongsGreek*]
02676
κατάρτισις katártisis, kat-ar'-tis-is
from 2675;
thorough equipment (subjectively):--perfection.

2Corinthians 13: 11 uses the following:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02675
καταρτίζω katartízō, kat-ar-tid'-zo
from 2596 and a derivative of 739;
to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

Ephesians 4: 12 uses the following.

[*StrongsGreek*]
02677
καταρτισμός katartismós, kat-ar-tis-mos'
from 2675;
complete furnishing (objectively):--perfecting.

That demonstrates pretty conclusively that these are not isolated texts and that Paul believed just what scripture demonstrates he said. You're welcome to reject it but you will never get me to agree with you.

 

[Gary K]

God knew beforehand that we would sin and that no man would or could be perfect. (no sin) That's why He sent His Son.

No one has been perfect other than Jesus. You're once again ignoring the fact that I've posted scripture showing spiritual growth is a process.

 

[Gary K]

I keep thinking of more scripture along these lines.

Hebrews 12: 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The Greek word for author is:

[*StrongsGreek*]
00747
ἀρχηγός archēgós, ar-khay-gos'
from 746 and 71;
a chief leader:--author, captain, prince.

The Greek word for finisher is:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05051
τελειωτής teleiōtḗs, tel-i-o-tace'
from 5048;
a completer, i.e. consummater:--finisher.

 

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[St. Helens]

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[Gary K]

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[Gary K]

Let's look at the books John wrote for our next lesson in righteousness by faith.

1John 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How let's look at Strong's to see the underlying meaning from the Greek.

Manifested comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05319
φανερόω phaneróō, fan-er-o'-o
from 5318;
to render apparent (literally or figuratively):--appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).

Bear witness comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
03140
μαρτυρέω martyréō, mar-too-reh'-o
from 3144;
to be a witness, i.e. testify (literally or figuratively):--charge, give (evidence), bear record, have (obtain, of) good (honest) report, be well reported of, testify, give (have) testimony, (be, bear, give, obtain) witness.

Shew comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
00518
ἀπαγγέλλω apangéllō, ap-ang-el'-lo
from 575 and the base of 32;
to announce:--bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.

Eternal comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
00166
αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os
from 165;
perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Fellowship comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02842
κοινωνία koinōnía, koy-nohn-ee'-ah
from 2844;
partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction:--(to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

Joy comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05479
χαρά chará, khar-ah'
from 5463;
cheerfulness, i.e. calm delight:--gladness, X greatly, (X be exceeding) joy(-ful, -fully, -fulness, -ous).

Live comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
04043
περιπατέω peripatéō, per-ee-pat-eh'-o
from 4012 and 3961;
to tread all around, i.e. walk at large (especially as proof of ability); figuratively, to live, deport oneself, follow (as a companion or votary):--go, be occupied with, walk (about).

Live comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
04653
σκοτία skotía, skot-ee'-ah
from 4655;
dimness, obscurity (literally or figuratively):--dark(-ness).

Deceive comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
04105
πλανάω planáō, plan-ah'-o
from 4106;
to (properly, cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue):--go astray, deceive, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way.

Cleanseth comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02511
καθαρίζω katharízō, kath-ar-id'-zo
from 2513;
to cleanse (literally or figuratively):--(make) clean(-se), purge, purify.

All comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
03956
πᾶς pâs, pas
including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word;
all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.